Author Topic: 351 C valve seat and diameter question  (Read 2186 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

hotrodford

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 29
    • View Profile
351 C valve seat and diameter question
« on: February 04, 2024, 08:33:34 PM »
Working with a set of 351C 4V closed chamber heads for my vintage road race car.  The intake seat has/is a "venturi ring".  The 60 degree cut just barely catches the seat.  The throat diameter at the ring is 2.05 and narrows to 1.85" as approaching the turn.

As a"mid pack racer" am I just as well off to stay with a 2.19 valve and preserve the "venturi ring" or go to a 2.25" valve and do a 30-45-60-75 to a 1.9" throat"?

The exhaust has a ring also but I can do 30-45-60-75 to blend into the port and eliminate the ring without going to a larger valve. Good idea or bad idea?


Joe-JDC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1490
  • Truth stands on its own merit.
    • View Profile
Re: 351 C valve seat and diameter question
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2024, 09:40:54 PM »
1.900 throat is a bit small, 89% would be 1.940, 90% would be 1.971, 91% would be 1.993".  If those seats were cut properly you should be able to work with that.  Going to a larger valve there would get you some shrouding of the chamber and cylinder wall and lose flow.  If you need to buy new valves anyway, try to get 2.200" or 2.225" to help with unshrouding and gain your multi-angle valve job.  Looking at the picture, it looks like someone cut your venturi out directly under the seat.  Hopefully you can make it work.  Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

hotrodford

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 29
    • View Profile
Re: 351 C valve seat and diameter question
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2024, 10:59:50 PM »
Thanks Joe,
This might be a better picture.
The venturi rings are intact and the seats are untouched (from the factory) other than the one I lightly touched with a 30 and 60 just to highlight it. The 45 has the dye on it.  The 60 is narrow and ends at the inside edge of the venturi ring.  That inside edge of the venturi ring is 2.05".  Right above that 2.05 diameter the venturi widens out a little before coming back in to 1.85" before the turn.  I didn't know which was the better way to go.  I didn't know if it was better to stay with the 2.19 valve and preserve the venturi, by using a light touch on the 60 or to go ahead and go to a larger valve to get more modern type of "radius". 

Dennis   

machoneman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3853
    • View Profile
Re: 351 C valve seat and diameter question
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2024, 07:00:48 AM »
Vintage road race you say. Typically, a larger valve may work to cut low end torque if not hp. Depending on the tracks you run at, if they do not have tight, slow corners where low end power is king, then the larger valve would not hurt cornering power.

Btw, tell us about the car and post some pics. We really don't often get road race engine questions here.
Bob Maag

pbf777

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 490
    • View Profile
Re: 351 C valve seat and diameter question
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2024, 11:48:54 AM »
       With the 351C "Big-Port" 4V cylinder heads it is the modifications of the area below the seat and particularly the short-turn radius that will provide the greatest effect for the effort but forth; you can in all but the case of the greatest efforts pretty much ignore the rest of the port.  Simply stated, all of your efforts would be to aid in the reduction of interference in the process of the atmosphere traversing through the passage, the inlet port runners though arguably are not the most efficient are of substantial area, and since the actual seating surfaces between the opening and closing flow control valving imparts the greatest restriction, the closer to this that efforts are extended the greater the gains. 

       Specifically, the O.E.M.'s 90-degree cut below the 45-degree seating angle (note that the original O.E.M. machining did not incorporate a 60-degree angle) creates too great of a change of direction within in the distance, this causing the laminar flow in close proximity to these surfaces to be lost, this first increasing the boundary layer and then inducing turbulence, thus an effective reduction in functional area, particularly at the higher velocity rates.  Therefore generally it is accepted that in these instances, a larger valve head diameter will provide one the opportunity to correct this. 

       But then yes, in the case of the 351C 4V heads (those w/ 2.19" valves), they already present generous dimension, thus creating other possible concerns, so some conservatism is generally needed here as compared to that of for example the typical in-line valve head examples. Therefore, as stated by another, if your needing to purchase valves anyway, and if the job were in our shop, I would advise bumping the diameter up a bit; just that which would prove necessary to provide the area required for a better resultant effect from the valve job, particularly if bowl porting/blending is not to be incorporated in the effort, but this sum specifically would need to be established by the one executing the work on those castings.

        And while on the topic of attempting to better the flow in the port, and with the thought of "transitions" and their possible negative effects, note that the greatest offender on that port tract is the 'short-turn' radius, which actually suffers from even qualifying as such, rather there is presented an absolute 'shear', which presents the worst possible effect on attempting to avoid inducing a turbulent result; so if porting is permitted, effort here will aid tremendously even if one doesn't do much of anything else in the way of porting.

        Scott.


 

       

hotrodford

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 29
    • View Profile
Re: 351 C valve seat and diameter question
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2024, 09:18:29 PM »
Thank you for the replies. 

The car is a 69 M code with a D1ZE B302 block and heads (no mods to the heads).  This is my first and only race car build.  I estimated 4 years to build and it took 9 years (curse of being a teenager in the 60's kept me going on it)!!  It is a vintage correct car built to the 1969 GCR. 

This will be my 6th year racing it and I got my first 3rd place finish this past October at HMP Topeka with HVR (Heartland Vintage Racing).  To be fair though, in that race, three of the fastest cars were sidelined. Myself and the 4th place car had a great 15 minute battle for third.  There are no prizes or money, it is just for the fun of it.  I also take the car to the Mid America Ford Meet and run the Vintage race at Hallett. This year is the 50th, by the way, should be a great event!!

With 5 years of seat time, gaining some "tire pressure and shock adjustment" knowledge and getting 75 lbs off the car, and with the club now allowing roller cams (I have a solid flat tappet), I think I can take advantage of the improvements a roller cam and a bit of headwork might provide.  I am also considering one of the smaller diameter clutches (would save another 20 lbs or so) and merge collectors.  It is a "work in progress". 

Link attached is short video of the cars at Topeka this past October.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFCDF8Irk3

cammerfe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1659
    • View Profile
Re: 351 C valve seat and diameter question
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2024, 10:56:04 PM »
Vid shows as 'not available'.

KS

frnkeore

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1135
    • View Profile
Re: 351 C valve seat and diameter question
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2024, 03:25:08 AM »
A very nice car! Parnelli would be proud of you :)
Frank

hotrodford

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 29
    • View Profile
Re: 351 C valve seat and diameter question
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2024, 08:31:20 AM »

Gregwill16

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 468
    • View Profile
Re: 351 C valve seat and diameter question
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2024, 08:43:53 AM »
Glad to the Mustangs are well represented. Your car looks great!

MeanGene

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 450
    • View Profile
Re: 351 C valve seat and diameter question
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2024, 11:05:55 AM »
I went thru the engine in my buddy's 1970 Boss302 in '79, and changed a few things. Dykes rings with spacers (old Stock class trick) that Cantrell had laying around, got rid of the tunnel ram with 600's that he had on it and put the original intake back with a 750. Heads were done at Hannan's in Oakland, and a (then) road racer's trick, installed tulip-shaped 426 Hemi valves with 5/16 stems, according to Cantrell someone had tried it to tame the big Boss ports with the tulip shape, and it worked. I know in this case it did, the car was much faster and more driveable, with a smaller ("Sullivan") cam which also works well in a B2. The car was driven on the street with 2.75 gears for 20 years with no driveability problems, was very responsive and sounded great

Falcon67

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2159
    • View Profile
    • Kelly's Hot Rod Page
Re: 351 C valve seat and diameter question
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2024, 12:23:45 PM »
I'm a drag racer and not sure what your rules are, but I grind all that under the seat smooth for transition into the port and narrow the guide. I would not put in a larger valve, in fact it's a decent supposition that the 73/74 4V heads with a 2.08 valve might make better torque.  Speculation, but less shrouding and possibly more velocity.  I know for sure putting a 2.19 in a 2.08 2V head is a partial fail due to the 2V port configuration.

If you really want to wake it up and the rules allow, you'd want to fill the port with some port tongues (Terry Parker, et al from AUS) and partially fill the intake to transition to the reduced port entrance.  They reduce the port volume from around 260cc into the 220cc range, more or less

These are for a web site I did for Terry in relation to his Funnelweb intakes, but you get the idea.




Joe-JDC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1490
  • Truth stands on its own merit.
    • View Profile
Re: 351 C valve seat and diameter question
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2024, 05:17:59 PM »
I have a pair of '69 Boss 302 heads that have a 2.250" intake valve seat.  It is doable, but not the best for a small cubic inch engine.  Since you use an 8.2 deck, what intake manifold are you using?  Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

MeanGene

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 450
    • View Profile
Re: 351 C valve seat and diameter question
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2024, 06:23:41 PM »
I have a pair of '69 Boss 302 heads that have a 2.250" intake valve seat.  It is doable, but not the best for a small cubic inch engine.  Since you use an 8.2 deck, what intake manifold are you using?  Joe-JDC

Ford must have agreed with you, they reduced them to 2.19 for the 70's

Joe-JDC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1490
  • Truth stands on its own merit.
    • View Profile
Re: 351 C valve seat and diameter question
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2024, 09:20:13 PM »
Yes, the '69 Boss 302 had 2.230" intake valves which was proven to be too big for the cubic inches.  My heads had a bad valve job, and had to go to the 2.250" valve to get some of the angles back.  Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500