BBM engine rotation

[bsprowl]

My BBM engine rotation with just the crank, rods, pistons and cam takes almost 40 ft-lbs. to break away and 32-35 ft-lbs. to maintain rotation.  I removed the rods and pistons and the crank and cam spin easily at only 10 in-lbs. 
The pistons are Icons IC872R and IC872L 0.017 and measure 4.25.  The rings are marked TS 4.255.  I reinstalled the number one piston and rod and it took 30 ft-lbs. to start rotation.
 
I removed the piston and checked the ring gap.  The top piston ring was gapped at 0.015. the second at 0.014.  I cannot get the support ring for the oil rings out of the oil ring groove.  As installed it measures 0.012.
 
How do you remove this support ring?  Wile you can slide this ring away from piston pin so it doesn't block the removal of the pin, I would think it is removable. 

I plan to gap the top rings at 0.022, the second rings at 0.020, and the support ring at 0.020 also.

[blykins]

It’s removable.  Get in behind it with a little screwdriver or something, pull the end out away from the piston and just spiral it off the piston. 

[Joe-JDC]

You might want to consider gapping that second ring at .024" if you are going with .022" on the top ring.  Joe-JDC

[bsprowl]

I forgot to ask is anyone knew just what I had. Specifically, I had not heard of Icon.  Are they a good piston maker or a cheap chinese copy.  I found their site and used their search engine but did not find my Piston model (IC782).  I did get a list of Chevie pistons. 

Does the Ring id of TS indicate that a standard or low tension ring set?   

[blykins]

I would consider Icon on the lower end of the various piston manufacturers, maybe on par with Probe Pistons if you remember them.  Someone more knowledgeable than me can fill us in on where they're made.  If I remember correctly, they used to be an off-shoot of Wiseco. 

IC782 is a BBC piston, 4.250" bore size, 27cc dome, with 1/16, 1/16, 3/16 ring sizes. 

You would need a specific part number for the ring pack to determine what tension they are.  TS is just a Total Seal brand.

[bsprowl]

Wish you were correct but the pistons have a dish that fits the valve layout and come in left and right dishes and no dome so they wouldn't work with the Chevie valve layout. The pistons are stamped IC782L and IC782R. 

Do you know if the support ring part of the ring package or does it come with the piston?

[blykins]

Bob, an IC782 is a Chevy piston.

If it's an IC872, then yes, that's an FE piston.  7.5cc flat top, same ring package. 

Normally, the oil rail supports come with the pistons, not the rings.

[bsprowl]

You are correct, as my delixia got me again.

I think I have dientified the problem.  THe number piston supporet ring for the oil ring grove is twisted and does lay flat.  When I tired to reinstall the oil rings I could not do so.  All of the other oil rings move fairly easily but this own did not when I was trying to get it apart.

I gapped and install the 2nd piston resulting in a breakaway torque of 80 in-lbs and a turning troque of 60 in-lbs. Piston 3 gave me a breakaway torque of 12 ft-lbs and a turning torque of about 8 ft-lbs. 

[Barry_R]

Glad you found the problem.  Icon is a division of Silvolite - a low cost cast piston manufacturer.  Their cast pistons used to be made in Mexico, but don't know where the forged Icon parts are made.  They are the same guys who make the KB hypereutectic pistons.

I do not like oil support rails on pistons - sometimes it seems like I am the only one who doesn't - but I stand firm on that opinion.  Piston guys spent a huge amount of effort getting ring grooves perfectly machines and smooth, then we put a chunk of material in there than binds on the ID and is deformed by design.  Some combinations pretty much require them, but 90% or more of the popular FE packages don't need to use them.  You already have the parts and they will work.  Fix it and carry on.

[bsprowl]

The support spacer is twisted vertically – won’t lay flat in the groove and won't allow the oil ring to fit.  When I removed the oil control rings I had to pull them out.  They would not slide around in the groove.  Now I cannot get the large oil ring into the groove and when I tried to install one of the narrow oil rings it twisted and is unusable. 

Icon has no pistons in stock.  Estimated delivery date is three months out.  So far I haven't located a Total Seal dealer who will sell me a single set of pistons rings.  All I can find is a box of eight sets at about $300.

[blykins]

Glad you found the problem.  Icon is a division of Silvolite - a low cost cast piston manufacturer.  Their cast pistons used to be made in Mexico, but don't know where the forged Icon parts are made.  They are the same guys who make the KB hypereutectic pistons.

I do not like oil support rails on pistons - sometimes it seems like I am the only one who doesn't - but I stand firm on that opinion.  Piston guys spent a huge amount of effort getting ring grooves perfectly machines and smooth, then we put a chunk of material in there than binds on the ID and is deformed by design.  Some combinations pretty much require them, but 90% or more of the popular FE packages don't need to use them.  You already have the parts and they will work.  Fix it and carry on.

That’s right, Keith Black, not Wiseco.  Thanks.

[My427stang]

Sorry I am late to the game, been literally traveling coast to coast in every direction for the past month. 

The other thing I recently ran into, with a Ross piston that was built to spec for PBM, was an oil ring support for a 347 SBF that did not have a locating dimple, most do and they should. After talking to Ed Urcis at Ross, there are some bulk buys done to spec and that's how PBM wanted them.  However, I wanted a dimple to keep from rotating.

Not having a dimple wouldn't cause your issue of couse, but I don't want the oil ring support ends to be unsupported if the support rotates, so I prefer a dimple.  If you do have dimples, make sure the dimple sits in the unsupported gap and pointing down, if you don't may want to get 8 supports.

I understand yours are ICON, but Ross makes plenty of oil ring support spacers, if ICON cannot sell you a single, Ross may have a compatible version.  If you need any help let me know, I am direct with Ross and have a good relationship with them.

[blykins]

The support spacer is twisted vertically – won’t lay flat in the groove and won't allow the oil ring to fit.  When I removed the oil control rings I had to pull them out.  They would not slide around in the groove.  Now I cannot get the large oil ring into the groove and when I tried to install one of the narrow oil rings it twisted and is unusable. 

Icon has no pistons in stock.  Estimated delivery date is three months out.  So far I haven't located a Total Seal dealer who will sell me a single set of pistons rings.  All I can find is a box of eight sets at about $300.

Did you verify that it's the support's problem?  I've had some pistons where there was a burr or the groove wasn't cut right and the groove simply didn't have enough room for everything that was supposed to be in there.

I can get single packs of rings, but would need to know if it's a standard tension or low.

[ArtZarateJr]

Wow.....the Mahle 4.270 pistons break at 12lb/ft and rotate @ 10lb/ft. This engine is still on the stand with no runtime. Does it speak a lot on the 1mm, 1mm, 2mm ring pack, or is there something else mechanically wrong?

[blykins]

Wow.....the Mahle 4.270 pistons break at 12lb/ft and rotate @ 10lb/ft. This engine is still on the stand with no runtime. Does it speak a lot on the 1mm, 1mm, 2mm ring pack, or is there something else mechanically wrong?

Well, both.  The metric ring packs do roll over a lot easier, but he's got an oil rail support that's whopper jawed.