Plus and minuses bushed rockers vs needle bearing.

[CaptCobrajet]

The Dove end supports are a step in the right direction.  They are only 5/16 bolts, but still the right direction.  I have often considered using a bottom plate, like the HS pictured, and a countersunk 7/16 under the shaft for mounting.  Also thought of larger shafts like that, with a .125 through hole for oil.  Lots of ways to approach it.  The main problem is the 3/8 bolts....and only four, are not enough for serious roller cam  spring loads.  The T&D has eight 7/16 holding the stand.  I have had a total of two Dove super HD units....both somewhat mangled and stuffed in a box here someplace.

The single shaft T&D is not compatible with stock-size stuff.  The Dove end support will only engage an extra length Dove shaft.  He should not have put two sets of oil holes in those otherwise OK shafts. 

I like the single shaft T&D for high lift flat tappet or hydraulic rollers.  I lean more toward a bushed non adjustable with heavy shafts, studs, and end supports for streetable hydraulic rollers.  That works very well up to 400-425 open, with no bearings, no adjusters, and no roller tip to fail.  Good for 2-300 more rpm than aftermarket stuff that has more inertia weight.

[Tommy-T]

I tend to agree with Paulie. I ran the Dove end stands when I had a Hi Riser in my Mustang. Plenty stout for flat tappets and street rollers.

Just wanted to touch on what Blair said above about the 4 fasteners  being good to 550. That's a lot. It's plenty for any solid roller that I'd personally run on the street. My only solid roller experience is with the old 308R Comp. At .670 260@.050 it's not small...but not big either. I tickled the 10's with a car that had a 3000 stall converter and 4.11's. Never turned more than 65000 rpm. My point is that you can run pretty hard with the stock mounting stuff. I've had really good luck with the Dove, Harland Sharp, and POP rockers. They're all good.

My advise for anybody running a solid roller on the street. It's the springs going away that'll tear your motor up. Once things start fly'n 'round uncontrolled...rocker arms, pushrods, lifters, and other things I forgot to mention get broken and bent. Been there, ain't go'n back. For me it's replace the springs as normal winter maintenance every year, and lifters every third year...even if they roll nice 'n smooth.

For you race guys, forget anything I've mentioned. I'm nowhere near your territory. 

[jayb]

For what it's worth, I ran 240 on the seat and 620 over the nose on my 2005 Drag Week motor.  I modified the Edelbrock heads to remove the heli-coils for the rocker shaft bolts, and drilled and tapped for E-Z Loks with a 5/8" outside diameter, and the 3/8-16 ID.  Ran an Erson rocker setup.  Later, I put those heads and rocker setup on my 492" dyno mule and ran all my intake tests on that engine with that setup.  I'm pretty convinced that the larger diameter of the E-Z Loks allowed the heads to hold up to those spring pressures.

[plovett]

I'm only running 405 lbs open pressure on my Harland Sharp/Dove Stand combo.   I don't know what it's limits are in terms of spring pressure.  I was thinking about using this setup on my next engine with solid roller cam, and maybe with better/bigger fasteners.  I still might try that. 

paulie

[Barry_R]

I ran stuff similar to what Jay described for quite a while.  After getting more aggressive on cam and spring I pulled the original helicoils out, and ended up using large threaded inserts - they were made from some kind of big threaded rod like you see used in a vise, drilled and tapped to 3/8ths.  We also went to having a pair of 1/8" dowels in each stand to keep them straight and locked into position on the head.

Worked OK but once I went to the T&D stuff on a BT head the improvement was profound - more effective lift with the same cam due to a reduction in flex and squirm.  And nothing ever broke again - ever.

[jayb]

No doubt that the T&D race stuff is the best out there...

[Posi67]

Just for some reference but my 427 with Dove heads and Erson rockers have 680 lb springs and I've never broke one or pulled a heli-coil out. The 428 I'm currently using also has Dove heads, slightly bigger springs and Dove HD rockers and stands. That engine has been run hard for years before I got it and never an issue. Time serts would certainly make me feel better but the Dove HD setup is pretty stout. No bushings or bearing on the rockers.

The Erson stands are weak and I see signs of fretting under the studs so obviously they are being stressed and I may be on borrowed time with them. Their rockers have bearings and I like them but you end up with smaller diameter shafts to accommodate the bearing.  As mentioned T&D are the ticket for serious race engines but on a street build I don't think there's any difference between the bushed, non bushed or bearing rockers as long as you avoid some of that cheap but shiny offshore stuff out there now.  JMO

[cammerfe]

In regard to rockers and bearings or bushings or what have you, let me stress something that Barry alluded to above.

In a discussion on the subject with Jim Dove, he pointed to the fact that wrist pins run in pistons with nothing added in the way of bushings or bearings. If it works for pistons there's no reason that anything more is necessary on a suitably-designed rocker.

In addition, when I went to Ohio to pick up the stuff for the engine I was doing, all that was necessary in order to get the HD rocker set-up was for Jim to holler across the hall from his office for the girl who was in charge of that department and tell her to assemble what we'd just discussed. I went over there and watched her grab the proper parts from the waiting bins.

KS

[turbohunter]

In regard to rockers and bearings or bushings or what have you, let me stress something that Barry alluded to above.

In a discussion on the subject with Jim Dove, he pointed to the fact that wrist pins run in pistons with nothing added in the way of bushings or bearings. If it works for pistons there's no reason that anything more is necessary on a suitably-designed rocker.

KS

Picked up on that. Thank you guys.
Seems that for us budget conscious guys you don't lose anything with bushings (or not) and you eliminate one more point of possible failure.

Think I'm gonna snag one of these "new" HS deals, mock it up and see what's up with it. I prolly won't have to big a cam in my motor and will try to only spin it to 6500.
I think I'll get another base plate and give it to my nephew at SCE and let him fool with it to maybe pick up head holes (like Dove).
I realize I could just buy a TD set up and be done with it but what fun would that be. Also realize it's all been done before and you gurus are over it. But I'm just getting back into it after raising a family and divorces and I'm having a blast.
I'll be sure to post progress.

[Cyclone03]

Berry mentioned pining the stands above. I've wondered if  hollow dowels ,like the heads use, with the head and stand counter bored would stabilize the stands. 

[TomP]

The needle bearings on stock diameter shafts make the rockers weaker, they'll break between the pushrod and shaft. They bleed a lot of oil and if you try restricting the oil you will melt the end pushrod cups off.

One idea I had for my High Riser but haven't done was to make "bottleneck" studs 1/2" diameter where they go into the head necking down to 3/8" to fit through the shaft. The stands would need to be drilled out and obviously the heads too.  The heads could always be fixed to resell by using thread inserts.