Author Topic: Stalling/Vapor lock issues  (Read 15416 times)

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428Marauder

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Stalling/Vapor lock issues
« on: February 03, 2014, 08:29:42 PM »
Hello. I have a 1965 Mercury Marauder that has had the motor and trans changed to a 428. It was running well for awhile, after I had the carb rebuilt, then this summer I started having problems with it stalling out on me, and then not wanting to start. Usually it starts when cold and drives fine for about 5 miles before it starts to sputter and stop, particularly at low speeds.

Here's what I've done:

Added trans cooler
Replaced exhaust
Replaced points
Replaced coil
Replaced battery
Cleaned carb
Changed from electric fuel pump to mechanical

Drove it today and it ran fine, then stalled, sputtered and coughed, and again didn't want to restart but did while in a parking lot. Then on the way home it stalled again while making a u-turn, started up, and then drove the rest of the way home without a problem.

I already paid a mechanic to rip me off, charged me way too much to replace the points and clean the carb ... and somehow bent the fan and ruined my radiator, then said it was like that when I got there ... so I put in a new aluminum radiator ... problem is, a 5 minute test drive, the car is gonna be fine. Once it heats up is when it starts to stall.

Any ideas?

PS. My temp gauge is broken, so I don't know how hot it is running, but I know what an overheating motor sounds like, and it's not knocking.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2014, 09:26:37 PM by 428Marauder »
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BruceS

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Re: Stalling/Vapor lock issues
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2014, 09:11:30 PM »
428,
Kinda reminds me of a fuel issue or lack of it!  Are you sure the pump is ok?  I would also check the lines, cap, and any fuel filters in the system.  Btw when I first drove my Fairlane home it stalled and quit on me about 1 block from home!  Turned out the batt cables were trash and not making contact... I suspected it when I looked at them, and then tried jiggling them a little. It started right up and carried me that last block home.

Bruce
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428Marauder

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Re: Stalling/Vapor lock issues
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2014, 09:22:27 PM »
The pump is brand new, and I was having the same problem with the electric pump (plus flooding issues), so I'm pretty sure it's not the pump. (note: throttle seemed more responsive with the electric pump, but it was higher PSI than needed).

Car runs fine, until it heats up. Somehow the problem is related to heat.

Needs new battery cables anyway, I'll try that, but I don't suspect that is the issue.

One thing I was thinking is that the gas tank is maybe rusting from the inside, fouling the gas? Or maybe I should be using higher octane gas? I don't want to take on replacing the gas tank, if at all possible. Maybe try a can of seafoam? I've never used that stuff and can't imagine it will make a big difference.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2014, 09:40:00 PM by 428Marauder »
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bn69stang

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Re: Stalling/Vapor lock issues
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2014, 09:44:00 PM »
Are you running a carb spacer , between carb and intake ? , if not try a phenolic spacer and check fuel line from pump to carb and make sure it away from the block and intake manifold . And what octane gas are you running .. BUD
69 mach 1 , 428 C J  Blue Oval Performance BBM heads -T@D rocker s- Blue thunder intake - Comp hydr roller - MSD ignition - FPA headers- Holley 850 hp double pumper - TKO 600 - 9 inch 3.89 Detroit Locker . ride tech coil over conversion - power rack @ pinoin steering - 13 inch drilled @ slotted 4 wheel disc brakes ..

fastback 427

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Re: Stalling/Vapor lock issues
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2014, 09:48:28 PM »
I'd empty the tank and check the fuel pickup for an obstruction. Do you have inline fuel filters and if so how do they look as Bruce questioned? How close are the fuel lines to the heads, intake,and any other heat source?
Jaime
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428Marauder

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Re: Stalling/Vapor lock issues
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2014, 09:51:53 PM »
I think there is a fuel filter right before the carb, but nothing inline. Some of the fuel lines are right on top of the valve covers, I tried adding some wooden clothes pins there (old vapor lock trick) as a heat buffer, but same issue.
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428Marauder

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Re: Stalling/Vapor lock issues
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2014, 09:56:12 PM »
Are you running a carb spacer , between carb and intake ? , if not try a phenolic spacer and check fuel line from pump to carb and make sure it away from the block and intake manifold . And what octane gas are you running .. BUD

No spacer. What is a phenolic spacer? (suppose I can google it).

The cheap stuff. 87.

The guy I got the motor from said it had been rebuilt around 2000, and had less than 1k miles on it since, so if that's true ... 87 should be fine, no?

I've spent about $600 in the last month trying to figure this out ... car runs about the same. Usually it's fine for the short trips I take, like to work and back, where it has a chance to cool down, but if I try and go to run some errands after work, stop at the bank and the grocery store ... I can expect problems. Not a daily driver ... but it would be nice if it could be if I wanted it to.

The gas tank is going to need to be replaced at some point, just can't afford that right now. Gas gauge has never worked since I got it, and I suspect it's the sending unit, so when that old tank comes out ... might as well put in a whole new deal there.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2014, 10:09:03 PM by 428Marauder »
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428Marauder

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Re: Stalling/Vapor lock issues
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2014, 10:18:45 PM »
Video of running engine (back when it was on the electric pump):

http://www.flickr.com/photos/arizonaclassiccars/5446716685/in/set-72157623491547733

That was also before I replaced the exhaust, which included re-planing the exhaust manifolds. No more exhaust leak.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2014, 10:25:50 PM by 428Marauder »
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428Marauder

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Re: Stalling/Vapor lock issues
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2014, 10:31:04 PM »
I used to have a Jeep that had a little fuel injected 4 banger in it, and I installed a throttle body spacer to make it faster ... are you saying that maybe the carb is getting too hot?

Just give me a reason to install a functional teardrop cowl induction hood. I'll do it man .... seriously. I put a lot of time into making that hood nice, only part of the car ready for paint. I've always thought it would look really cool with a teardrop hood though. I'll cut a big hole in the hood if it makes the car run better.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2014, 10:57:49 PM by 428Marauder »
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jayb

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Re: Stalling/Vapor lock issues
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2014, 11:44:22 PM »
Today's fuel boils at a very low temperature compared to gas back in the day.  Its normally under 40-50 psi of pressure in a fuel injection system, so it doesn't need to have a high boiling point; the pressure raises the boiling point to a sufficient temperature.  Unfortunately this doesn't work so well for carbed systems, because the fuel is exposed to normal atmospheric pressure in the float bowl.

My guess is your fuel is boiling and flooding the engine after the engine heats up.  Here's a way you can check this:  find a local source for some leaded race gas, like 110 octane, and try 10 gallons of that in your tank.  Race fuel boils at a much higher temperature, and is much friendlier to older engines.  If the car runs well on race gas, you know the problem.

The solution is a little more difficult.  Unless you want to mix race gas with your regular fuel all the time, you have to do some things to keep the fuel and carburetor cool.  A wooden or phenolic spacer under the carb will help, and moving the fuel lines well away from the sources of heat in the engine compartment will also help.  The best solution is a return style fuel system, where there are two fuel lines from the tank, one running to the engine and the other running back to the tank.  A return style fuel pressure regulator will keep the fuel circulating past the carb, and only deliver the fuel that the carb needs.  This keeps the fuel in the line cool.  If you don't have that, especially in low fuel requirement situations, the fuel will stay in the line leading up to the carburetor for a relatively long time, and it can get hot.  As soon as it comes through the needle and seat in the carb it is no longer pressurized, and will often boil, spitting out of the carb vents and into the engine, flooding it.  With a return style fuel system the fuel is cool when it hits the carb, and doesn't boil.

Hope that helps - Jay
Jay Brown
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428Marauder

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Re: Stalling/Vapor lock issues
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2014, 11:57:36 PM »
Helps a lot. Thanks.

Next question ... can I do a return style system myself? Is there an electric pump inbetween? I'm not a really great mechanic, but I can do jobs that take a long time and don't make sense for me to hire a mechanic to do. Is it all just plumbing or do you need a gas tank set up for that? I almost don't need to try the race gas ... you nailed it.

P.S. My first car, in 1986 was a 69 Mustang coupe. Factory scoop with the turn signal indicators that didn't work. Cut a hole in the hood and put a little air cleaner in there to make it ram air. 250 inline 6 cyl, 3 speed ... was actually pretty fast, a lot lighter than a V8 fastback or convertible. Nice Mach 1. My dream car, 69 Boss 429. The black one.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 12:21:38 AM by 428Marauder »
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428Marauder

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Re: Stalling/Vapor lock issues
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2014, 12:27:57 AM »
I had an older brother, that died a few years ago ... and he was really smart and could always figure out stuff and tell me how to do stuff ... he had a REALLY fast Mustang. So, thanks to all of you for helping me. This seems like an awesome place and I will do my best to contribute here.

My brother's race car:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBzZdIBA9bU

Fastest 96 Mustang convertible .... ever? I could never understand putting that kinda money into trying to get an 8.X second thrill. If you are rich, or retired and that's how you want to spend your time ... God bless ya ... but don't be an addict about it ... spending more than you can afford. I wrecked 1 car ... in my life, a 65 Galaxie convertible ... I got it stuck on some train tracks, and a train came. Nothing I could do. Every other car I ever owned I fixed it up while I drove it, sold it for more than I paid for it. I've never made a car payment. If I don't have the money, I don't buy the car. It's insane to me that someone might spend $45k on a new car, when you might be able to find a decent 60's Shelby Mustang at that price.

Crib notes: I paid $900 for my car, done a lot of work myself ... have about $9k in parts, and outside labor alone in the car ... and it's still not ready for paint. It was a rustbucket. 4 years I been working on this car. Never again will I take on a car with rust issues. Pics in the projects forum.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 01:15:22 AM by 428Marauder »
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Ford428CJ

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Re: Stalling/Vapor lock issues
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2014, 10:34:52 AM »
Next question ... can I do a return style system myself? Is there an electric pump inbetween?


   You can do a return system yourself! But that kind of depends on the pump. Some pumps dead head and others require a return. What electric pump did you use!? And what was the PSI @ the carb?
Wes Adams FORD428CJ 
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Lenz

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Re: Stalling/Vapor lock issues
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2014, 11:21:36 AM »


Unless I missed it, you're still running the mechanical pump?  Older vacuum test gauges would often double as fuel pressure gauges.  Should run fine if you've got 3-1/2 lbs or so and your system is otherwise set up factory style. 

I agree with the earlier comment about checking your tank and lines for obstruction, but I'd also try an in-line pressure gauge close to the carb first.  You can watch from when it's cold 'till when it stalls.  I'll assume that the electric pump is somewhere down along the frame, but the same test could be run on either setup.

Vapor lock is a big deal with mechanical systems, fuel lines running over valve covers would cause me to re-route to the front and over the intake factory style, get your lines away from heat sources whenever possible.

I'm running a factory style mechanical pump with no return line on a 750 vac sec Holley with zero issues.
Len Zielinski
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428Marauder

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Re: Stalling/Vapor lock issues
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2014, 03:26:50 PM »
Next question ... can I do a return style system myself? Is there an electric pump inbetween?


   You can do a return system yourself! But that kind of depends on the pump. Some pumps dead head and others require a return. What electric pump did you use!? And what was the PSI @ the carb?

It was just a generic one. Was running at 12 PSI.
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