Author Topic: rotor phasing video  (Read 10887 times)

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rcodecj

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rotor phasing video
« on: February 19, 2012, 02:17:10 PM »
My Ford distributor seems to have the rotor out of phase. I checked it with the engine at 18 degrees, with cap off and the rotor is too far counter clockwise.
I then cut a distributor cap hole on #1 and took a video. It shows the same thing. The camera is at an angle so it makes it look better than it is, but you can see it. Lousy video I know, I was running the timing light and camera at the same time and I'm not that coordinated.

Any way to fix it? All I can think of is moving the rotor or dist cap, rotor not going to happen, dist cap snaps on, not really possible.
It runs fine but it is not lined up that's for sure. Check out the new intake studs while you're at it.  ;D


VIDEO:


« Last Edit: February 19, 2012, 06:53:10 PM by rcodecj »

machoneman

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Re: rotor phasing video
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2012, 02:59:28 PM »
MSD has a pretty good tech link:

http://www.msdignition.com/uploadedFiles/MSDIgnitioncom/Support/frm28392_tech_bulletin_rotor_phasing.pdf

http://www.dragstuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4679

Yes, even with a snap-on cap, it is possible if its not too far off w/o necessarily buying the MSD cap and adjustable rotor. First though, did you replace the ditzy gear at any time? Phasing the gear to the rotor does have some impact. Yes, this seems counter-intuitive (just drop it in and re-wire the F.O.) but guess what? I've seen it enough times with vacuum advance ditzys. 
« Last Edit: February 19, 2012, 05:24:17 PM by machoneman »
Bob Maag

rcodecj

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« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2012, 05:18:53 PM »
I found another way to move the rotor phase. I shortened the vacuum advance arm by drilling a 2nd hole on the inside of the original. Using that hole moves the Pertronics sensor clockwise. That of course changed my timing so I reset it to 18 initial, full advance is around 36 degrees. I don't use vacuum advance so it is of no concern to me that if I did the vacuum advance would move the rotor phase also. I just wanted the rotor to not have to jump so far to get to the cap terminal. I looked at the reluctor wheel to see if there was some way to re-orient it but I decided that would be too tough to change for me.

Now the spark is near center, but somewhat ccw. If I wanted to have vacuum advance I would have to not move the vacuum advance arm as much, try to get it on the edge of counter clockwise  and then hope it ended up on the other edge when vacuum advance was applied. In my opinion most vacuum advance modules add too much advance and the adjuster screw does not change the amount of advance much, only changes how much vacuum it takes to start moving. If I could find a vacuum advance module that added less advance I could always try that.

I believe the moving plate in the distributor that the Pertronics mounts to is not oriented correctly, causing the rotor phase problem I had.
I am not recommending to anyone to do what I did as most use vacuum advance, but I think it would be a good idea to check at least.
I am going to check my MSD distributor as soon as I get another cap, as it is a ready to run vacuum advance unit.

machoneman

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Re: rotor phasing video
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2012, 05:27:41 PM »
Yes, a ditzy with a vacuum advance plate is often the culprit. Many have lost the OEM installed rubber/viton bumper on the lever arm pin (they disintegrate with age) that limits total advance (this is a bigger deal on GM ditzys) and hence rotor-to-cap lug phasing can get way out of kilter. 
Bob Maag

FirstEliminator

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Re: rotor phasing video
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2012, 07:55:35 PM »
   I just went through a bunch of distributor tuning myself. One thing I did not check was the rotor phasing. However, I do use the vacuum advance which will move the phasing around a bit.

    The VCF408 (Advance Auto's #) vacuum advance can be adjusted down to zero. I currently have mine set at about 8 degrees. I have used this same can in the Duraspark distributor, but the arm has to be bent to fit.

  About that viton sleeve on the mechanical advance stop post. A missing sleeve caused me greif years ago. The symptom came through as a sputter at the rpm where the mechanical just start to touch the post. Over about a 200 rpm span the mechanical would bounce off the post unill there was enough centrifugal force to keep the plate pegged against the post. The timing was jumping up and down about 20 degrees. I thnk that's all of what was available in the range slot.

    To fix, I used some heat shrink tubing on the post. To narrow up a wide range, just do more layers of heat shrink.

    A few weeks ago I was fooling around with the heat shrink tubing on the stop post and couldn't get the range where I wanted it. So I came up with a better idea. Being I only use the light spring for the advance and bend the post for the heavy spring to where it won't make contact, I decided to modify the heavy spring to act as the mechanical limit and not worry about the stop post. What I used was a link of that small chain used to hang a flourecent lamps. I was originally thinking of a piece of bailing wire, but you'd have to twist it in a knot for it to hold. The lamp chain wire diameter was a little smaller than a cheap wire coat hanger and was right for the task. So, I took one link and put it through the spring then bent the ends over to limit any stretch of the spring. I suppose there is just enough stretch in the hook areas of the spring to cushion any bouncing of the mechanical as it reaches the limit.

    I knew I was going to post this online at some point. I should have gone home to get the camera.

    Another benefit of using the restricted spring is that you can simply bend the spring post through the little square hole in the breaker plate to adjust the timing range. When working with the original stop post I would have to remove the breaker plate everytime.

     I will modify another distributor this week and take a picture of the spring that I put the chain link on.

Yes, please post your pictures, I would like to see them. Sounds like an interesting idea.








   
« Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 03:05:05 AM by FirstEliminator »
Mark
Berkshire Transmissions
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69 Cougar SS 351w AOD
69 Cougar Sunroof Eliminator 351w FMX
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68 Monterey 390 C-6
68 Monterey conv 390 C-6
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rcodecj

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Re: rotor phasing video
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2012, 06:51:33 PM »
Yes, please post your pictures, I would like to see them. Sounds like an interesting idea.

FirstEliminator

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Re: rotor phasing video
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2012, 11:02:56 PM »
  14 hour workday today. I will try to find time tomorrow.

   Mark
Mark
Berkshire Transmissions
North Adams, Massachusetts

70 Cougar XR-7 460 C-6
70 Cougar XR-7 conv 351c 4v FMX
69 Cougar SS 351w AOD
69 Cougar Sunroof Eliminator 351w FMX
69 Cougar XR-7 390 C-6
68 Monterey 390 C-6
68 Monterey conv 390 C-6
64 Montclair Marauder 390 Merc-O
58 Monterey 383 Merc-O
58 Parklane 430 MultiDrive
68 Colony Park 428 C-6
68 Colony Park 390 C-6
58 Parklane 430 MultiDrive
70 Cougar Eliminator 351c 4 speed
I don't feel like a hoarder.

rcodecj

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Re: rotor phasing video
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2012, 09:27:24 AM »
  14 hour workday today. I will try to find time tomorrow.

   Mark

no hurry, thanks

cammerfe

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Re: rotor phasing video
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2012, 03:59:52 PM »
Bubbler tube for an aquarium works well as a bumper. And if you don't use vac advance it's entirely possible to use a screw through a vertical hole, drilled and tapped, to make minor adjustments to phasing.

KS

FirstEliminator

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Re: rotor phasing video
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2012, 09:30:08 PM »
Tonight I had some time to put the chain link in another distributor. This is a Duraspark for an FE. You can see the posts where the spring attach to in tha square window. Pretty conveniant for making adjustment to the limit of range travel and tension on the operable spring.



   This is a rebuilt distributor I got about 14 years ago that was never installed and also never taken apart until tonight. Notice there is no viton cushion on the stop post.



    Here is the chain, a link I took off the chain and the spring.



    This is the best picture my camera could take of the link wrapped into the spring.



   Here is the distributor with the spring installed. Notice I put some heat shrink on the stop post. I also make sure the loops of the springs aren't too loose on their posts.      UPDATE on 10/23/2016-----because I re-read it and it makes no sense. I don't put heatshirnk on the stop post when I use the chain-link method of limiting advance travel. The stop post is left unused due to the link limiting the travel. Years ago, I did use heat shrink in layers to limit travel---more layers = less travel.  Notice the spring with the chain link fits it's posts loosely. That slop is what determines the range of advance. It can easily be adjusted through the square hole be bending the post. The active spring  (the one with NO chainlink) is what controls the curve of the advance. That post can also be accessed through the square hole to adjust tension.



   One more thing is I put some downward bend in the vacuum advance arm. This way I don't have to fuss with putting the tiny e-clip in place. I've been running without the e-clip on all my vehicles for many years and never had one pop off.

« Last Edit: October 23, 2016, 10:44:41 PM by FirstEliminator »
Mark
Berkshire Transmissions
North Adams, Massachusetts

70 Cougar XR-7 460 C-6
70 Cougar XR-7 conv 351c 4v FMX
69 Cougar SS 351w AOD
69 Cougar Sunroof Eliminator 351w FMX
69 Cougar XR-7 390 C-6
68 Monterey 390 C-6
68 Monterey conv 390 C-6
64 Montclair Marauder 390 Merc-O
58 Monterey 383 Merc-O
58 Parklane 430 MultiDrive
68 Colony Park 428 C-6
68 Colony Park 390 C-6
58 Parklane 430 MultiDrive
70 Cougar Eliminator 351c 4 speed
I don't feel like a hoarder.

rcodecj

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Re: rotor phasing video
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2012, 11:53:03 AM »
Thanks and I agree with the e-clip thing you said. I do have one on now, but I've ran them also for years on distributors without them.
I have never bent the arm because mine sat tight on the stud and once the two outside screw are in, if it sits down tight, it won't come off.
One thing I'm going to do since I don't use the vacuum advance is to tighten up the vacuum advance adjustment to make it stiffer.
It probably won't make much difference but it might as well be more solid as long as I'm not using it anyway.

Faron

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Re: rotor phasing video
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2012, 04:38:12 PM »
After Recurving hundreds Of Ford Distributors I have yet to have a FACTORY problem with phasing , BUT if you are using an aftermarket Box/module and you happen to reverse the leads on the pickup ( on an MSD Purple does NOT go to Purple ) it Will throw it out! , the only other instance was trying to put a points Vac adv on a duraspark or vice versa .

machoneman

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Re: rotor phasing video
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2012, 04:42:38 PM »
Hey Faron, good to see you over here! I'm sure you can help many posters in the future, especially on any ditzy/ignition stuff.
Bob Maag

FirstEliminator

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Re: rotor phasing video
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2017, 07:43:46 PM »
Faron,
   The V-309 is the vacuum advance I like to use with the points distributor as it is adjustable down to zero advance. Do you know if they make a vacuum advance with that adjustability to fit the Duraspark? I've been straitening the arm of the points vacuum advance to work on the Duraspark. But, why do that if I can order one that fits?

   thanks,
     Mark
Mark
Berkshire Transmissions
North Adams, Massachusetts

70 Cougar XR-7 460 C-6
70 Cougar XR-7 conv 351c 4v FMX
69 Cougar SS 351w AOD
69 Cougar Sunroof Eliminator 351w FMX
69 Cougar XR-7 390 C-6
68 Monterey 390 C-6
68 Monterey conv 390 C-6
64 Montclair Marauder 390 Merc-O
58 Monterey 383 Merc-O
58 Parklane 430 MultiDrive
68 Colony Park 428 C-6
68 Colony Park 390 C-6
58 Parklane 430 MultiDrive
70 Cougar Eliminator 351c 4 speed
I don't feel like a hoarder.

chris401

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Re: rotor phasing video
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2017, 09:24:03 AM »
My Ford distributor seems to have the rotor out of phase. I checked it with the engine at 18 degrees, with cap off and the rotor is too far counter clockwise.
I then cut a distributor cap hole on #1 and took a video. It shows the same thing. The camera is at an angle so it makes it look better than it is, but you can see it. Lousy video I know, I was running the timing light and camera at the same time and I'm not that coordinated.

Any way to fix it? All I can think of is moving the rotor or dist cap, rotor not going to happen, dist cap snaps on, not really possible.
It runs fine but it is not lined up that's for sure. Check out the new intake studs while you're at it.  ;D


VIDEO:

I had small cap burn on the other site. A couple pointed out rotor phase and they were right. The vacuum advance pin location on the arm was .120" shorter than the blown OEM I pulled off. I will update that post in a couple more thousand miles.