New MSD EFI system

[machoneman]

Looks pretty cool......

http://www.fordmuscle.com/2011/11/msd-atomic-efi/

[ScotiaFE]

but $2k or there abouts for basically a really fancy carb squirter.
When the only real advantage is a cold start.
And if you can't start a cold Hot Rod Holley FE, well then your just a rookie.
Although a couple of them sideways on a 2X4 would look cool, but then your at 4K. Yikes.

[jayb]

Does it really not use a return fuel line and pressure regulator?  I can't tell from the pictures and captions.  If it doesn't, I wonder how they keep the fuel delivery consistent?  The injectors will need 45+ psi to work correctly, and that pressure would bounce around a lot if there wasn't a return style fuel system.

All of these types of setups have advantages in fuel atomization, and disadvantages when it comes to mixture distribution to the individual cylinders.  The mixture distribution issues will make it less likely that you can get a stable idle with a big cam, and correct A/F for all the cylinders at WOT. 

My take on this is that since its only good for up to 525 HP, why not just use a carb?

[machoneman]

More here:

http://www.streetlegaltv.com/features/sema-coverage/sema-2011-msds-atomic-efi-changes-the-carbureted-world/

Since MSD just showed it for the first time at SEMA, they don't even have details on their website yet. This article claims 2 systems will be available, the second good to 620 crank hp. Agree the lack for need for a return run line doesn't sound right and I also don't get how this can work correctly. Time will tell as some early adopters try it.

That's the problem I have with trying to adapt an old muscle car to a $2K+ EFI complete system that easily is a $1,500 premium over a traditional carb and carb'ed intake. Aside from the work and $, against a well-tuned Holley, hp gains would be minimal although I would like a.) the chokeless aspects of clean starts and b.) smooth cold-running performance (before the engine fully heats up) that EFI gives. Mileage wise, sure there will be some gain over a carb but the %'s are small. JMO.  

    

[jayb]

What I like about EFI, assuming the EFI system has timing control, is that you can tune the EFI setup so that your engine with the huge, unstreetable cam idles at 750 RPM and transitions without stumbling into normal operation.  Also it automatically compensates for weather changes, so that you don't need to rejet for peak performance on a hot or cold day.  Plus if you use a direct port system you will get better cylinder to cylinder distribution than you would with any normal intake manifold.

Having said that, I also think that in a peak performance application, with an optimized carb and sheet metal intake setup, you can get a bit more power out of the carbs, because the fuel goes in at the carb and has more time to atomize and cool the A/F mixture, as compared to an EFI setup where the injectors are in the runners.  But at anything other than WOT, the carb setup will be at a disadvantage compared to the EFI setup.  It is also worth noting that in Formula 1 racing, as I understand it they put the injectors in the plenum of the sheet metal intake, aimed at the runners.  This would give the EFI system the same advantages as a carb and sheet metal intake setup, although it would then lose the lower speed advantages of a runner injected EFI system.

My stuff is all over the top street stuff, so being able to run a big cam on the street is necessary, and the EFI systems I use really help tame down those .700"+, 270+@.050" duration cams.

[plovett]

but $2k or there abouts for basically a really fancy carb squirter.
When the only real advantage is a cold start.
And if you can't start a cold Hot Rod Holley FE, well then your just a rookie.
Although a couple of them sideways on a 2X4 would look cool, but then your at 4K. Yikes.

I'm with you.  With EFI you'll pretty much always go slower, but it does have other advantages as Jay pointed out.  My 428 has a 252/260 cam and I can start it and run it in single digit temperatures, with no choke.   It'll also cruise around town at 2000 rpm.  I love carbs.   

JMO,

paulie

[babybolt]

Maybe I'm looking at that system wrong, but how would they get the pressure low enough and aerate the fuel ,like the wells in a carb, so the mixture would flow out of the boosters correctly?

Several years ago I had a thought experiment to use use a stock Ford injection system underneath a carb.  The carb would have no idle circuits and would basically just be a throttle body until about 3/4 throttle or 2500 rpm when its added fuel would "over-cover" the injection system.  Good points is that the engine would start and run reliably with the injection and it could be very inexpensive.  But then the calibration would eat up quite a bit of dyno time.  There would have to be a fuel pressure regulator able to cut injection pressure down to 4-6 psi, maybe from the return line into a small holding tank then to the carb. 

Just kinda thinking out loud, feel free to post outrageous slings and arrows, lol.

[machoneman]

Jay, you bring up a good point on being able to run monster cam specs with EFI.  Hadn't really considered that before for max effort engines where running a carb (or multiple carbs) would require a lot (!) of Holley tuning to get maximum low end, mid-range and top end performance. That or living with a soggy bottom end in street/strip engines with not quite streetable cams as I think many of us have had in the past and even still today. 

EFI does kinda' turn the tables then and allow one to run much hotter cam specs w/o the nasty side effects one often encounters while carb'ed. Food for thought indeed and thanks for the run down. 

[Joe M]

Oh boy, you guys jogged the memory of what we did back in the old days in winter.  Here is the procedure for starting the old Stang on a 10 degree Ohio morning.  Step 1, pump the gas pedal 25 times.  Step 2, crank the engine while holding pedal at about 1/4 open.  Step 3, when it coughs and tries to start, pump the pedal like mad to try and keep it running.  Step 4, after it stalls, pump it several more times and crank again.  Step 5, when it catches, keep pumping the gas pedal to keep dumping fuel from the accel pumps.  Step 6, once it is running, wedge the snow brush between the seat and the gas pedal for "fast idle".  Turn on defrosters.  Step 7, go back into house and finish coffee while the old girl warms up.
Somehow, I like the fuel injection on my F-150 better.  Step 1, turn the key.  When the engine starts, turn on the seat warmers and drive away. 

[rcodecj]

Oh boy, you guys jogged the memory of what we did back in the old days in winter.  Here is the procedure for starting the old Stang on a 10 degree Ohio morning.  Step 1, pump the gas pedal 25 times.  Step 2, crank the engine while holding pedal at about 1/4 open.  Step 3, when it coughs and tries to start, pump the pedal like mad to try and keep it running.  Step 4, after it stalls, pump it several more times and crank again.  Step 5, when it catches, keep pumping the gas pedal to keep dumping fuel from the accel pumps.  Step 6, once it is running, wedge the snow brush between the seat and the gas pedal for "fast idle".  Turn on defrosters.  Step 7, go back into house and finish coffee while the old girl warms up.
Somehow, I like the fuel injection on my F-150 better.  Step 1, turn the key.  When the engine starts, turn on the seat warmers and drive away. 

Even better, get a remote start kit. Step 1, after shutting vehicle off with the heater on, push the remote start button, while looking outside from inside the house.
Step 2, enter vehicle after all toasty warm. 

[machoneman]

Hey, you guys forgot about jacking up the front with the bumper jack, getting a old coffee can with a few holes in the rim's edge (beer can opener btw) and getting some charcoal going under the oil pan to heat up that thick oil!

That and/or taking the battery inside each night in REALLY cold weather and putting in near a furnace vent to ensue a fast spinning engine in the morning. Ole' Dad taught me these tricks long ago his old Fords!