TFS EFI Manifolds for the intake adapter

[jayb]

I think it's awesome and in the right application would be jaw dropping cool, but what application would want so long of a runner and so much volume?

Ross, the extra long runners would tune the induction system for the lower RPM ranges, for a given harmonic.  You've got Pipemax, right?  You can see this by putting your peak HP RPM in the inputs at different values, and look at the differences in intake runner length calculated by the program.  Also, I'd bet that the long runner Trick Flow top is designed to take advantage of the second harmonic, kind of like the old Chrysler crossrams from the early '60s, rather than the more commonly used 3rd harmonic.

[Dumpling]

They're designed for 351 cubic inch engines, maybe low 400 cubic inch with boring/stroking; so I'm not sure you could infer that there is too much volume in the plenum when contemplating usage on a mid-400++ cubic inch engine.

[fe66comet]

The ports can be taken out to a full 4V port, the Box R top has huge port openings @ 2.380/ 1.380. With 330 squared I think the potential is there for some good HP.

[My427stang]

I think it's awesome and in the right application would be jaw dropping cool, but what application would want so long of a runner and so much volume?

Ross, the extra long runners would tune the induction system for the lower RPM ranges, for a given harmonic.  You've got Pipemax, right?  You can see this by putting your peak HP RPM in the inputs at different values, and look at the differences in intake runner length calculated by the program.  Also, I'd bet that the long runner Trick Flow top is designed to take advantage of the second harmonic, kind of like the old Chrysler crossrams from the early '60s, rather than the more commonly used 3rd harmonic.

Gotcha Jay, I have Pipemax and I also keep Excel spreadsheets with all the old Ramchargers formulas, it just seems like they are extremely long runners, especially when combined with the more conventional upper manifold in the pics above.  It could just be the pictures too. 

Joe, can you measure the runner length with both setups, either every runner or just give me a good estimate for discussion? I can plug it into the spreadsheet and see what RPM the runner length is theoretically tuned to.

Dumpling, I wouldn't infer anything, I am a measuring and calculating fool   but likely you are right, the plenum itself is only the top, so most of the volume seems to be in the runners.  The inside of most EFI manifolds use this plenum design with runner extensions, Ford and Mopar especially, combined with port injection and the long runners, it is likely that it would be very nice for a flat torque curve, although I doubt it's really a low rpm manifold on a 400 inch Cleveland

I wish it would fit under the hook of my Mustang, but it seems like it's too tall.  When I get back to Omaha I will measure how much room I have under my B9 scoop.  It could be a nice addition when I go with the supercharged motor

[fe66comet]

As soon as I heard about the adapter I was planning on the TF manifold. I did a lot of research on actual testing on the Box R intake, it seems easily capapable of 700 HP under the right Windsor engine. CFM wise my plan includes a 1150 CFM 90mm Wilson throttle body. Once all together I will further tune runner length with plenum spacers.

[philminotti]

When I got my adapter, I was thinking along these lines as well, but in my cobra, it'd just be way too tall.  Hopefully I can come up with a low profile adapter/intake combo, as I really like my adapter.  That Borla cross ram is pretty sweet....

[Dumpling]

Gotcha Jay, I have Pipemax and I also keep Excel spreadsheets with all the old Ramchargers formulas, it just seems like they are extremely long runners, especially when combined with the more conventional upper manifold in the pics above.  It could just be the pictures too. 

Joe, can you measure the runner length with both setups, either every runner or just give me a good estimate for discussion? I can plug it into the spreadsheet and see what RPM the runner length is theoretically tuned to.

Dumpling, I wouldn't infer anything, I am a measuring and calculating fool   but likely you are right, the plenum itself is only the top, so most of the volume seems to be in the runners.  The inside of most EFI manifolds use this plenum design with runner extensions, Ford and Mopar especially, combined with port injection and the long runners, it is likely that it would be very nice for a flat torque curve, although I doubt it's really a low rpm manifold on a 400 inch Cleveland

I wish it would fit under the hook of my Mustang, but it seems like it's too tall.  When I get back to Omaha I will measure how much room I have under my B9 scoop.  It could be a nice addition when I go with the supercharged motor

I have an injected MT crossram that fits under a stock hood with room to spare.  But it's a more laid down design than this TFS.  According to the TFS site, runner length with the box top is 11", 13.3" with the 'street' version.  I ran a tape down the MT's runners and came up with a little over 11".

Crossrams work great, and there is definitely a hit mid-range.

I have a BXR efi intake that I've been messing with, though the MT performs so well that the incentive is lacking to bolt it on.  It has a lower installed height than the TFS, again due to the more laid down design of a crossram.

http://www.clubcobra.com/photopost/data/500/bxr_for_fe_s.jpg

[My427stang]

Cool, I have run Edelbrock cross rams and they do fine, but they aren't a real deep breather.  Little different story than the M/T

So the runners, with a 3.25 inch estimate to the head and 1 inch for the adapter added (which is probably conservative for both) using a quick L= ( 72 x C )/N { + / - 3 inches } for wave tuning, solved for RPM.

L = duct length (inches) from Plenum ( the first reflection point) to the back of the intake valve.               
72 = constant ( probably derived from valve timing )               
C = velocity of sound in air ( this is usually assumed to be about 1100 ft/sec)               
N = Engine RPM for maximum tuning effect   

11 inch runner, plus 4.25 = 5193 rpm tuned length
13.3 inch runner, plus 4.25 = 4513 rpm tuned length

For giggles
Your 11 inch runner, plus 3.25 (no adapter) = 5558 rpm tuned length

Keep in mind, with airflow, that doesn't mean it dies or falls off, you just lose the advantage of the water hammer effect of slamming a little extra charge into the cylinder.  If it flows enough, it'll just keep pulling, but maybe taper off in its rate of increase.  Matter of fact, maybe it carries the torque curve a little longer which could be a good thing too.

BTW, what hood does your M/T cross ram fit under and what do you run for TBs and air cleaners?  We had to put a Boss 9 scoop on a 67 Mustang, but when we did the Edelbrock cross with two Holleys fit, forgot about that.  However it was a bit air cleaner limited and it was only a 410 built to stock CJ specs, heads included, and headers, so not a big HP engine.
         

[Dumpling]

Pair of Kinsler TB's, short Stelling air cleaners, 68 Torino.  Seriously, lots of clearance...went with the Stellings because I was worried about clearance, needlessly it turned out.  Mid-range, wide band, torque, is a good thing.

[My427stang]

Sounds cool, I run a Victor intake on my EFI 489.  No shortage of torque, but also relatively small cam for a 489 too.  242/246 @ .050, .595 lift, although I do run it at half the lash Erson recommends so it's a little healthier.

Sounds like a awesome ride, any pics of the car or engine?

[Dumpling]

I've actually been consciously trying to keep pictures of that setup off of the web. Sorry.

[rockittsled]

I think it's awesome and in the right application would be jaw dropping cool, but what application would want so long of a runner and so much volume?

The long runners were what gave the 5.0 Mustang the torque to outrun the 5.7s in the Camaro (Z28 and IROCs both) and Vettes, while giving up almost 50 c.i, especially if you threw the Tony DeFeo tuneup at it.  My thoughts are that the manifold would work great in a truck/torque motor while using a lot of factory parts and computer to convert the FE to fuel injection with factory reliability

[My427stang]

I've actually been consciously trying to keep pictures of that setup off of the web. Sorry.

No worries, seen one manifold converted to injection you've seen them all

[jayb]

Cool, I have run Edelbrock cross rams and they do fine, but they aren't a real deep breather.  Little different story than the M/T

So the runners, with a 3.25 inch estimate to the head and 1 inch for the adapter added (which is probably conservative for both) using a quick L= ( 72 x C )/N { + / - 3 inches } for wave tuning, solved for RPM.

L = duct length (inches) from Plenum ( the first reflection point) to the back of the intake valve.               
72 = constant ( probably derived from valve timing )               
C = velocity of sound in air ( this is usually assumed to be about 1100 ft/sec)               
N = Engine RPM for maximum tuning effect   

11 inch runner, plus 4.25 = 5193 rpm tuned length
13.3 inch runner, plus 4.25 = 4513 rpm tuned length

For giggles
Your 11 inch runner, plus 3.25 (no adapter) = 5558 rpm tuned length

Ross, FYI the adapter is 2.5" in runner length if you include the gaskets on either side. 

[fe66comet]

With a 350 CFM head I came up with abut 675 HP between 3500-5500 RPM. At least that is my goal with what I am working with.