current fuel injection options?

[nick c]

Trying to get a better grasp on the current options for fuel injection and the FE motor. 

A google search yields various accounts of success stories, but also incidents of users who struggled to achieve reliability and durability.  It doesn't appear that any one manufacturer is immune.  I do understand that a very small number of dissatisfied users can distort the actual performance of a given product.  The end user's proficiency and understanding is also a consideration. 

I'm hoping to get a better understanding of the different options, their quality, and perhaps the relative merits of TBI vs port injection.

The offerings I'm aware of are:

Fitech
Edelbrock Pro flow
Holley has what appears to be 4, 5(?) distinct offerings (Sniper, Stealth, terminator, atomic, dominator)
FAST
Summit max-efi
Pro-M racing ($$)
(Megasquirt? Haltech?)

The Holley offerings are a bit confusing at first glance. 

[My427stang]

I run an early Pro-M on my Mustang with some significant modification and a Pro-flo on my truck.  Both do great, the Pro-flo is more  fancy gadget than performance oriented and didn't fit well.

That being said, every one I do for a customer is a Sniper now or Terminator X if port injection.  2 last year, a 511 FE and a 347 SBF on the stands now.  Holley has great support, nice website for getting help, easy and intuitive handheld or laptop connection, and gives you a lot of alternatives when growing into it.

I like the Sniper Stealth for a TBI for looks, recommend you get a matching distributor, Hyperspark or DUal Sync, and if you want port injection, build it in pieces and drive it with a Terminator X box.

Happy to offer more detail

Nothing to say about FAST, FiTech but they don't seem to have the following of the Snipers

[gregb]

I have a Fitech on a car, and a Holley Stealth Terminator on another.  Holley has better support, but I have not really needed any with either setup. Both run well, I like the Holley better.  If I was getting one today, I'd go with the Sniper Stealth......or one of the Sniper versions.....

[nick c]

I run an early Pro-M on my Mustang with some significant modification and a Pro-flo on my truck.  Both do great, the Pro-flo is more  fancy gadget than performance oriented and didn't fit well.

That being said, every one I do for a customer is a Sniper now or Terminator X if port injection.  2 last year, a 511 FE and a 347 SBF on the stands now.  Holley has great support, nice website for getting help, easy and intuitive handheld or laptop connection, and gives you a lot of alternatives when growing into it.

I like the Sniper Stealth for a TBI for looks, recommend you get a matching distributor, Hyperspark or DUal Sync, and if you want port injection, build it in pieces and drive it with a Terminator X box.

Happy to offer more detail

Nothing to say about FAST, FiTech but they don't seem to have the following of the Snipers

Holley has the Sniper kits on sale right now, the master kit includes a paired fuel system to go with it...   

Terminator kits are on sale as well, but they seem to offer a great deal more control than the dinosaur FE really needs.  However the ecu is not integrated into the throttle body assembly.  I wonder if that would make the added expense worthwhile?

[My427stang]

It's nice to get the ECU away from the heat, but depends on the car and where you put the remote ECU to say if it's worthwhile.  Hang the ECU above the header on a fender, it may not be that beneficial.

I'd look at features you need, or expect to need in the future and go from there.  What is the build and the use of the engine?

[Ranch]

I have the Holley Terminator X on a 406 for about 18 months and to tell you the truth, how's that saying go "If I knew then what I know now",  I would have kept my Quick Fuel 750 SS AR.
 I only use mine on the street, it's a 4 speed car with the Comp 282 cam, MSD..
Fuel injection helps with vapor lock but a return regulator close to your carb solves that problem.
MPG, don’t let them fool you 10 is about the best I get on both
Performance, I got the stealth and found out you can’t set it up like progressive linkages, so it’s either idol or all in, makes it kinda tuff with a clutch on hills.
The ads don’t tell you that it doesn’t like dual plane manifolds or cams with 110* lobe separation or more.
Both my Quick Fuel and my Terminator X Stealth were set up on dynos so that’s about equal.
I saw my engine on a engine dyno make 430 hp, 460 trq with the Quick Fuel.
So if I had to do over again I would have saved about 1200 dollars, and I know how to work on carbs but not  EFI.  So if I start having a problem  ’ll just go back to Carburetor.

[My427stang]

Can't argue with your results, but I can say, having ignition control makes it significantly more adjustable and can make it better

I have heard of the dual plane issue, but haven't seen it.  That being said , I generally notch the dividers anyway with a dual plane, so it may be why.  However, assuming the IAC doesn't make a vacuum leak on only one bank, it shouldn't cause an issue, but I have heard it.

As far as LSA over 110, doesn't compute for me, every single EFI engine I do is over 110, (my Mustang is 110 LSA, 72 degrees overlap but also Mass Air Flow equipped) but LSA alone doesn't matter much, it's really how much overlap.  I could buy a typo that excessive overlap for tighter LSA could screw with idle due to unburned fuel in the exhaust, but not greater.  Would be interested in what you saw on that.

You make a valid point though, 50% of the builds I do are carbureted with standard ignition curves and they do great.  However, so does EFI, but once you start understanding the programming, you can do magical cheetah flips with timing and mixture in a variety of situations with EFI.  Do you NEED that?  Not necessarily, but when you do, it's real nice.

Don't get me wrong though, I agree on your experience, 1200 bucks worth of stuff, maybe 2000 when you add ignition, plus more high pressure fuel changes.  Someone really has to have a desire or need, if you don't, it's a lot of money

[66FAIRLANE]

I have been using my Sniper since 2017 and really like it. Its been on two configurations of my 390 both with Performer RPMs. I do run an open spacer though (did with my carbs too). I also use a fixed orifice PCV. My first cam was a 110* split and made 6.5" of vacuum with carb and 7" with the Sniper. It operated fine (better than any carb I had on it) with no need to open loop the idle and off idle areas. I do not run ignition control as the cost is prohibitive and my optical trigger generates no EMI/RFI issues. Suggest you post your datalogs and config on the Holley EFI forums and get some opinions. Cant hurt.
 

[CV355]

I'm running a Super Sniper (8 inj) in a blow-through setup.  Part of me wanted to go port injection and run Terminator X, but the Sniper has been decent.  The only issues I've encountered were due to my own lack of experience with tuning. 

I have read that the newer Sniper units have better RFI shielding (mine was an earlier model), otherwise you can get inexpensive faraday cloth and line the ECU cavity in the throttle body casting and the cover.  I also ran shielding over all I/O cables, and loomed the spark plug wires cleanly and away from the TB.  I haven't had a single issue with RFI/EMI. 

For fuel economy, I'm getting about 7mpg average, maybe 9-10mpg on the highway at 62mph.  That's with 484ci and a blower. 

One major advantage that TBI has versus port injection is air charge cooling effect for blow-thru applications.  The IATs are almost cut in half with TBI or carb setups (time + latent heat transfer for vaporization).  No intercooler was needed.  If I was running port injection, I'd have a large air/water intercooler.

After I bought the Sniper unit, but before I had it installed and running, I saw a lot of negative comments about it online.  I was nervous about it thinking I had made a mistake, but the majority of the issues stem from people not knowing how to properly set up and tune it (myself included, I'll admit that), and people who incorrectly installed/wired it and peripherals (thankfully not my issue).  The more time I spend on the Holley forums, the more I'm seeing that.  Can't blame the product if the end user is making the mistake... 

[cammerfe]

Blunt statement. I WILL NEVER USE A CARBURETOR AGAIN.

My first car started life with a 2 barrel carb. ('53 Merc). As I started hot-rodding, I converted to 3 Stromberg 97s on an Offenhauser manifold. I learned a lot.

The next car was a '54 Customline, into which I installed a rebuilt '57 312. Over a period of time I went from a single 2 barrel to 3 2s, and then a factory race manifold with a pair of 4 barrels. Then I went to a Paxton VS 59 with a pair of bonnets on the carbs.

My next car was a new '64 Custom with a 427-T engine with a pair of Holleys.

A year later I got a new Mustang with the 'K' engine, and before long I'd installed the Paxton VS59 in an enclosure which required a Holley re-done by H. Droste who worked at Triple-E but was a Holley employee.

All of the above is to say that I've had LOTS of experience with carbs. I won't bother to detail my side excursions with DCOE Webers on a couple of occasions.

I've even had experience with mechanical FI, including one that was a daily driver for a couple of years.

And then, when Holley first came out with EFI designed to retrofit on a carbureted engine, I was Tech Editor-At-Large for Super Ford Magazine. I talked to their new EFI group, asking when they'd be coming out with a package for a fit on a dual-quad application. After saying it'd be several months, at least, they admitted the idea was on the back burner. I offered to be the guinea pig in putting things together---and write about the adventure.

We used Brother Lon's '67 Mustang as the test bed. It got a 427 TP engine when only a few months old, with components sourced from the LeMans GT 40 program. We received a surplus-to-requirements upper end that included a pair of heads, a dual-plane manifold, and a pair of well-tuned 652 mechanical-secondary Holley carbs designed for the combination.

Prior to the foray into EFI-land, we'd tried about as many pairs of different configuration Holleys on that car as possible. The ultimate arrangement of EFI throttle-bodies we tested and reported on was enough better in so many ways as to persuade me that the age of carburetion was past. How long has it been since a car came from a factory with a carb? Please see my opening statement.

KS