Author Topic: Does EFI change old rules of thumb on Single vs Dual plane?  (Read 10100 times)

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chilly460

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Considering doing one of the simple self tuning EFI deals for the Marauder, and got to thinking about intakes.  I feel the motor is well matched now, Performer RPM on mildly ported Edelbrock heads, 270H, 9.5:1, 1 3/4" headers.  Basic motor.  But just hypothetically, if I went with a typical 445" with 10.5:1 and healthy hydraulic roller, some more head porting.  I think this is the point where the Victor could make more power.  Being in a heavy car though, i'd lean to a dual plane.....but there the question lies, does the EFI make up for a lot of the lowend loss of a single plane since it doesn't rely on signal to the carb?   

My427stang

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Re: Does EFI change old rules of thumb on Single vs Dual plane?
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2014, 08:56:37 PM »
Well, the problem with the rule of thumb is they aren't really fixed rules anyway.  A long runner single plane in a 400 or so inch FE is a big difference from a short runner single plane in a 302. So, I have found that FEs like single planes in general more than the small motors

With that being said, the port injection helps keep idle fuel a little more balanced and most SEFI units allow spark control which also is much better than a standard ignition curve, so in general, you'll gain torque, and sometimes a lot

For an example, my 489 idled at 1100 rpm with a carb, any less it would be unhappy with the a/c on or wheel turned with a PS load.  Edel RPM intake, 1000 Holley, dialed in real nice, 14 initial

With the SEFI, I idle at 900, and a/c and PS don't phase it.  Idle timing varies but real close to 20 BTDC, and I run a ported Victor which should lose torque but it gained significantly everywhere.  I have also tweaked injector timing to match valve events so its pretty well dialed in. 

Keep in mind a TBI may not do as much, BUT, I installed an RPM and a Powerjection on a 355, 268H cam, replaced an iron intake and a Q-jet, and it felt like I added 2 cylinders everywhere in the curve.  The intake should have been on the big side, but it loved it.  Not as dramatic as mine, but even a good TBI can help
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

chilly460

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Re: Does EFI change old rules of thumb on Single vs Dual plane?
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2014, 10:29:24 PM »
Ross, understand what you're saying.  For sake of discussion, I'm saying modern "big" dual plane like an RPM versus modern single plane like a Victor.  Probably no way to really answer the question, so many variables with gearing/weight/etc. 

Still tuning on my combo, trying to get it snappier around town.  If I can't get it where I want it, may go with the EFI.  Lots of choices though, for same $$....could go 445 which I'm sure would pick it up a little too :)  Just picked up new O2 sensor in hopes of verifying that my Innovate is reading correctly, haven't been able to trust it after taking a ton of jet out of it and still getting 10:1 AFR. 

My guess is on engines that are "on the bubble" between intakes, EFI would get it where the single plane isn't really giving up much down low as it would with a carb, and retain the topend.  Encouraging that you've seen real world torque increases with either EFI. 
« Last Edit: June 23, 2014, 10:57:12 PM by chilly460 »

Ford428CJ

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Re: Does EFI change old rules of thumb on Single vs Dual plane?
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2014, 11:03:43 AM »
Long as the injectors are in the runners.... Not sure it really matters at that point. Could be wrong on the whole thing...
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lovehamr

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Re: Does EFI change old rules of thumb on Single vs Dual plane?
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2014, 02:44:27 PM »
I'm running a Powerjection III on my 462 FE with a Streetmaster.  I had run a 1000cfm carb with a PI and I believe the PI was holding it back.  I switched to the TBI on the PI intake and got more drivability everywhere.  When I switched to the Streetmaster it really woke the motor up, I've got more power everywhere in the band.  The lowest that I could idle with a carb was about 1200rpm and with the TBI it's a solid 1000.  If I were to do it again I would probably go with the MSD set up.  The reviews that I've read say that it's generally easier to work with.  Here it is running.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXyc-mpd2Io&feature=player_detailpage&list=UUovvy8VHl8DVnjvNWB0GGtA

Steve

Barry_R

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Re: Does EFI change old rules of thumb on Single vs Dual plane?
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2014, 05:27:18 PM »
Its runner length and cross section.
EFI or carb.
Dual planes historically have longer runners.
Next issue of Popular Hot Rodding will have an article on an FE with a dual plane and EFI.
It did OK...

My427stang

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Re: Does EFI change old rules of thumb on Single vs Dual plane?
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2014, 07:20:25 AM »
Ross, understand what you're saying.  For sake of discussion, I'm saying modern "big" dual plane like an RPM versus modern single plane like a Victor.  Probably no way to really answer the question, so many variables with gearing/weight/etc. 

Still tuning on my combo, trying to get it snappier around town.  If I can't get it where I want it, may go with the EFI.  Lots of choices though, for same $$....could go 445 which I'm sure would pick it up a little too :)  Just picked up new O2 sensor in hopes of verifying that my Innovate is reading correctly, haven't been able to trust it after taking a ton of jet out of it and still getting 10:1 AFR. 

My guess is on engines that are "on the bubble" between intakes, EFI would get it where the single plane isn't really giving up much down low as it would with a carb, and retain the topend.  Encouraging that you've seen real world torque increases with either EFI.

Chilly, first sorry for the book, and it only scratches the surface anyway.

Barry hit on the basic premise of intake runner tuning, length and cross section, that determines volume and a tuned length.  If you look up water hammer or inertial tuning, it goes all the way back to the Ramcharger days and you can calculate an intake runner based RPM peak mathematically using runner length and cross section.

Those airflow characteristics are generally fixed, although there are more factors that ultimately effect efficiency even with a given length, for example plenum size and all the various radii (radiuses? LOL) affect how the air fills a cylinder, and of course it doesn't act alone, in the end, even the exhaust affects cylinder fill

Additionally, a torque curve is affected by the range of those runner lengths.  We had a good discussion a long while ago on Speedtalk about having matched runner lengths in an intake, or a mix of short and long.  Some wanted to focus on the peaks and have them match for overall peak power, others wanted a combo of short and long runners for a flatter curve, it really depends on the end use.  For the most part, a dual plane would do the first, the single the latter. 

Keep in mind though a single plane usually has overall shorter average runner length so they generally tune for a higher RPM overall, even though a mix of short and long may flatten the curve, the dual plane has a longer average runner length which generally tunes them to a lower rpm (note all the "generallys"  everyone has a bit different mousetrap)

The second factor that you bring up is low speed mixture and balance across all the cylinders.  Then add the difference between adding fuel at the beginning of the port with a carb, versus near the head and you add additional characteristics.  Although I think NASCAR has determined injectors farther away from the head work, and carbs sure make power, but on the same token,by changing location and then controlling it, you can easily get fuel to the intake port when you want it, which helps low end ops.

I can confidently say that I can change a blubbering idle and soft part throttle to a clean one, just by manipulating injector pulse duration, fuel pressure and injector timing.  It can be dramatic, even when the calculated amount of fuel isn't changed.  That results in more torque, but it would in an dual plane or single plane. Additionally, with the SEFI, low rpm mixture (I assume) is more balanced, but I do not tune with individual EGT or O2 sensors, but it seems it would be

I used to be reluctant to tune over the internet, but I have since learned that some basics can be done and had lots of success.  Not long ago,a guy I have never seen sent his *.bin file to me to see what I could do, it ran OK already but not real clean down low. All I did was calculate injector PW and timing based on actual cam events and send it back, and he said it went from fussy to new car like.  Peak power surely didn't change but drivability sure did, I had the same results on my 489 which is why I agreed to do it, to both try to help but also validate what I was trying to do with injector timing

So, in the end if the questions are:

Will a heavy Galaxie run well with SEFI and a single plane that is a little too big?  Yes assuming the EFI will let you tune it. 

Would a fast, small CSA intake like a Street Dominator do better in that application?  Probably. 

Would you get more torque down low with a dual plane?  You should, unless the cross section or plenum is real big or the single plane was much smaller.   Although I have not read the article, Barry's dual plane EMC will probably show that the longer runner length combined with mixture control of EFI optimized the whole curve, which is a good EMC (and street car) tactic I'd think

So as Barry eluded too, the intake itself doesn't change how acts with EFI, but the beauty of port injection is that you can play with how the fuel gets to the port and that can tune specific areas to make something work closer to the way you want it






« Last Edit: June 25, 2014, 07:33:13 AM by My427stang »
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

sumfoo1

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Re: Does EFI change old rules of thumb on Single vs Dual plane?
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2014, 09:43:17 AM »
I feel as though intakes are like cams....

If you have a certain amount of displacement... it can eat up more intake and cam without affecting it.

For instance... that victor isn't really even a crazy intake on a 428/427... now on a run of the mill 390 it's a monster. on a 445-465 motor it just flows the amount of air the engine needs, and on a 500cid+ motor you are back to... mehh...we could use more flow....

chris401

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Re: Does EFI change old rules of thumb on Single vs Dual plane?
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2014, 08:34:11 PM »
Long as the injectors are in the runners.... Not sure it really matters at that point. Could be wrong on the whole thing...
X2=Fuel atomization. A tbi would probialy need a good intake just like a carburetor, injectors in runners would have good mist at the valve despite most intakes.

fe66comet

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Re: Does EFI change old rules of thumb on Single vs Dual plane?
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2014, 12:09:19 AM »
With all my experiences  port injection with equal length short runners make a happy engine. Some do not like a throttle body and plenum  where the air cleaner goes so they compromise  and use either tbi ( stay away don't walk, run and keep the carb) port injection with a four barrel throttle body ( much better deal with good gains in efficiency). But the intake with a centered plenum still suffers from an air flow imbalance from unequal  runner lengths. If you want the classic look try to stay as balanced as possible such as a dual quad intake with two throttle body's would balance nicely and have bungs and rails installed. Just my opinion that's all there is more than one way to skin a cat( or GM ) LOL.

cammerfe

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Re: Does EFI change old rules of thumb on Single vs Dual plane?
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2014, 07:02:52 PM »
Is there any such thing as a factory dual-plane manifold for EFI?

I don't think so.

KS

My427stang

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Re: Does EFI change old rules of thumb on Single vs Dual plane?
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2014, 08:04:47 PM »
Is there any such thing as a factory dual-plane manifold for EFI?

I don't think so.

KS

Well, no, but Dodge in the 90's used long runners that crossed and then opened into the center of the plenum to get runner length all the same, and Ford of course used all very long runners extended into a plenum.  Not a standard dual plane, but hardly true single plane with only a few matched runner pairs.

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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

Barry_R

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Re: Does EFI change old rules of thumb on Single vs Dual plane?
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2014, 10:11:02 PM »
Is there any such thing as a factory dual-plane manifold for EFI?
KS

Nope.  Is there such a thing as a factory V8 single plane carb intake?
If so - what was the application? ( I know the answer, but it's pretty cryptic)

An advantage of EFI in the OEM world is that it lets them get really creative with manifold and throttle body locations and design elements.  You won't find many traditional carb style intakes of any design - single or dual plane - with a central throttle body.  Instead they work around underhood packaging constraints to optimize runner length and cross section.

plovett

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Re: Does EFI change old rules of thumb on Single vs Dual plane?
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2014, 08:13:05 PM »
I think an Edelbrock RPM would likely be the right intake regardless of if you whether you went with a carb or EFI.  A big car, hydraulic roller, etc. asks for a dual plane, even in a 445 cube combo.  It is true that the FE has some single plane intake options that would work well.  The Edelbrock Streetmaster and the Holley Street Dominator "act" like dual plane intakes for the most part.  A Victor is a is a different deal.

That said, I do think the one place where EFI really and truly works better than a carb is at very low rpm and that would help with a big single plane intake.  I've never seen a single good test where EFI beats a carb for peak power.  It's actually the other way around almost all of the time.  It is very hard to make a good apples to apples comparison though.  Mostly because of the different intake designs.  But at very low rpm EFI does have advantages in fuel metering.  My 3900 lb 1993 Crown Victoria has a little 190 hp 281 cubic inch engine.  It also has a 2.73 rear gear and a .67 overdrive with a lockup convertor.  The overall gear ratio in top gear is 1.83:1.  At 80 mph it is turning about 1830 rpm.  It handles that without a hickup and gets 24-25 mpg at that speed with the A/C on.  Try to do that with a carbureted 289 in an old Galaxie.  It's not going to happen in my opinion.  EFI rules in that domain.

For your situation, even if you up the cubes and cam, I think an Edelbrock RPM with a good carb will work better.  If you had an extremely high (low numerically) overall drive ratio, then I might reconsider.

JMO,

paulie