Educate Me on Roller Cams and the FE

[bn69stang]

Brent is on to something here  , hydraulic roller s have been around for years and think about your build . A 445 with a brand new crank , brand new rods , forged pistons and lets say even edelbrock heads then do a hyd roller and a t @ d rocker kit  .. Sounds like a very reliable , and long lasting engine . A ton of fun to drive and enjoy and never a worry about having used 40 year old rods , and other already stressed parts .. Bud 

[cjshaker]

Yep, and I wasn't trying to be a smarty pants, but you don't know how many of us would kill for an extra 20 hp on the dyno.  It helps us to learn and it makes customers happy.

I certainly understand that! For the money, it IS pretty cheap horsepower, comparatively. And horsepower, anywhere you can find it, is certainly worth considering.

I think they have finally reached a level of dependability in the aftermarket that I would even feel comfortable to consider using one....if all my blocks weren't solid lifter blocks. I always preferred solids because of their dependability, but now that kinda negates me using a roller in my engines because they're all street driven. That may just change on my next build 

[machoneman]

2X to hydraulic lifters going on forever w/o failure.  Modern roller lifter engine designs as mentioned have hundreds of millions of miles (if not a few billion, no exaggeration if one does the math) of hydro roller success.

And yes, starting out anew makes the cost less, even though nobody every said rollers were cheap! And while I do agree a well-broken in flat tappet lifter will last darn near forever, there have been way too many cam/lifter failures as noted on all of the American engine related websites (BBC, SBC, Dodge, etc.) just like this one. Today, many elect to go roller simply because, even doing everything right, they don't want to be one of those with a worn down cam lobe in a brand new rebuild. 

I do have one beef about hydro roller lifters: added valve train weight does limit rpm potential. Jay has mentioned here a number of times the real-world limits of an FE's rpm levels merely due to this added weight. It's true for other engine makes as well.  But, adding beehive springs or titanium retainers or smaller diameter stemmed valves or, most pricey of all, titanium valves is beyond the pocketbook or need for most weekend warriors.   

[turbohunter]

I'm hoping you guys are all right.
That's how I designed my new truck engine.
Hydraulic roller with roller rockers and light beehives.
Did I spend more than I needed to? Yes, but that's not the idea for me.
I want a low rpm, low cr engine with good power that will last forever.
To offset the cost I collected parts for a couple years.
Heading to dyno tomorrow with fingers crossed.

[afret]

A set of aluminum roller rockers might not be the best way to go for an engine you plan to run for a very long time without having to change things out unless you are running pretty weak valve springs like the original ones.  Regular non roller rockers like the steel Graham rockers might end up being more trouble free for an engine like that.

[turbohunter]

A set of aluminum roller rockers might not be the best way to go for an engine you plan to run for a very long time without having to change things out unless you are running pretty weak valve springs like the original ones.  Regular non roller rockers like the steel Graham rockers might end up being more trouble free for an engine like that.

Yeah, this is where I get into the experimental/bias arguments (because of asian made stuff).
I figured that (only after reading all you gentlemen's experiences for a couple years) I wanted steel rockers.
Could I have gone with OEM rockers yes, but in the spirit of the build I wanted everything roller.
I bought a set of PRW (I know) steel rockers and changed out the adjusters to Mantons along with Manton push rods.
In this way hoping to fix any hardness problems with the PRW spec adjusters.
Cross fingers.
BTW, will be on the QMP dyno tomorrow if you're in the neighborhood.

[rockhouse66]

Hydraulic roller with roller rockers and light beehives.
Did I spend more than I needed to? Yes, but that's not the idea for me.
I want a low rpm, low cr engine with good power that will last forever.
To offset the cost I collected parts for a couple years.
Heading to dyno tomorrow with fingers crossed.

I did the same.  My dyno session was last week, and with a very mild cam we quit at 5500 RPM because the power curve had flattened out (not because it dropped/floated or "whatever").  I think it would have gone 6000.  Using Harland Sharp roller rockers.  I don't know why they wouldn't be good for regular cruise night duty.  I don't plan to drive it like a long haul truck 

Those hydraulic rollers are a big heavy piece though, aren't they?

[turbohunter]

Those hydraulic rollers are a big heavy piece though, aren't they?

Just like me

[plovett]

Devil's advocate part deux.   

One other thing about roller vs. flat tappet.  If you are going to use a mild cam with say, 230 degrees or less duration @ 0.050, you will likely see little or no power gain with a roller.  Some people even say there is little gain even up to 240+ degrees, compared to modern flat tappet cams.

Flat tappet cams can actually accelerate off the cam's base circle faster than a roller, but they are limited in their "max speed".   Roller cams can't accelerate as fast, but they are basically speed unlimited.   That means a roller has to catch up to an aggressive flat tappet cam, at first, but then it blows by it and keeps increasing it's lead.  As long as the valvetrain can handle all this action, that is.  So with a small duration cam a roller doesn't have the time/distance to make much difference.   I would argue that with a very small cam a flat tappet might actually outpower a similar roller.  Maybe. 

Anyway the advantage of the roller gets bigger as the duration gets bigger.    Sounds to me, that with a 445 cubes and a desire for ~450 hp you are on kind of on the border where it will make a difference power wise.    Other considerations may be more important for you.  Like as mentioned above, cost and break-in risk.

JMO,

paulie

[bn69stang]

Don t forget about how much you will actually drive the vehicle , most of us have collector car/ truck insurance with mileage limitations . At best i would drive my car maybe 5000 miles a year , so a 100,000 motor would take 20 years ..

[Agar426]

Don t forget about how much you will actually drive the vehicle , most of us have collector car/ truck insurance with mileage limitations . At best i would drive my car maybe 5000 miles a year , so a 100,000 motor would take 20 years ..

I definitely plan on using the car as much possible.  I am fortunate enough to live in a town that is relatively mellow and free of crime, so I can drive it to work, grocery store, etc.  I definitely would like for it to be reliable enough to take it on extended road trips.  It's more important to me that it be reliable and have a reasonable amount of drivability, then it being able to run a 10 second quarter mile, or be a beast on a road course.  That being said, I still want it to be a muscle car......I want it to be able to live up to the rep that muscle cars had, even if the stories were exaggerated. 

[bn69stang]

TORQUE is what makes them fun to drive , the 5 speed makes a big difference in your ability to drive the car any where .. Bud

[Agar426]

TORQUE is what makes them fun to drive , the 5 speed makes a big difference in your ability to drive the car any where .. Bud

That's the reason I want to go with the 445 stroker....free torque!  While I'm no mechanic or engineer, I've always liked the idea of displacement over pushing an engine harder.  I figure with today's technology and parts, getting 1 hp/ci should be a reasonable expectation and still maintain a level of civility.  Honestly, I think with today's heads, cams, and efi...I hope that I can squeeze out even a little more than that!

[bn69stang]

I think you should be able to get your target fairly easy , 1.08- 1.10 per c i on a mild street motor and remember with aluminum heads , intake , water pump and header s it should about the same weight as a small block that s all iron .. Bud