Author Topic: Couple of easy build questions  (Read 6330 times)

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cjshaker

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Re: Couple of easy build questions
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2024, 04:29:46 PM »
Let it be known that I'm not arguing for what's right or what's wrong, I'm just saying that this is the way I've done it for a long time and have never had an issue.  If the block was already painted, I personally wouldn't take the time to scrub it clean.

With all due respect, Brent, you ship engines out the door. You don't use them. I probably wouldn't make it a priority to complain to the builder if I did have a problem.

It's not hard to put some painters tape over the holes, place the pump on loosely, then cut around the pump outlets, peel off the excess, and you have a perfect match for gasket sealing. Like Rory said, it only takes a few minutes for some piece of mind. That's how I do it. But I also primer for the best paint adhesion, which would add a bit of thickness and probably not help the situation.
Doug Smith


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'70 F-350 390
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blykins

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Re: Couple of easy build questions
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2024, 05:24:19 PM »
Trust me, Doug, customers complain about everything.  If a water pump started leaking (or a valve cover or a timing cover, or an oil pan), I'd hear about it.  Some guys put 10k miles on their first year and a lot of guys are as green as grass when it comes to engine stuff.  They're not afraid to speak up.   I wish all my customers were as slick as you and Rory, but that very rarely is the case.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2024, 05:43:24 PM by blykins »
Brent Lykins
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pbf777

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Re: Couple of easy build questions
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2024, 06:02:44 PM »
Besides, even if the paint softens into alien spit, where's it going to go?  It's trapped between the block and a gasket squeezed by a bolted on water pump.

Exactly.  If the liquid is getting between the gasket and the block then the gasket was compromised to begin with. 


     We seem to forget that the paint layer has a thickness, or distance sum between the block casing and gasket surfaces, and potentially as the paint degrades within this hold-off area it may not do so in a homogeneous manor and therefore pathways maybe formed much in the way that water forms caverns containing a labyrinth of passages in the earth.   ;)

     Instead of attempting to prove that the presents of the paint isn't going to cause any issues, we should just acknowledge that at times some have not experienced any difficulties, great; but not that others, under any circumstances, absolutely will not.  After all, if in doubt, lets follow the examples set forth by the O.E.M.'s whom spent a lot of time and money establishing the best practice, and you won't find any paint there,......................I wonder why?   ???

     But, as is and should be: "To each his own"!   :)

     Scott.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2024, 06:04:57 PM by pbf777 »

cjshaker

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Re: Couple of easy build questions
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2024, 10:17:32 PM »
Trust me, Doug, customers complain about everything.  If a water pump started leaking (or a valve cover or a timing cover, or an oil pan), I'd hear about it.  Some guys put 10k miles on their first year and a lot of guys are as green as grass when it comes to engine stuff.  They're not afraid to speak up.   I wish all my customers were as slick as you and Rory, but that very rarely is the case.

LOL, fair enough. ;)
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

My427stang

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Re: Couple of easy build questions
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2024, 11:06:10 AM »
I think this is a silly and unanswerable argument.

The guys who paint haven't seen a failure...and the guys who don't paint haven't seen one.

Of course, you can say "in theory" the paint can fail...but you can also say "in theory" the paint can be a binder or adhesive.  Nobody is talking real testing or differences in gasket material or paint or prep, it's all inference or circumstantial discussion.

I am also not buying the OEMs were that careful, they painted over all kinds of stuff and missed lots of others and were generally as inconsistent as heck.  As an example, would you recommend painting a soft rubber hose with a petroleum-based paint and reducer?  Probably not, but Ford did, they doused a CJ bypass like a fat kid's fries with ketchup

I prep the surface and I paint, without fear, both with urethane single stage on concours engines and spray cans on others.  I have yet to have a single water pump leak on mine or a customer's engine, EVER, in 40 years of building all kinds of engines, but admittedly my own 489 FE has only been together, with water in it, for 18 (soon 19) years.



« Last Edit: December 10, 2024, 11:19:29 AM by My427stang »
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

TJ

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Re: Couple of easy build questions
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2024, 01:24:09 PM »
I think this is a silly and unanswerable argument.

The guys who paint haven't seen a failure...and the guys who don't paint haven't seen one.

Of course, you can say "in theory" the paint can fail...but you can also say "in theory" the paint can be a binder or adhesive.  Nobody is talking real testing or differences in gasket material or paint or prep, it's all inference or circumstantial discussion.

I am also not buying the OEMs were that careful, they painted over all kinds of stuff and missed lots of others and were generally as inconsistent as heck.  As an example, would you recommend painting a soft rubber hose with a petroleum-based paint and reducer?  Probably not, but Ford did, they doused a CJ bypass like a fat kid's fries with ketchup

I prep the surface and I paint, without fear, both with urethane single stage on concours engines and spray cans on others.  I have yet to have a single water pump leak on mine or a customer's engine, EVER, in 40 years of building all kinds of engines, but admittedly my own 489 FE has only been together, with water in it, for 18 (soon 19) years.

Fwiw, I'm in the "it's not likely to leak" camp.  To be sure, I hope my comments are taken as constructive discussion and not to advance the unanswerable argument.

I think it's weird how folks focused on whether or not it will leak.  The OP didn't ask if it will leak.  I thought someone would comment on use of rtv silicone.  I don't believe that's necessary for water pumps.  I've used lithium grease to dress the gaskets and even tried silicone dielectric grease....makes removal later a lot easier.  I think I got that idea from Brent.  Then I'll use thread sealant on the bolts.   

Also fwiw, like I said earlier, any paint trapped by the gasket will likely stay in place until the pump is removed down the road.  I wouldn't over spray the area because any paint not trapped by the gasket (especially rattle can paint) will likely lift and end up in the coolant as non-dissolving skins...maybe in the t-stat or radiator but most likely stuck in the pump where no one will know.  And no, that's not theory.  So that's kinda like dropping a cookie, picking it up and eating it...not likely to hurt you but do you want to eat it?

Since you mentioned hoses, a guy would have to go out of their way to cause failure with paint.  There are a few common automotive chemicals that should never be applied to certain types of hoses.  I'll leave that discussion for another time.  :)
« Last Edit: December 10, 2024, 01:32:44 PM by TJ »

Joe-JDC

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Re: Couple of easy build questions
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2024, 05:39:03 PM »
JMO, but the type of paint used would be the real issue of whether it softens or not.  An Engine enamel or high temperature paint should not soften with water/antifreeze/oil.  I found that if you use ceramic caliper paint or ceramic aluminum wheel paint that it will withstand just about any engine liquid.  Joe-JDC
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Barry_R

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Re: Couple of easy build questions
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2024, 01:02:04 AM »
Guys are worried if paint on a gasket flange could degrade and get into a vintage engine cooling system where you could toss a decent sized cat through the smallest opening. 

Three threads from now somebody will recommend spray painting their head gaskets, somebody else will spray can their own piston coatings with a kit from Amazon, and next week another guy will be buttering his intake valley with glyptol.

What a world.... ;D

blykins

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Re: Couple of easy build questions
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2024, 05:43:38 AM »
Guys are worried if paint on a gasket flange could degrade and get into a vintage engine cooling system where you could toss a decent sized cat through the smallest opening. 

Three threads from now somebody will recommend spray painting their head gaskets, somebody else will spray can their own piston coatings with a kit from Amazon, and next week another guy will be buttering his intake valley with glyptol.

What a world.... ;D

Whoever started the glyptal trend needed to be tarred and feathered. 
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
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My427stang

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Re: Couple of easy build questions
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2024, 07:43:46 AM »
Guys are worried if paint on a gasket flange could degrade and get into a vintage engine cooling system where you could toss a decent sized cat through the smallest opening. 

Three threads from now somebody will recommend spray painting their head gaskets, somebody else will spray can their own piston coatings with a kit from Amazon, and next week another guy will be buttering his intake valley with glyptol.

What a world.... ;D

Whoever started the glyptal trend needed to be tarred and feathered.

Barry/Brent - Amen!
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

cjshaker

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Re: Couple of easy build questions
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2024, 11:37:20 AM »
Guys are worried if paint on a gasket flange could degrade and get into a vintage engine cooling system where you could toss a decent sized cat through the smallest opening. 

For me, It's not about pieces getting into the cooling system, but rather if it would cause the pump to start weeping or leaking.

Following the logic, If it's nothing to worry about, why worry about painting over the intake sealing surface? Or a carburetor pad? Just use a fuel resistant paint, right? Of course nobody does that...

And Ross, didn't the factory paint the engine as an assembled unit? Wouldn't the sealing surfaces have been clean and bare when assembled then? So I fail to see the point in saying that the factory wasn't that "careful".
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

My427stang

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Re: Couple of easy build questions
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2024, 02:07:54 PM »
Yes, they painted them assembled, my point was they also painted the rubber bypass hose and hose clamps.  So to me, any "fancy forethought" of what the effects of paint had on parts and sealing, likely were only those of convenience and assembly speed.

With an iron pump, painting it all was easier on the assembly line.  In fact, if I have an all iron one, I paint it assembled too, why paint a bare block when you need to paint the pump and bolts too?  However, if an alum pump, I paint the block and do not scrape it.  If we want to get real geeky, what happens to the hoses and edges of the gaskets when paint leaches under them?  Again not an issue in the real world, but neither is paint or no paint.

My larger point is that we are arguing about something we have never tested formally.  Some of us think the paint will fail, some think it won't, neither have had an issue.  That's the punch line, the water pump...machined surfaces on both sides...likely has the easiest pair of surfaces to seal on the entire FE, other than being careful on the one bolt threaded into the water jacket.  You can go paint or no paint, sealer or no sealer, cheap or expensive gasket, I never see ANY leak. So no testing, no failures, seems like a lot for nothing.


« Last Edit: December 11, 2024, 02:58:52 PM by My427stang »
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

TJ

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Re: Couple of easy build questions
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2024, 02:58:26 PM »
Guys are worried if paint on a gasket flange could degrade and get into a vintage engine cooling system where you could toss a decent sized cat through the smallest opening. 

Three threads from now somebody will recommend spray painting their head gaskets, somebody else will spray can their own piston coatings with a kit from Amazon, and next week another guy will be buttering his intake valley with glyptol.

What a world.... ;D

For clarity, I don't recall anyone feeling worried about what could happen if a few little paint skins got into the cooling system.  In fact I said it wouldn't likely hurt anything.  Since the OP asked, I thought it'd be nice to know and let them decide if it would bother them. 

Also for clarity, I appreciate the different points of view especially from folks who've done this for a while.  That's a lot better way for me to learn then when I mess something up and learn the hard way.

As an aside, I helped someone root and flush a double handful of powdery debris from their new (aftermarket) block coolant jacket.  It didn't seem to hurt cooling but the guy didn't want to just leave it in there.  My guess it was residue from previous engine(s) on the dyno.  So I got to help remedy someone else's lackadaisical coolant hygiene. 


For not caring if debris gets into the coolant I'm guessing Barry is one who goes pee with the seat still down...

And to repeat what I said earlier, I still think that looks like a gnarly paint job.  It's no where near as neat as Brent's example. I would scrape that off before installing the pump. 
« Last Edit: December 11, 2024, 03:10:53 PM by TJ »

GerryP

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Re: Couple of easy build questions
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2024, 03:06:28 PM »
If we are not careful, a college professor will snag an $8.7Billion grant to study this subject.

Boiler Ben

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Re: Couple of easy build questions
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2024, 04:25:15 PM »
I’ve enjoyed reading everyone’s comments. I haven’t 100% decided what I’ll do with the water flanges but I probably won’t mention it either way!  I also learned I shouldn’t label any post as an easy question.