Engine Advice for '67 Mustang Fastback

[Agar426]

Hello all!  I am new to this forum, but not a new FE fanatic.  What I am not, however, is a mechanic. 

The car is a '67 Mustang Fastback S-Code, C6.  The engine is the original block, with one rebuild on it.  Don't know the specifics on the rebuild, but the PO said it has an "RV" cam.  No matter....here is what I want:

1)  I plan on swapping a 5-speed, Tremec TKO-600 is the plan....
2)  I plan on running a rear end somewhere in the 3.70 range, but no lower than 4.10.....no higher than 3.50.
3)  I want reliability, and driveability....turn the key and it starts....every time!!!  NO routine!!
4)  I want it to be fuel injected for both driveability and fuel economy.  I realize that the EFI may cost top end performance and the increase in mileage will be minimal.  But, I only get about 8 mpg right now, with that kind of economy, I may as well get some performance.
5)  I am liking the idea of the 445 stroker kit
6)  I am hoping that 1hp/ci should be a reasonable expectation (at sea level...I live at 7,400 ft, so I understand the difference), and still maintain some level of driveability.  This is where I need your advice.
7)  I am thinking Performer RPM intake, Edelbrock heads or the Survival heads, the afore mentioned 445 stroker kit.  What about the cam?  Should I look at a hyd roller?  Are the performance benefits worth the expense?  Would it improve driveability?
8 )  EFI?  I am looking at the self learning TBI units, the cost of the Edelbrock MPFI kit is too high.  Are there any "preferred" units out there?  Atomic EFI? EZ-EFI?  Etc???
9)  SHould I look at a short block?  If so, from where?  I really like the stuff that Survival Motorsports is putting out there....do they offer short/long blocks?

Am I being unreasonable?  Can an FE deliver the goods, yet be driveable?  I am hoping with current techniques and technology, this is a viable option without breaking the bank.  I do realize that big blocks are more expensive to build, and FE builds are no exception, if not at the higher end.  I am basically looking for any advice that you can give.....

Thank you!

[Barry_R]

I have some obvious bias here...but can provide some answers, and have a fair degree of experience on these too...   

The 445 package would be well suited to your needs.  They pretty much always make 500+ lbs of torque, and normally deliver power between 475 HP and 525 HP at 650ish elevation depending on intake and heads.  At your elevation you can expect less, but should still be within the intended range.

I have had some mixed luck on EFI conversions.  The high end Big Stuff 3, and FAST xFI are expensive, challenging to wire, require a lot of user input, and have always worked as intended. 

My experience with the self learning systems has been less enjoyable.  I installed one MSD Atomic with worked nicely on the dyno - no report yet from the customer.  It seemed to be a very nicely designed and structured kit.  I installed a EZ-EFI with multi-port injectors in the manifold and a single 4 bbl throttle body in a stroked 428, which ran well and has been running well for a long time now.  I did two installations with TWM/Inglese stack type intakes and the EZ-EFI controllers - both ran OK on the dyno, but both were undriveable in the cars and have been replaced by xFI systems so that we could manually target certain parts of the fuel mapping.

So far the MSD Atomic looks like the nicest self learning system - it also has a simple spark control function - linear curve only.  FAST recently released a version 2 of the EZ-EFI that is said to address some of the shortcomings & limitations of version 1.  There are others I have not had the chance to try yet - I wish they'd let me go into the mapping with a laptop to adjust the VE tables on the self learning systems - I think I could get them into a usable range pretty quickly and then let the system take over from there.

Either my heads or a set of modified Edelbrocks will reach your goals.  Off the shelf Edelbrocks would meet the number at sea level but might fall short at altitude.  I am out of castings right now, and it's looking like I will not have any until year end at best.

We machine and build short blocks, long blocks, and complete engines on site here at Survival.  We deliver a nice part, but tend to run long on lead times.  The vast majority of machining is done in house - bore/hone/deck/balance/dyno - on fairly new equipment.  We do have several 390 block cores in stock.  Pricing is done per quote, and is market competitive.

[My427stang]

I run a streetdriven 482 SEFI Mustang with a TKO-600 and 4.11s., it's a dream to drive, and a 445 would be very close in personality.  I have done nothing to it other than oil changes in YEARS

Ran it carbed with 3.70s prior to the EFI, it was real nice too, but the EFI is significantly better. The key is to think about your gear ratios and driving, then pick cam, heads, and intake to match.  With a 489 I chose the .64 5th and wouldnt even consider less, even when I ran 3.70s, but a little less torque you may want to consider the .82 tranny

As far as the TB conversions, they run good, not as adjustable as the port injected units, but still very good.  I like to add a bung to the intake for a second water temp bung, but other than that they do fine.  Avoid Powerjection IMHO, but any of the name brands should do you fine, spend the extra money on an in tank pump and return line.

Self-learning EFI is typically not that at all, they have a limit on how far they can adjust away from the initial setup, my hunch is, as you separate from the norm (mild cam/small block/etc) you need more range.  Therefore if you go wild or unusual, you probably will not be as happy as you would be with a higher end kit.

[jayb]

You will have no problem meeting your performance and drivability goals with a 390 stroker setup.  I would definitely say yes on the hydraulic roller cam for your application.  I am also a huge fan of EFI, but have no experience with the self learning kits.  I have run FAST XFI, ems-pro, and Megasquirt MS3X systems and like the Megasquirt best.  If you are computer literate and understand the basics of engine operation you would have no problem tuning that system; they are not that complicated once you understand how they work.  If you decide to make that jump, I'd consider a Victor intake rather than the Performer RPM because it has bungs cast into the intake that can be drilled for the injectors.  If you end up with one of the self learning kits then the Performer RPM is the way to go.

When you get done you will be amazed at the performance of your car...

[blykins]

A 445 would make for a nice engine package for your Mustang.  Coupled with a TKO, you could practically make it a modernized torque monster that's a pleasure to drive. 

A 445 rotating assembly is the most cost effective way of getting usable horsepower and torque out of your 390.  There are a couple of different strokes available, but they all are the same price...so there's no use in my mind in paying the same amount for a smaller engine.  With ported Edelbrock heads, I think you could meet your horsepower goal, even at your elevation. 

With your Mustang, you will probably have a few bouts with "room" as far as the engine and transmission go.   The TKO will require some slight massaging of the trans tunnel, along with a custom cross member and a few other goodies.  The Victor FE intake with MPFI would be nice, but you would have to take a close look at how much hood clearance you have.  The Performer RPM with an EZ-EFI system or an MSD system would be a good compromise for you.  A 3.70 rear gear with a 445 and a TKO 600 would make for a screamer of a Mustang.

As for short and long blocks, they are available, but if you are unsure of your mechanical abilities, it may be possibly worthwhile to buy a complete running engine, that's been dyno tested and ready to drop in.   The engines that I offer are complete, down to the PCV valve, thermostat, pulleys, belts, etc.  It takes a lot of the guesswork out of installing an engine. 

[Agar426]

Wow!  Thank you everyone for the fantastic responses!!  I knew that FE fans were a tight group, but this is more like family.....outstanding!

The car this engine would be going in doesn't run bad, but the factory 390 leave a lot to be desired.  It will rev to 5,000, but there's no point, as it stops doing anything interesting past 4,000.  It's frustrating to drive on the highway because if I get on it, it will down shift and it's done.  My only option is to lightly squeeze the throttle to get much past the speed limit....on a state highway, not even interstate speeds.  In town it runs just fine, plenty of low end and a pretty steady idle.  It's got a manual choke, and if left sitting for a few days, it takes a routine to start it up.  If driven every day, it starts real nice.

Here's the deal - The car was to be left to my wife and me in my father in law's will.  Instead, he gave it to us early, as he needed the garage space.  Until I "make it my own," it will always feel like I'm babysitting his car for him.  The car is in good shape, but not a show car.  It's better than a 20 footer, in fact it's probably a solid 10 footer.....a good car for "local" car shows.  Although it's become cliche', I am really wanting to put the Shelby parts on it, as the '67 GT500 is one of my favorite cars.  With the Shelby "look" it had better be able to back it up.  Even if I don't put the Shelby fiberglass on it, I still want it to be a strong runner.  My wife and I have (I apologize for mentioning a different brand) a '12 SRT 392 Challenger, and it is amazing....the perfect blend of performance and driveability.  I would like the Mustang to be able to hang with it, all things considered.  I know that it won't hang top speed wise or handling wise.  The handling can be improved but at great cost.  I will not be auto crossing the car, but I do want it to be a better handling driver than it is.  The SRT has a theoretical top speed of 182....I never plan on taking either car there, so I'm not trying to replicate that.  What I want to replicate is the seat of pants feel, and more importantly, the flexibility of the powertrain.  With the torque the 445 would be putting out, and the lighter weight of the Mustang....I am hoping that the Mustang should be able to hang with, if not out perform the SRT during regular driving.  That being said, I do realize that the SRT has 40 years of technology on its side.  I will gladly sacrifice HP for driveability.....but with 445 cubes, I think I should be able to get both.  Your responses below have given me great encouragement!  I wish I had the $$ to simply just buy a complete, dyno tuned engine.  I don't....but I should have the money for a short block, or maybe even a long block.  I have a trusted local mechanic who could handle the install, and if needed, finish the assembly of the engine.  I could always look into the shops in Albuquerque (about 100 miles away) if my local guy is uncomfortable.  I am wondering if adding the stroker kit and aftermarket goodies to my existing block would be a viable option as well?

Thank you for all of your help.....great forum!

[ScotiaFE]

If the 390 is good shape and you are wallet thickness challenged like most of us.
Work the 390 short block.
The 67 S code 390 leaves a lot to be desired.
The C7 heads are low po at best. The S intake is even worse. The exhaust manifolds don't help.
With an "RV" cam your dangerously under powered.
A set of Edlebrocks and RPM intake, a cam of 280* plus, headers and a fuel system of your choice will really wake it up.
A converter with a higher stall in the 2500 rpm range.
The dream big is great, but a built 445 Fuel Injected with a 5 speed will cost A LOT.
If your CC can take the punishment then disregard.

[Agar426]

If the 390 is good shape and you are wallet thickness challenged like most of us.
Work the 390 short block.
The 67 S code 390 leaves a lot to be desired.
The C7 heads are low po at best. The S intake is even worse. The exhaust manifolds don't help.
With an "RV" cam your dangerously under powered.
A set of Edlebrocks and RPM intake, a cam of 280* plus, headers and a fuel system of your choice will really wake it up.
A converter with a higher stall in the 2500 rpm range.
The dream big is great, but a built 445 Fuel Injected with a 5 speed will cost A LOT.
If your CC can take the punishment then disregard.

ScotiaFE,

Good points, all of them!  Here's my dilema:  After the new year, I will be going "in house" at my job, meaning that I will convert from being a contractor.  Once I make the transition, I will be able to sell back close to 400 hours of vacation/sick time.  Uncle Sam will take about half, but I should end up with enough money to do one of the following three things:

1)  New engine
2)  TKO swap
3)  Shelby Fiberglass kit

Tough call, but I figure since the car already looks pretty good, and there really is nothing wrong with a '67 fastback to begin with....the body kit is last on my list.  I was hoping, that maybe I could do #2 and part of #1.  Here's my thoughts.....can I do a little work to the 390 now (intake, electronic ignition, etc.) while swapping in the 5 speed?  And then....when I can afford the 445, I will already have the intake, ignition, and whatever else I end up with?  Or if my 390 doesn't need any machine work, could I just plop the stroker parts in, doing a basic rebuild and be able to keep costs down?

All in all, I am having a heck of a time working up all of the scenarios, and it's been a blast!  I've only had the car in my posession for a couple of weeks, but it's been in the family for 15 years.  I've been working these scenarios for a long time!

Thanks again for all the help!

[My427stang]

There is only one issue with doing an FE with C7AE-A or C8AE-H incrementally - headers.   Headers, good exhaust, a distributor recurve and a good intake make a heck of a difference, night and day even.  However, headers for a good set of aftermarket heads are CJ exhaust port location and bolt pattern, C7AE-A heads are GT exhaust port location which means they won't generally transfer to the next engine.

So, my normal recommendation is 1 - headers and duals, 2 - recurve dist,  3 - intake and carb.  4 - All the big stuff.  If you follow that route you may have to buy a second set of headers for a big build later unless you have the C7AE-As ported which isn't always cost effective.  Problem is, if you skip #1, you'll never really make any power because GT manifolds are really really bad.

Another option would be to 1 - Recurve the distributor and tune the motor the best you can, 2 - Do your TKO and gears first.  The benefit would be a much deeper 1st gear combo for launch, then just shift where the motor wants you to shift, the top gear will still let you run fast. 

Then you can start collecting engine parts.  In my opinion, then you find a core engine and pluck away at it, whatever displacement you decide, you start the parts collection and build it, then swap it

[Agar426]

There is only one issue with doing an FE with C7AE-A or C8AE-H incrementally - headers.   Headers, good exhaust, a distributor recurve and a good intake make a heck of a difference, night and day even.  However, headers for a good set of aftermarket heads are CJ exhaust port location and bolt pattern, C7AE-A heads are GT exhaust port location which means they won't generally transfer to the next engine.

So, my normal recommendation is 1 - headers and duals, 2 - recurve dist,  3 - intake and carb.  4 - All the big stuff.  If you follow that route you may have to buy a second set of headers for a big build later unless you have the C7AE-As ported which isn't always cost effective.  Problem is, if you skip #1, you'll never really make any power because GT manifolds are really really bad.

Another option would be to 1 - Recurve the distributor and tune the motor the best you can, 2 - Do your TKO and gears first.  The benefit would be a much deeper 1st gear combo for launch, then just shift where the motor wants you to shift, the top gear will still let you run fast. 

Then you can start collecting engine parts.  In my opinion, then you find a core engine and pluck away at it, whatever displacement you decide, you start the parts collection and build it, then swap it

Would swapping a set of Edelbrock heads on the existing engine be beneficial, or are they better suited to a higher end build?  If viable on the stock engine, then the header issue would be solved, albeit with a significant cash outlay for the heads.

The distributor is the stock points distributor....would swapping to an MSD or the like be a good move on the current engine?  If so, which one?  MSD Billet?  MSD ready to run?  (what's the difference between those two anyway?  I know the ready to run doesn't need the box, but otherwise, is the ready to run comparable to the billet with the box?). 

I don't want a race car, but I want it to be strong.  I want to line up to my cousins 383 Roadrunner and be able to know that he will have a hard time keeping up with me.....either on the strip, or on a road trip!

[My427stang]

Would swapping a set of Edelbrock heads on the existing engine be beneficial, or are they better suited to a higher end build?  If viable on the stock engine, then the header issue would be solved, albeit with a significant cash outlay for the heads.

The distributor is the stock points distributor....would swapping to an MSD or the like be a good move on the current engine?  If so, which one?  MSD Billet?  MSD ready to run?  (what's the difference between those two anyway?  I know the ready to run doesn't need the box, but otherwise, is the ready to run comparable to the billet with the box?). 

I don't want a race car, but I want it to be strong.  I want to line up to my cousins 383 Roadrunner and be able to know that he will have a hard time keeping up with me.....either on the strip, or on a road trip!

Good questions

1 - Swapping a set of Edelbrocks now, wouldn't be bad, but you'd also have to make sure you had the proper flat tappet springs.  In addition, it would likely drop compression slightly.  However, if you had the budget to do that, yes you could.  Combining the heads, headers, good exhaust and an RPM intake and nice Holley would give you some gains.  Not incredible, but it would make more power.  If the 383 Road Runner is anything more than stock, I would not expect you to beat it without going inside the motor, but my hunch is it would be close depending on his build. 

One very good thing about that plan is you don't have to worry about breaking the top exhaust manifold bolts.

2 - I recommend the MSD, the ready to run is good, but having a box is better because you can get a rev limiter and you get multi spark at low rpm. You can always go back and add a box though  Even with those though, you need to recurve, because they deliver with slow curves.  The curve doesnt really effect peak HP, but it makes a hell of a difference in part throttle response.

3 - Remember, a vehicle is a sum of its systems, this stuff isn't cheap.  There is an old saying, fast, reliable and cheap, (if you don't spend the cash) pick any two.   

Last thing, 383 Mopars aren't the fastest things, but they run well and respond well to aftermarket parts, so don't expect to dethrone him easily.

[cammerfe]

Barry R at Survival is a known straight-shooter. If you talk to him, he'll be happy to talk parts and $$ and give you guidance. There are others but I have been able to trust his information for close to 15 years.

KS

[Agar426]

Would swapping a set of Edelbrock heads on the existing engine be beneficial, or are they better suited to a higher end build?  If viable on the stock engine, then the header issue would be solved, albeit with a significant cash outlay for the heads.

The distributor is the stock points distributor....would swapping to an MSD or the like be a good move on the current engine?  If so, which one?  MSD Billet?  MSD ready to run?  (what's the difference between those two anyway?  I know the ready to run doesn't need the box, but otherwise, is the ready to run comparable to the billet with the box?). 

I don't want a race car, but I want it to be strong.  I want to line up to my cousins 383 Roadrunner and be able to know that he will have a hard time keeping up with me.....either on the strip, or on a road trip!

Good questions

1 - Swapping a set of Edelbrocks now, wouldn't be bad, but you'd also have to make sure you had the proper flat tappet springs.  In addition, it would likely drop compression slightly.  However, if you had the budget to do that, yes you could.  Combining the heads, headers, good exhaust and an RPM intake and nice Holley would give you some gains.  Not incredible, but it would make more power.  If the 383 Road Runner is anything more than stock, I would not expect you to beat it without going inside the motor, but my hunch is it would be close depending on his build. 

One very good thing about that plan is you don't have to worry about breaking the top exhaust manifold bolts.

2 - I recommend the MSD, the ready to run is good, but having a box is better because you can get a rev limiter and you get multi spark at low rpm. You can always go back and add a box though  Even with those though, you need to recurve, because they deliver with slow curves.  The curve doesnt really effect peak HP, but it makes a hell of a difference in part throttle response.

3 - Remember, a vehicle is a sum of its systems, this stuff isn't cheap.  There is an old saying, fast, reliable and cheap, (if you don't spend the cash) pick any two.   

Last thing, 383 Mopars aren't the fastest things, but they run well and respond well to aftermarket parts, so don't expect to dethrone him easily.

Thanks again for the help!  I noticed the MSD ready to run doesn't have a vacuum advance.  Is this a disadvantage when compared to the MSD with a 6 or 7 box?  I apologize for the newbie questions, but as I mentioned in the first post...I am not a mechanic!  I wish I had the skills and knowledge you guys have!

My cousins Roadrunner.....yeah, it's a cool car.  My uncle bought it when he got back from Vietam.  The '71s were hitting the lots, so he got the '70 for something like $2,500 or so brand new.  It's pretty well optioned....console, pistol grip, air grabber, etc.  He had the 383 rebuilt some years ago, but it was a stock rebuild.  It runs really well...a great "touring" engine.  Doesn't do anything great, but does everything well.  A really well rounded engine.  I want to show them that the blue oval can hang!  I'm guessing that when I can ultimately afford the 445 combo, combined with a several hundred pound weight advantage, I should be able to show him the tail lights!

[Agar426]

Barry R at Survival is a known straight-shooter. If you talk to him, he'll be happy to talk parts and $$ and give you guidance. There are others but I have been able to trust his information for close to 15 years.

KS

That's definitely in my plans!  I've only been on the forum a day, and have already gotten more than I could have hoped for. Everyone here is great!

[Barry_R]

If you have the Edelbrocks, a Performer RPM, a 750/780 carb and a set of headers you should be able to give the Runner a good scare.  I used to be able to hunt 383 cars with similar stuff back in the proverbial day.  Just stay away from the 440 cars until you get the stroker and some cam in there - darn Mopes 440s are pretty strong on the street....experience talkin' here...