lost oil pressure due to filter change?

[Landlubberatsea]

Hi all, Jan from Solvesborg, Sweden here.
First of all, thanks to all of you sharing your thoughts and wisdoms on this forum. I have been reading it for the last two years and It's been very educational for a garage amateur like me!

I have a 68 Torino GT with a 390 which I imported to Sweden from the States two years ago. Last year was my first cruising season and I noticed that the oil pressure was a bit low especially on idle, around 10 psi, but as I understood it from reading on various forums this was not so unusual on the FE engines and as long as the pressure increased when stepping on it I shouldn't have to be too worried about it.
This year when it was time to bring her out from winter rest I treated her to a oil and filter change. I filled 6 qts of Kendall GT 20-50 (thought the extra qt would help the pressure a bit) and put on a Fram shortie filter. Afterwards, when I had been driving a while and the engine was nice and warm, I noticed while rolling around a corner at idle that the pressure was down to 0! I pulled over afraid that I had done a poor job tightening the plug or filter. Checked that all looked ok underneath and started again, pressure was still poor but at least not zero and it increased when pumping the gas so I thought it was the same situation as last year and since driving season is short over here I kind of shut my eyes for the problem and thought that I could address the issue in the autumn.
This was as you probably understand a stupid decision. The problem became worse and when I took off the pan to check pump and pickup I noticed that I had now ended up with worn down bearings and crank.
My question now is if the filter could have anything to do with loosing that last bit of pressure?, because I read on another forum about this happening to another guy changing to a Fram shortie filter. If so, are there other filters as well out there which you should avoid?

The good news with all this is that I will finally get my thumbs out and realise my 445 dreams  / Jan

[Nightmist66]

First off, welcome aboard! Sounds like a cool car. Sounds strange that oil pressure dropped after adding 20W50. If clearances were "normal", there should be no problem w/ 10W30. I understand you're wanting to run the thicker oil to check on the oil pressure situation. Adding an additional quart of oil will not help with oil pressure, unless it is so low that it is sucking air. With 5 quarts, that should not have been an issue. Anyway, do you know what kind of oil was used before and which filter you removed? Was the oil sparkly/metallic in any way when you drained the old oil? As far as the list of oil filters I would avoid, Fram is at the top of the list. Is there clearance problems that you need to run a shorter filter? If not, the Motorcraft FL1-A is a great filter. Purolator, Royal Purple, and Wix are also good filters. If you need the extra clearance, the Motorcraft FL-300 or equivalent will work for a shorter filter. The Motorcraft FL-400S or equivalent will work for a little shorter and narrower filter from the FL-1A. We have used the Motorcraft FL-400S and I currently have the Purolator PSL 20195 on mine for the header clearance. The short filter alone should not have been a problem, obviously quality. Again, I point my finger towards the Fram. JMO. Glad to hear about that 445 though

[Landlubberatsea]

Hi Jared, thanks for the reply.

Yes, I used the thicker oil to help with the pressure. Do not know what kind of oil there was before and I think it was a motorcraft filter but I'm not 100% sure.
Oil looked ok when I changed it, black of course but no metal that I could see. When I pulled the pan later there was a couple of small flakes in the oil but the oil wasn't sparkling. There was a bit of grey sludge in the bottom though. Filter is probably not the rootcause (main bearing clearance, worn down cam lobe sludging up the pump?) just thought if any of you had experienced any significant drop in pressure with certain filters.
Thanks for recommendations on filters, think I will go back to motorcraft. Just wasn't sure when ordering over internet how long the filters were so I took the one described as shorter to be on the safe side with ground and headers clearance.
Thanks again for helping me/Jan

[ScotiaFE]

Welcome Jan.
With a stock FE type oil pan you want 6 quarts in the pan and a full size oil filter with one quart in the filter,
and fill the filter before you install it.
This will give you a total of about 7 quarts in a stock system.
 

[Landlubberatsea]

Thanks Scotia, yes that's what I did. First I filled the filter, the shortie came in a bit short of a full quart, and then six quart in the tank. I actually did this twice because after emptying out the old oil I filled up with some cheaper 20w50 without the zinc additive and then I ran the engine hot before emptying again and changed filter and filled the zddp(?) oil. Well all that fuzz didn't give me much in return

[Autoholic]

I would highly recommend you do some reading and research oil in general. I don't think 20W50 would be a good choice. That is a very thick oil, which means you'll have to let the engine warm up for a really long time before that oil is viscous enough. That is your real concern, viscosity. What good is oil pressure if your temps are too low? You won't be getting oil where it needs to go. The first number is the more important number, as it relates to the cold viscosity and 80-90% of your engine wear happens when the oil is cold and not flowing well. I'm away from my computer but when I get home I'd be happy to share some resources. Your problems could be due to running an improper oil weight. As always, I could be wrong but I try to help when I can. Cheers.

[Landlubberatsea]

Hi Joe, thanks for replying.
Have I understood it right if I say like this; Yes I get the pressure up but since the viscosity is so high when cold it won't reach all the places it should and therefore I'm wearing down the engine during cold starts? A kind of false safety.
Well, if that's so then I will have to rethink a little. When I were to buy oil I asked my buddies with more experience of old v8's and they all recommended to use 20W 50 in old cars. Must say though that what you are saying do make sense in my ears. Especially since my engine was rebuild a couple of years ago (before I bought it though so I do not know much about it) and not driven much since. My friends recommendations are probably based on experience from old worn cars with greater play in bearings etc. where a 20w50 might be better (correct?).
Any thoughts on the drop in pressure with certain filters?

I attach a couple of pictures on the no 4 mains and bearing as well.

Don't recall it being fun to be in school on saturdays but it's actually quite ok when it's FE's your learning about All please continue to throw your wisdom at me 

[RJP]

As said above  Fram filters are junk and they would be the 1st place I'd look for low oil pressure. I've had 2 Fram oil filters fail and both with the same results, low oil pressure. I now run Wix or Baldwin. Other Fram filters seem to be ok, like the fuel and air filters.  It is very possible that the Fram filter did not go into bypass as it should when cold and that could have been the cause of the wiped out bearings. 20-50 oil would have only made it worse.

[Joe-JDC]

Are those pictures of your #4 main bearings?  If so, then you have another problem besides low oil pressure.  Those bearings are worn out, and might even be the wrong size for the crankshaft.  More information??   Joe-JDC

[RJP]

One other thing that jumps out at me is the lower bearing...It has no oil groove. I haven't seen those in years and mostly in FT truck engines.  When did you say the engine was rebuilt?

[Autoholic]

I will second the opinion on FRAM. They are garbage. I would look at the filters that companies like Royal Purple and AMSOIL sell, filters like EA and WIX. I would also look at Royal Purple, Mobile 1 and AMSOIL for the oil you want to run in a classic engine. AMSOIL sells two oils meant for older cars, like yours. The oil is called Z-Rod, having high levels of ZDDP which is needed in engines that sit a lot. High zinc levels in your oil will prevent corrosion when you leave your car sit, like winter storage for example. The two choices for Z-Rod are 10W30 and 20W50, if I remember correctly.

Below is a really good source to help you understand oil grades and what might work best for you...

http://www.positivespin.us/MotorOil.htm

And here is another resource if you want to really dive into the topic...

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-101/


20W50 is probably used in old engines for the following reason: ring seal. Old, worn out engines tend to have worn out piston rings, requiring a thicker viscosity oil to seal properly. As you will learn in the first link, the second number doesn't have as huge of an impact on how the oil flows once it is warmed up. The first number though dictates how well the oil flows when cold and this is your real concern. Oil pressure gets the oil where it needs to go, the oil viscosity and temperature is what enables the oil to lubricate everything. Thick of katchup and honey, which one will flow quicker to cover your gears? Both could be pumped at the exact same pressure, because the pressure is what is moving it forwards.

[Nightmist66]

I have heard that some Fram had the bypass valve come loose and block the hole, leading to severe engine damage. As stated the 20W50 is too thick for what that engine "should" need. However you should not necessarily "starve" for oil on a cold start with 20W50, because the oil should at least have some kind of oil film left between the clearances after shut down. It will take a little longer for the 20W50 to reach bearings, etc., but it still shouldn't starve. One thing, when you had or may still have the pan off is see if the oil pump shaft is broken. Possibly leaking/sucking air around pickup, or worn pump? If the pickup was sucking air before the pump that may also explain why the 20W50 dropped down to no oil pressure(harder to pick up) Take a close look at the pickup/bolts and tube, the pump driveshaft, and see if you can find anything wrong with the oil filter. The 20W50 should really only be needed if bearing clearances permit. I don't think it is as much for ring seal as it was an older practice to run larger clearances and thicker viscosity oils.  Anymore the way to go is tighter clearances and thinner oil. On a stock rebuild or mild to moderate street/strip, the 10W30 or maybe even 10W40 should be more than sufficient. Good luck.

[Autoholic]

"I don't think is is as much for ring seal as it was an older practice to run larger clearances and thicker viscosity oils."

Which is ring seal, but we're beating a dead horse now with semantics. You are correct however in pointing out the larger tolerances used back then.

Having looked at those pictures, I would say it might be in your best interest to tear down and rebuild the engine. Know everything about the engine and replace parts as needed. I'm not a pro and MOST of these guys have loads of experience that far outweighs whatever I know. All I can suggest is what I would do if I was in your shoes, dealing with that engine. You've got some serious wear on that main bearing and that would be a red flag in my book.

Good luck

[Nightmist66]

"I don't think is is as much for ring seal as it was an older practice to run larger clearances and thicker viscosity oils."

Which is ring seal, but we're beating a dead horse now with semantics. You are correct however in pointing out the larger tolerances used back then.

Having looked at those pictures, I would say it might be in your best interest to tear down and rebuild the engine. Know everything about the engine and replace parts as needed. I'm not a pro and MOST of these guys have loads of experience that far outweighs whatever I know. All I can suggest is what I would do if I was in your shoes, dealing with that engine. You've got some serious wear on that main bearing and that would be a red flag in my book.

Good luck

Joe, I meant to say larger bearing clearances, but yes, pistons and rings as well. You understood what I meant. Also, as far as us recommending things, it's always easier for us to spend someone elses money, lol. Although we will try to point down the path of most importance and what is absolutely necessary.

[Landlubberatsea]

The replies keep coming in and I'm freaking loving it, thanks for spending some of your weekend time on my problems. This is why I have spent two years here as guest, you are awesome (was that to much?)

Hi Joe-JDC, yes thats the no 4 and as you pointed out the bearings are now junk.
Is it the radius wear that tells you that they might be the wrong size? Is there any way to tell if they are worn down due to the oil pressure or if they are worn down and causing the low oil pressure?
As I said last year (first year for me with the car) it was around 10 psi at idle (hot) and 20-30 psi when doing 40-60 mph. As I recall it, it became worse over time. This year after oil and filter change I was down to 0 at hot idle and 15-20 when cruising. It has always responded though when I have revved it (oil pressure vise that is). Eventually it started to knock on idle and then I had to bite the bullit and stop driving it. When I pulled the pan I couldn't see too much sparkling metal in the oil but there was quite a bit of grey smooth sludge in the bottom (material grinded of the cam or crank?) The pump, Melling M57, looked ok and sat tight and so did pick up and gaskets in between. Driveshaft was also ok as well as clearance to pan bottom.

RJP - thanks for joining, I believe the engine was rebuilt in this decade, maybe around 2012 or so.

Autoholic/Joe- Thanks for the info I will read the links you posted and look up if I can get the Z-rod in Sweden.
 
I have more pictures of the engine and oil but they are at home and right now I am of at work on the North Sea so I cannot get hold of it (can post some later in my members projects thread though)

Not so good that all this happened in the middle of the short driving season but hooray I get to build a 445 and since the engine isn't in running condition even my girlfriend supports spending big money on the engine since she wants to drive it too and recognizes that the car without engine is not worth much 

For info, I will start a new thread under members projects. Would be really thankful if the forum members took their time (as if I could ask for more of that ) and maybe came with some answers to a few questions I have in conjunction with the engine build. Thanks/Jan   Ps do not worry about spending my money, you will never be as good at it as I am my self  Ds.