Plus and minuses bushed rockers vs needle bearing.

[ScotiaFE]

For big dog spring pressures, I don't want something held to the head by (4) bolts or studs.  I pulled a rocker stud out of an aluminum head with 650 lbs open pressure once.   Don't ever want it to happen again.  I use race T&D setups for all of my aluminum FE solid roller setups.  Just can't afford any issues and would rather have it done right from the get-go.

I've got over 2000 of miles on Ersons this summer and running pretty close to 650 on the street.
Not to mention some passes with a goof at the helm.
Everything looks good.

I think this new Harland Shape setup looks pretty stout.
I'd give it a spin on my junk.

[blykins]

Didn't you replace the heilcoils with timeserts Howie?  I'm sure that added to the reliability.  On my customer stuff, the difference between street t&d and race t&d is only a couple hundred smacks, so I just choose to go whole hog.  The race setup is about as good as it gets.

[turbohunter]

That's a good point for us guys using BBMs Brent.

[cjshaker]

Hmm, seems I missed the "new" part of your original post. I wasn't aware of that newer HS system. Looks like a nice system, but I'd have to side with Brent on the T&D Race system for big springs and aluminum heads. 4 bolts just won't cut it. That new set-up looks nice for a hot street engine or with iron heads and something less than the spring pressures mentioned above. Although it doesn't look any better than the Oregon Cams support system that I use, so I wonder if it's cheaper or more expensive.

I forget who made that set that Keith posted, but I doubt you'll be able to find them. I remember them from years back, but have NEVER seen a set at any swap meet, let alone on any car. I do remember that Mario made a set from scratch that was similar in concept, years back. But he's pretty adept at using CAD programs and has access to CNC equipment. They did look nice though.

[turbohunter]

Get it all. Not arguing. Just reporting.
The HS guys told Jared 800-900 lbs.

"They looked very nice. The guy said they should handle 8-900lbs open pressure no problem. I asked him if someone has a stout setup, if they would make a stand base to tie into the head bolts like T&D. He said he would think about it for future design, so I guess we'll see."

[cjshaker]

The HS guys told Jared 800-900 lbs.

Salesmen and PR guys will say just about anything   My first question to them would have been "So how many 800-900 lb spring systems have you tested these on?"

[Nightmist66]

The HS guys told Jared 800-900 lbs.

Salesmen and PR guys will say just about anything   My first question to them would have been "So how many 800-900 lb spring systems have you tested these on?"

I knew when he told me that, the factory mounting was not going to be sufficient to hold that spring pressure. I have a feeling he meant the rocker arm itself will withstand that pressure. That's why I asked him if they would look into an alternative stand that ties into the head bolts.

fekbmax- I did mention to him it will not work with a solid lifter block. He said he just learned of that recently, but I doubt the oiling will be changed.

[cjshaker]

After looking at that stand system better, I don't like it. Except for near each end, there's absolutely nothing clamping the shaft down from bolt to bolt, and it's only the bolts. Regular stands are supporting/clamping at least 1 1/2" on either side of each pair of rockers. With that new system, that's a long space with nothing holding the shaft. Solid or not, it can flex with high spring pressures. It seems like a step backwards from the Oregon system. Why they didn't at least provide a clamping system at each bolt is beyond me.

[Nightmist66]

Hey Doug, not pictured are the two center hold downs like stock. It has aluminum "caps" to cover the top half of the shaft and provide a wider surface for the hold down bolt/stud. It uses 4 standard bolt/studs to secure to the head and the smaller bolts clamping the shaft further to the stand. With a solid shaft and stand, combined with the additional bolts, I don't see this flexing too much. I believe the weak point will be the 4 standard mounting points.

[CaptCobrajet]

Solid roller=T&D paired shaft system.  It costs $600 to drill a block that does not have lifter oiling.........much less than the repairs and headaches of trying conventionally mounted failures.  Before T&D, we ran every kind of set-up......created our own.....ran stuff other racers built...that was a Dove "super heavy duty" in the pic above, BTW.   There have been all kinds of band-aid attempts.  Some worked better than others, but when Torres came along with the head bolt mounted subplate, the FE was cured.  Their single shaft version, and several others, are reliable at 550 open pressure, but that is about the end.  Past that, it is a matter of when.....not if.........they will break a shaft.

Nothing at all wrong with bushings, especially for endurance or street use..........less to fail.  Needle bearings rule in very high lift, and /or drag race use.  The needle bearings will bleed MUCH more oil than a bushing, so adjust accordingly..........

[turbohunter]

Their single shaft version, and several others, are reliable at 550 open pressure, but that is about the end.  Past that, it is a matter of when.....not if.........they will break a shaft.

Acknowledge that for normal shafts. Do you think with these 3/4 solid shafts it would be different?

[fekbmax]

So have any of you guys actually ever seen a set of the dove super heavy duty ? Jim told me about 6 months ago that there are some sets out there and some of "there guys" run them on roundy round dirt , he also said they are made to order and take about 3 months. Now I think he has alot of knowledge and is over all a great guy and back in the 80's - 90's Dove did alot of good things to keep the FE alive but truth be told as alot of us know with Dove 3 month's turns to years in a hurry. I'm for sure not faulting Jim or Dove, I know they have had issue's with casting, molds, and forms and such for ever. From my understanding from the last time I spoke with him, he no longer is the owner of Dove manufacturing ?? When I ask about some stuff Dove had listed on eBay he kept saying that wasn't him and it was stuff the "owners son" had taken from the shop and listed. Was confusing to me and odd to be told to call him for any orders and not purchase the stuff from eBay. Something about it being old display stuff (I'm talking all the rocker arm stuff that was there not long ago but no longer).  Wondering if he sold his name or maybe the majority share of Dove manufacturing ??
Anyway I'll hush, I'm rambling, doubt there's much attention.
Basic question though is above,  anyone ever actually seen a set of these ?

[Barry_R]

The "new" rocker setup will be better on a street deal because all the rockers and shafts are coupled together with a bar and a solid shaft - should reduce the tendency for squirm and flex.  Solid shaft is a good idea.  I tend to agree with the comments about the factory fastener deal being a limit on system strength.  I had the "pleasure" of having a pair of rocker systems pull from the heads and punch through the valve covers on the dyno.  Four 3/8 fasteners simply ain't enough - the T&D race deal for the win.

Bushings are perfectly fine.  Might be better.  Seems to be a coming trend for roller lifters and work rather well for piston pins.  Remember that roller rockers do not "use" the entire needle bearing diameter.  Only a few needles are really carrying the load, they have point contact, and the roll action or sweep is under 90 degrees.

Jim has been working through some significant health issues these past many months.  No idea at all what the eventual fate of his company will be, his brother and a long time friend/employee have been trying to keep things moving to an extent.  Dove rarely seems to get the credit he deserves for keeping the FE alive though the 80s and 90s. 

When Jim would show up at Engine Masters some folks would comment about things that did not matter - like cosmetics.  But the Dove entry was the only one where he MADE the heads, the block, the intake, the rockers, the valve covers and more himself.  Nobody else can say that.

[plovett]

Speaking of Dove.....I feel like the Dove end stands that bolt to the special head bolts, almost always get overlooked.  It is an intermediate step between the factory setup and the race T&D setup.  6 bolts per side.  And you can use it with bushed rockers. 

JMO,

paulie

[fekbmax]

I totally agree, guys have been using that setup with good results for years. I have a set new of those end stands in the box, 2 brand new H/D shafts, PoP center stands, its a Hodge podge of different brands. All I need is a set of rockers to make a complete spare set. All else aside, who gets the nod..  Dove ? PoP ? HS ?  How about the TnD street rockers ? Can the be bought separate or do they use a different dia shaft ?