Cam recommendations after a bad experience.

[ryank]

Hello, my name is Ryan I am a new member from Rimrock, AZ. I have a 1972 F250 with the 390 FE. The motor is fairly fresh, roughly 30k miles on it, stock internals, edelbrock performer 390 intake, edelbrock 1406 carb, headers, pertronix ignition. This is not a show truck or race truck by any means, just occasional daily driver, dump runs, work horse. The 390 was built with a fairly aggressive cam. I do not know the exact specs on it, but the idle was very rough / shakey, vacuum readings were pretty low around 12 psi. I personally could not stand the rough idle and went ahead and got a stock grind cam and set of lifters from what I believed to be a fairly reputable name in the camshaft industry. I figured with a well known brand, stock grind, and proper break in there was no chance I would have an issue. Low and behold the camshaft and lifters began failing in just 50 miles. I believe I caught the issue before any further damage could be done.

I am now in the market for a new camshaft and lifters but am unsure where to look. I am also open to cam spec suggestions, I just went with a stock grind because I figured it was a safe choice. My main concern is just having a smooth stock-like idle and strong vacuum. The truck is geared low enough and has a 4 speed so I am not too concerned with trying to make any extra torque. I considered going the direction of a roller cam but my budget seems to get eaten up fairly quick.

Thanks in advance

[Urgefor]

I figured with a well known brand, stock grind, and proper break in there was no chance I would have an issue.

Usually this type of thing happens when springs with too much pressure are installed during break in.  If the springs apply to much pressure and the lifters can't rotate and "mate" to the lobes during break in, the life of the lobes and lifters will be very short.  How exactly was break in for the new camshaft accomplished?

[ryank]

The springs are the same valve springs the motor was born with. Never been changed. Break in / assembly lube supplied by the cam manufacturer was coated over every lobe and lifter. Fresh oil change with manufacturer supplied zddp additive. Engine fired immediately and held at 2500 for about 15-20 minutes. Was then told to drive it as varying speed / RPM for the next 500 miles and then change oil again. Break in went smooth everything was running great initially. Morning of the failure it did seem to be running ever so slightly rough but not bad enough to cause concern. 8 mile drive to work all seemed well. 8 miles home and halfway the engine started a slight knock / tap sound. Drove it easy rest of the way and the knock progressively got louder and eventually the engine was misfiring. Opened everything back up and very obvious damage occurred between the cam and every lifter. 1 of them being extreme damage and 3 of them being significant damage rest showing some heavy wear. When I pulled it all back apart I calculated the cam had roughly 40-45 actual driving miles on it. Manufacturer initially said my cam "serial number" was part of a known bad batch. Then when it came to getting my money back the story changed and they believe I didn't use proper break in lube / oil despite my receipt showing I paid extra for their recommended lube / additive. 14 days later and I still do not have any sort of refund. Trying not to say any names and start any sort of debates but arguably one of, in not the largest cam manufacturer out there. I then did some research and found this to be a not so uncommon occurrence with this company in the last few years or so. I followed their instructions word for word.

[Urgefor]

Could always work with Brent at Lykins motorsports.  Rumor has it that he knows a thing or two about camshafts and camshaft selection.     https://customfordcams.com/products

[blykins]

What are your spring loads?

A cam that's broken in will handle more spring load than a cam that's not broken in. 

When I supply flat tappet cams, I always insure that the customer knows to break the cam in with less than 300 lbs open spring load.  Then after break-in, the springs are changed to what the cam needs for proper driveability and performance. 

[Tunnelwedge]

Do you still have the old cam and lifters? There are ways of taming a cam.

[jayb]

Ryan, welcome to the forum and sorry to hear about the trouble.  If your engine ran fairly rough with the original cam, it could be that it was a fairly aggressive cam and required a spring load that is too high for proper break in of the new cam and lifters.  Can you give us some details on what your springs look like?  For example, are there two round coils in each spring, or one round coil and one flat coil, or something like that?

Best way is to take one of the springs off and have it checked at a machine shop to see what pressure it provides.  It is not hard to remove springs while the heads are on the engine, just a little tedious.  It does require a spring compressor tool for on-engine work, and after removing the spring you will have to reinstall the retainer and keepers, and measure the installed height of the spring.  The shop will use that to measure the pressure at the installed height.

The problem also could be as simple as you got a bad set of lifters that weren't heat treated properly, seen that before.  Beware of ebay specials.  You can also get a set of cam and lifters that have been previously broken in; Oregon Cam Grinding comes to mind; I think they offer that service.

In any case, whoever you used the first time for the cam and lifters, try someone else.  There have been big changes in ownership of the large aftermarket manufacturing companies that supply cams, lifters, and everything else related to high performance, and it is no longer guaranteed that these companies will provide a good quality product.  Good luck on the repair!

[Rory428]

Like Jay said , be interesting to know more about the valve springs. Saying the valve springs were the "springs the engine was born with" makes me wonder if you mean the original 1972 issue original springs, which I doubt, especially since you were talking about the engine having an aggressive idle and low vacuum. Highly unlikely anybody would have installed such a cam with old, factory valve springs. If they used a valve spring package, more in keeping with such a cam, they would most likely be far too stiff for a stock type cam. I am assuming that when you installed the new "stock type cam", that you did not change or test the springs that were on the engine?  I have broken in several flat tappet cams in recent years, without issue, personally, I don`t like the bright colored assembly lubes, I always use the old school Molybdenum Sulfite cam lube, that Crane used to supply with their cams, and sold separately in tubs, I believe that Isky also sells it. I also don`t use regular oil with a "Zinc additive", I use oil that has adequate ZDDP levels blended into the oil, I use the Brad Penn break in oil, and then regular Brad Penn 10/30 after break in. With milder street type cams, I use a set of well used factory valve springs from an old core 360 or similar, with maybe 80 pounds of seat pressure, as long as they have enough spring spacing for the lift of the new cam. Since the break in is usually 2500 RPM or less, don`t need much spring pressure for that. Also of importance, is priming the oiling system just before initial fire up, and ensuring the engine will fire up instantly . That means carb filled with gas, distributor accurately "static timed", cooling system filled and bled, so the engine starts up right away, and can be kept running for the duration of the break in period. Also, if using hydraulic lifters, DO NOT soak them in oil! It is messy, unnecessary, and the oily surface prevents the assembly lube from clinging to the bottom of the lifters. I am not aware of any cam company that recommends soaking lifters. If the distributor is not in right, and backfiring, or not running properly, all you are doing is wiping the assembly lube off the cam and lifters by cranking the engine over and over. And disconnecting the ignition and cranking the engine over, waiting for oil pressure to build, is NOT the correct way to prime the oil system, for the same reasons. Also not a fan of having a fresh engine with a flat tappet cam built, and then sitting around for months (or years) before firing up and breaking in the cam and lifters. If the engine is not expected to be used for quite a while, I would either perform the break in procedure on an engine dyno, prior to letting it sit around, or re-apply new cam lube on the lifter bottoms, and prime the oil system shortly before initial fire up. That assembly lube will typically not stay on for months of sitting around.

[ryank]

Thank you for all of the replies. The previous owner told me the springs were never changed, and I do believe him as the springs seem to have old orange paint that is very faded / chipped away which I have seen those same springs on a few stock old FEs in the past. Who knows maybe somewhere down the line they were changed / painted / etc. Either way I am now in the market for a new kit, prefer something that comes with new valve springs and lifters.

I was looking at the Melling SYB-23 stock grind bit I also have a close friend recommending the Crower 16915. I am just concerned the Crower cam will have me back in the same spot with rough idle / low vacuum.

[ryank]

Another thing that points me towards believing the valve springs were original is the motor would get valve float pretty badly around 4,000 RPM. I am not a hot rodder and rarely shift over 3,000 anyways so I never noticed in day to day driving but I assumed it was due to the aggressive cam with the stock springs and a stock cam would solve that issue. But now that I am this invested time and money wise I figure I may as well go all the way and get a set of springs to match whatever cam I go with.

The previous owner didn't make the best decisions when modifying this truck. To put it in prospective he removed all the original chrome trim from the truck, threw it away, and bead welded all the trim holes and left it as it because it "looked cooler". So I wouldn't be shocked if he put a massive cam with stock valve springs. I also did not build this motor myself though so I cannot say 100% one way or another. Regardless I am in the market for springs that pair with which ever camshaft I end up picking.

[DuckRyder]

That Crower is a pretty mild cam, should be close to stock like idle on a 390 (are we sure it's a 390?) Stock truck internals or car internals?

Do the exhaust valves have rotators installed?

It would be nice to try to identify the old cam, do you still have it and does it have any markings on it.

[e philpott]

Did your lifters come in a white box ? Out of curiosity