Author Topic: Is HP or RPM the greater limit to OEM part life  (Read 11817 times)

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BB-63

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Is HP or RPM the greater limit to OEM part life
« on: February 22, 2015, 07:19:57 PM »
Having read through Blair's "dueling 390's" posts, I'm intrigued by the high degree of OEM parts used for such stout builds.  I assume both of these engines would be very reliable street engines if kept below some threshold RPM.  That brings me to the subject question: given the relatively high horsepower of these builds using OEM block, crank, rods, and lifters, is it more the power or the RPM that limits the life of the OEM parts? 

The reason I ask is that I'm planning on supercharging a similar build (in parts only, not in skill!), not for racing but for purely street use in a '63 Galaxie with a C6 tranny and 3.00 gears.  Why go to the expense of supercharging without assembling a forged rotating assembly in a cross-bolted block of large displacement?  My answer is twofold: 1) cost, and 2) I'm not (yet) convinced it is necessary.  Regarding 1): adding a supercharger and heads is more cost effective for me (I work for Whipple Superchargers) than the cost of a new block alone.  Regarding 2): Whipple's bread and butter is supercharging bone stock modern muscle cars/trucks/SUV's (intercooled with ~8 psi boost for a 150% power increase), most of which do not have forged rotating assemblies, and we see nothing less than OEM reliability numbers.  I realize the FE is not a modern engine but I'll be going port injected and distributorless so I should be able to control AFR and timing to within safe limits.   

Using Blair's BBM-headed 390 build and Whipple's standard formula, I'd expect to see about 500 RWHP (my goal) at 4400 RPM.  That seems like a winner combo to me in terms of power and reliability for my street application.  Now all you folks with the real experience, please feel free to shred me to bits. - Garrett

Joe-JDC

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Re: Is HP or RPM the greater limit to OEM part life
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2015, 11:53:19 PM »
Since you work for Whipple, I am surprised at your claim of 150% increase in horsepower for 8 psi boost.  That is not possible, maybe 40-50% increase over stock, less power consumed to turn the supercharger.  Forces on the internal components are increased to the square as rpms increase, and most cast parts have a limited rpm before they start to stretch, or fracture from the stresses.  The camshaft, valve springs, balance of internal rotating assembly all determine where the engine will be limited in rpm.  There is not a simple answer to your questions, but most FE engines were designed to last the owners at least 100,000 miles according to early advertisements. 
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jayb

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Re: Is HP or RPM the greater limit to OEM part life
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2015, 12:11:14 AM »
I think he probably meant a 50% power increase, or 150% of the original power.  My guess is that RPM is definitely harder on the reciprocating assembly; 500 HP at 5000 RPM with a supercharger is easier on the parts than 500 HP at 7000 RPM.  I've got no data to back that up, though...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

WConley

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Re: Is HP or RPM the greater limit to OEM part life
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2015, 12:21:20 AM »
I'm with Jay.  RPM is the real killer.  Yes the inertia loads go up with the square of RPM, and in the bottom end typically will start to exceed combustion loads a little north of 5,000 rpm for engines like ours.

Big cubes with a supercharger will make plenty of reliable horsepower, especially at that 8 psi level you're referencing.  As you noted, spark and fuel are very important, but it sounds like you've got that covered.

- Bill
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

BB-63

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Re: Is HP or RPM the greater limit to OEM part life
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2015, 01:22:36 AM »
Pardon my mistake. I did, in fact mean 50% increase at 8 psi boost. Sorry for the confusion. - Garrett

Barry_R

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Re: Is HP or RPM the greater limit to OEM part life
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2015, 08:32:21 AM »
RPM is the primary killer.
But that noted, I would not want stock rods and especially a cast piston in that application.
Just not enough "headroom" in the design.
A classic risk versus reward decision.
its not "is is good enough"?
its "what happens if I get past the good enough" threshold?
Especially the pistons
In a 3.0 geared heavy car you'll have an excellent opportunity to get into detonation during gear changes and throttle crowd conditions.  Modern cars have a raft full of electronics and sensors to cover those transitional loads - you only have your ears and your right foot...

ScotiaFE

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Re: Is HP or RPM the greater limit to OEM part life
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2015, 08:45:31 AM »
And the 3.00 is a terrible gear at any level.
A 3.25 minimum, but a 3.50 is just a tad better with the auto.

BB-63

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Re: Is HP or RPM the greater limit to OEM part life
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2015, 09:16:14 AM »
Good point on headroom and the rear gear. That also brings to mind that modern cars have more transmission gears besides the electronics. 

BB-63

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Re: Is HP or RPM the greater limit to OEM part life
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2015, 01:04:24 PM »
Barry, do you think the OEM block and crank provide enough headroom in this application?  I understand your experience is that the OEM pistons and rods are not up to the task, i.e. you'd go with forged parts there.  I understand the piston problem with detonation.  Are the rods questionable due to the fatigue concern you wrote about in your book?  If so, I assume (perhaps wrongly) that is RPM related (more tensile rather than compressive)?  I really value this forum for the wealth of experience so please forgive me if I offend, that's not my intent.  I truly want to learn and you folks have been there.

Barry_R

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Re: Is HP or RPM the greater limit to OEM part life
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2015, 01:42:06 PM »
Block and crank are pretty durable parts from Ford.
Rods are just a fatigue/nervous type of thing - - I see soooo many broken blocks here...
Headroom is a good concept to keep in mind.
You can stand, dance, jump, and run right on the edge of a cliff - - but once you go over....

BB-63

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Re: Is HP or RPM the greater limit to OEM part life
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2015, 05:10:57 PM »
Love the analogy!  Thanks all for the input. - Garrett

CaptCobrajet

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Re: Is HP or RPM the greater limit to OEM part life
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2015, 08:22:16 PM »
I guess I have a whole lot more faith in the OEM C7AE-B rods (or other beefy part numbers) than some folks do.  I am not a "real" engineer, but  I am a pretty good hillbilly shithouse engineer.  That is a trademarked term, by the way, ha ha.  Back when aftermarket rods were not legal in Stock and Super Stock, we....and many others........did figure out how to make the rods live.  I absolutely agree that RPM is much harder on the rods than power alone, and really high compression ratios stress things more also.  Most "windowed" FE blocks are from RPM related failures, but not from BROKEN rods initially.  First, they spun the bearing, and then the cap came off, and then it went through the side.  My opinion is that in the vast majority of rod failures, the rod broke after it slapped around on stuff a few rounds after the bolts failed and the cap flew off.  I have seen the beams bent double at times, that did not break. 

The Lemans rods became junk when the dowels got loose, and the cap would not repeat the same place twice.  Many guys just bolted them right in there, unround, with bad clearance issues, and never knew it.  The 3/8 "nut and bolt" became the rod of choice, for the extra meat that remained around the housing bore.  When we learned how to prep the big end of the rod to compensate for the flex, and MUCH better fasteners came along, the rod and bearing troubles really became a non-issue.  If the housing bore is not fixed right, the bearing, which is too narrow for it's diameter, will spin in the bore, hence starting the snowball effect that ends up a hole in the pan rail.  While I am sure there have been cases where a rod beam did fail, the vast majority of stock FE rod problems begin with the big-end compromised.

I grew up at racetracks, watching FE's with stock rods turning 8K repeatedly, and if prepped properly, they rarely had problems.  If prepped "well" but wrong, they would not make it through one weekend.  When I do an engine these days with OEM rods, they get the 1978 "Super Stocker" prep job, along with ARP bolts.  My gut tells me that I would not worry about the rods breaking with a blower, below 6500 rpm, if it had even 600-700 HP.  I would want to polish the beams, make sure there are no stress risers, and mag them, or even X-ray them, and shot peen them.  We have a few places in Chattanooga that used to do metal parts prep work for the foundries and for CE that will do some of that stuff for surprisingly low costs.  I send six or eight sets of rods at a time, and then shelf them, and the per set cost is less.  Then, doing the big-end and adding bolts can be done as needed.  Clevite used to make a bearing # 952-P that also helped.  I find the King bearing will carry the load better these days than the Clevite or the F-M offerings.  Both the rod journal and the rod big-end bore need to have VERY minimal taper...........less than the bearing books profess.........because the FE rod bearing is absolutely too narrow when loaded heavily, for anything to be out of wack.

The big end needs exaggerated eccentricity at the parting line, and very tight vertical crush.  There are several ways to get there, but that is how they will survive.  Scary tight vertical bearing clearance, and scary loose at the part-line.  The bearings will be beautiful upon teardown.  I think it would be cool to do an FE with a light box-style forged piston, properly prepped OEM internals, and 8-10 psi boost.  If I live long enough to do it, I have plans to play with that myself.  I think the 390 crank, or even a 361 steel unit (low cost core) with the snout and tail fixed would be really durable.  3-webs, studded mains, and head studs and Cometic head gaskets.  Should run a LONG time.  Low cam lift, .500-ish, with a valve job for that idea, and a head that can be prepped to compliment the cam.................duration depending on cubes, wide separation, really good exhaust "blowdown" and good follow-up exhaust flow.  Sweet for the street. JMO.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 08:30:36 PM by CaptCobrajet »
Blair Patrick

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Stress vs RPM: Is HP or RPM the greater limit to OEM part life
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2015, 01:16:15 AM »
In simple view, double the RPMs makes FOUR times the internal stress (at least!) Given the same engine dimensions.

interesting NASCAR vs Formula !  engine comparison: piston acceleration 10,600 g's!, 12 tons of force on the connectins rod:

http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/comparison_of_cup_to_f1.htm


https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/increase-rpm-by-decreasing-stroke.706297/


machoneman

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Re: Is HP or RPM the greater limit to OEM part life
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2015, 09:18:14 AM »
RPM for sure.

A number of fellows running SBC's long ago were really winging near 9,000 rpm and sometimes over 10,000 rpms in dragsters, some Comp cars and the like. They were constantly whining about engine failures mainly related to spring failure and other assorted valve gear failures. Yet, much lower rpm BBC's, BB Dodges, BB Fords, etc. rarely if ever had valve train failures. Admittedly, back then valve spring quality was nowhere near where it is today. Still, at the track today it still seems that really high rpm engines fail at a much greater rate than lower rpms engines. 
« Last Edit: February 28, 2015, 01:07:44 PM by machoneman »
Bob Maag

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Re: Is HP or RPM the greater limit to OEM part life
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2015, 11:31:22 AM »
Agreed that rpm is the bigger killer.  I think forces from rpm increase exponentially while forces from hp increase in a linear fashion.  I don't doubt that it's more complicated than that, but that's the jist of it.

That said a 500 hp engine at 4400 rpm would be flat out boring in a hot street car.  It'd be great in a 4x4 or other heavy low speed vehicle.  I don't drive musclecars just because they're reliable.  I like to hear a screaming high rpm engine under foot.  The whole point of these things is to have fun and/or go fast.  IF it's also reliable after those other criteria have been met then that's great, but it's not the primary purpose.  A new Focus can take care of that quite well.

JMO,

paulie