Cam Grind Suggestions

[frnkeore]

Glad you caught that Brent, I changed it. My dyslexia got me.

Yes, you have to close the intake valve later (IVC) to lower DCR.

[blykins]

What is the projected life of a solid roller on the street?  A milder lobe , pressure fed axle lifter, bushing or needle bearings?   Maybe under 6500 rpm and compatible springs.  I know most “toy” cars will never see any real run time as opposed to a daily driver , and was wondering if a solid would live long enough ?

Before pressure fed lifters came out, most guys were getting around 2500-3000 miles on a set of lifters.  The Comp Endure-X and Crower HIPPO lifters came out and changed things dramatically.  The bushed lifters are even higher step ups, but they are not comparable to a hydraulic lifter that stays in contact with the cam lobe all the time. 

The lash and spring load of a solid roller is what hurts them over time. 

And yes, most "toys" do not see enough mileage to really be concerned about it, but every so often there are guys who really wanna rack up the miles on their rides.

[blykins]

Glad you caught that Brent, I changed it. My dyslexia got me.

Yes, you have to close the intake valve later (IVC) to lower DCR.

Yes, closing the intake valve later will lower DCR.  Gotta be careful on the semantics though, just changing the LSA by itself will not affect the DCR.  The ICL has to be changed with it. 

[frnkeore]

I guess it can be looked at in different ways but, by widening in my mind, the intake lobe will move the same amount as the LSA.

i.e. if with a 270° lobe, you go from 108 LSA x 108 x ICL with a 63° IVC to 114 LSA x 114 ICL, resulting in a IVC of 69°

But, of course it's a juggling act and the intake lobe can be moved in any direction to obtain the desired IVC resulting in the desired DCR

[GerryP]

What is the projected life of a solid roller on the street?  ...

This comes up a lot.  The answer depends upon where you ask the question.  I look to a bigger brain trust with Speedtalk.  Here's a link to this question:  https://www.speed-talk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=43176

If you search the site, you'll see it's not the first time the questions has been asked and bench raced.  In that particular thread, there is a response from CamKing.  He is a cam grinder and designs custom pieces for many of the NASCAR and other race series teams.  But with anything, it always depends on how the particulars stack up for you.  Maintenance is very important and has a lot to do with valvetrain life when working with a solid roller.

[My427stang]

What is the projected life of a solid roller on the street?  ...

This comes up a lot.  The answer depends upon where you ask the question.  I look to a bigger brain trust with Speedtalk.  Here's a link to this question:  https://www.speed-talk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=43176

If you search the site, you'll see it's not the first time the questions has been asked and bench raced.  In that particular thread, there is a response from CamKing.  He is a cam grinder and designs custom pieces for many of the NASCAR and other race series teams.  But with anything, it always depends on how the particulars stack up for you.  Maintenance is very important and has a lot to do with valvetrain life when working with a solid roller.

I'll give you my experience, 2002-2005 in Las Vegas.  Got tied up with the guys who couldn't keep a Rat chevy together, kept eating solids and taking out crank and rods.  Usually around 1500 miles, sometimes up to 3500.  I did not build the solid roller motors but inherited them and fixed them.  Most were mellow lobes high 290 adv, 240-250 @ .050.  At the time lifters were either bushed or needles and not oiled pin.  Not racers, streeters, and probably did not take care with lash settings but also didn't run them for long.

When I called Comp to ask they said "not for street. rebuild solid roller lifters every 75 passes"   75 runs X 1/4 mile...no kidding, their words not mine (again 2002-2005 not now)

So, we add modern oiled bushed pins, we add tight lash to stop hammering, cam profiles get better, and more than anything, we aren't talking a Rat that seems to side load a lifter unnaturally.  It should be better, and some guys run the heck out of them for years, but some don't

My issue is, I had to repair someone's carnage so many times, and we fixed them with hyd flat or solid flat and everyone was tickled pink, chosen depending on RPM, and they just lasted.

So if we start at 75 1/4 mile passes or even use 3500 miles that I saw on these builds, I have a hard time believing in a solid roller on the street for anything more than a race wolf in sheep's clothing, and with that comes risk.  If it's 10 times better with a tight lash, oiled pin, you are at 35000 miles, but no warning with a solid roller, when it breaks, it breaks good.

Nowadays, for 6500 peak or under, I'd do hyd roller.  My customers aren't racers, but for those that want more RPM and reliability, I'd do a modern tool steel or DLC coated solid flat tappet.  Racing, you generally need to run a solid roller for the profile, so I get it.

I do know there will be 50 guys that say they last, and stuff has changed, but I am not a fan for a street strip vehicle.

[GerryP]

...
I do know there will be 50 guys that say they last, and stuff has changed, but I am not a fan for a street strip vehicle.

Running a solid roller on the street is just putting the Devil on the door.  That's just my opinion.  They last anywhere from 1,000 miles to 100,000 miles.  There are more consistently reliable choices.  Hydraulic flat, solid flat, or hydraulic roller for a street car.  Again, consistent reliability.

[blykins]

...
I do know there will be 50 guys that say they last, and stuff has changed, but I am not a fan for a street strip vehicle.

Running a solid roller on the street is just putting the Devil on the door.  That's just my opinion.  They last anywhere from 1,000 miles to 100,000 miles.  There are more consistently reliable choices.  Hydraulic flat, solid flat, or hydraulic roller for a street car.  Again, consistent reliability.

Agreed.

And they may last a little longer on belly button engines with light valves, rev kits, etc., but different engine families handle them differently. 

[manofmerc]

Oregon Cam grinders have several different lobes to pick from and Ken is familiar with FEs

[My427stang]

...
I do know there will be 50 guys that say they last, and stuff has changed, but I am not a fan for a street strip vehicle.

Running a solid roller on the street is just putting the Devil on the door.  That's just my opinion.  They last anywhere from 1,000 miles to 100,000 miles.  There are more consistently reliable choices.  Hydraulic flat, solid flat, or hydraulic roller for a street car.  Again, consistent reliability.

Agreed.

And they may last a little longer on belly button engines with light valves, rev kits, etc., but different engine families handle them differently.

X 3

Oregon Cam grinders have several different lobes to pick from and Ken is familiar with FEs

He does, but I would want to see the exact lobe choice.  I have all his lobe profiles here, use them now and then, and have made power with them, but I have had to pick and choose from the list for individual lobes, some are just not as perfect as then can be when combined as he lists them.

Cerainly markedly better than many of the off the shelf Summit offerings, but need to look close if trying to run it upstairs

[Barry_R]

  Hydraulic roller will work too, but it requires some work to the heads so that a modern spring locator will sit down on the head.

If the head retain the original +/- 1" cast/machined locating step on the guide, their is a PAC beehive that will snap into place and do a reasonable job without a locator (iron heads).

I would steer toward a hydraulic roller if at all possible.

I don't really put much faith into the whole DCR deal. 
It's useful guidance.  But you can be led down an improper path if you try to "optimize" that number.
It does not take into account a host of very critical factors - chamber shape, piston dome shape, intake manifold and port efficiency, exhaust system efficiency, etc.
At peak torque cylinder pressure is gonna be cylinder pressure no matter what cam you use to crutch excess compression.

An old school iron Hemi chamber with huge ports, big domed pistons, zoomies, and tunnel ram can "poop out" the same DCR number as a modern chamber and piston with a long runner intake and a highly tuned exhaust.
One is gonna have different fuel tolerance than the other....

[blykins]

I have done the beehive thing, but don't really like being locked into one spring.

Agree on the DCR calculations.  I use it as a coarse assessment if something's going to work or not.  I've found that there's no real DCR number where things magically work and where they don't.  At a point, volumetric efficiency plays a larger role.

[Barry_R]

I have done the beehive thing, but don't really like being locked into one spring.

Agree on the DCR calculations.  I use it as a coarse assessment if something's going to work or not.  I've found that there's no real DCR number where things magically work and where they don't.  At a point, volumetric efficiency plays a larger role.

Definitely agree on the single spring - - but it's a working solution to an otherwise challenging situation - especially when you don't want to alter a valuable set of castings.

[Hotrodjohn71]

I like this Howards cam suggested by Frnkeore:

252342-10 CL252342-10 265 265 230 230 .560 .560 110 106 .022 .022 1,13

Is anyone using this cam? Id like to know how the idle and idle vacuum is.

[My427stang]

Idle vacuum will be "plenty"

However, I am not a fan of that cam at all.  A set of CJ heads really need some split, a single pattern cam is giving up along the entire curve.  Even stock Ford knew it.

Vacuum is easy to control with LSA and lesser extent ICL. 

Although there are many ways to skin the cat, my opinion without knowing all the details is something closer to a 270S intake lobe with a 282S exhaust lobe, maybe even a little more duration on the exhaust side, centers spread to meet vacuum and ICL between 105 and 109 depending on SCR.  Seems very specific, but is really a generic recommendation, I would take all the engine and use data and likely use much better lobes, just trying to show thought process of what I think the heads would benefit from.