Ideal temps and fan setpoints?

[Falcon67]

I run my race cars at 180.  Including the dragster on methanol, I stage at no less than 180. Less wear and tear IMHO.  Even more important in a street engine to run on the warm side.  Remember that hot water cools an engine better than cold water.  Especially with an aluminum radiator - they work better with more Delta T between the coolant and the air passing over it.  And also - electric fans need pass-by venting at speed.  Otherwise when running they will act about the same as a 16" piece of cardboard in front of the radiator.  Also, it's kinda hard to keep a race car around 160 here when in summer the pit surfaces are running 130F plus.

[CV355]

We got in about 50 miles in 92f heat (felt hotter, sun was direct and there was an "air quality" issue in effect) on Saturday with about 20 miles of stop and go traffic.  Fans kicked on and stayed on the entire time, temps slowly crept up to 207/208 and never really got any hotter.  I suppose the thermostat becomes somewhat of a moot point.  It was definitely a stress test for driver and car since I have no AC.  The car actually did better in the stop and go traffic than the highway.  I guess all the extra airflow at 60mph doesn't make up for the fact it's running 2800rpms vs fan flow and 1200rpms around town.  Wouldn't have been my guess but that's how it went.

On an 80f day, the temps hover at 185. 

The only potential issue I ran into was that with both fans running, hot idle, voltage drops to around 12.3-12.5v and the Holley EFI system throws a yellow "caution" but not full warning.  13.6-14.4v at idle/cruising otherwise.  100amp March alternator.  I might have to look into a 130-140.  This is also without the headlamps on, but I'm about to run an LED conversion so the draw will only be 2.2 amps.

[CV355]

I saw you had a little trouble with your wiring..... I just used one of these MSD solid state relay deals on my Galaxie and it worked out great so I figured I'd share.

holley.com/products/electrical/wiring_and_relays/parts/75643

Being that you have a Sniper, you can wire the fan wires straight to the ground input side of this relay module.

On my galaxie I used this for fuel pump, gauge lighting, and overdrive. Have one spare terminal now I'm thinking about using for an electric fan.

That's clean!  I wound up using two typical waterproof relays and hid them down behind the passenger headlamp.  The problem I ran into was that two factory crimps were not sufficient, so I remade the subharness.  I was looking at the Spal inverter kit for soft start but it was pricey.

[CV355]

I run my race cars at 180.  Including the dragster on methanol, I stage at no less than 180. Less wear and tear IMHO.  Even more important in a street engine to run on the warm side.  Remember that hot water cools an engine better than cold water.  Especially with an aluminum radiator - they work better with more Delta T between the coolant and the air passing over it.  And also - electric fans need pass-by venting at speed.  Otherwise when running they will act about the same as a 16" piece of cardboard in front of the radiator.  Also, it's kinda hard to keep a race car around 160 here when in summer the pit surfaces are running 130F plus.

https://www.northernradiator.com/HIGH_PERFORMANCE/SEARCH_BY_VEHICLE/FORD/MUSTANG/1969/Z40121

Here's the shroud and fan combo I am running.  This is as large as I can go for fans.  The fan housing is 1/8" from the blower belt right now and there's absolutely no room to go without modifying sheet metal or shimming the motor mounts back (also risky, headers are in a sweet spot with the steering linkages).   

I understand what you are saying about the pass-by venting.  There are some formed vents in there, but do you think that's enough?  I thought about adding a chin spoiler to help direct some air flow upward but to your point it's just hitting a solid face in a way.

Sorry for all of the stacked replies, the edit button isn't working for me for some reason.

[Falcon67]

OEM LT1 Camaro, mid 90s IIRC.  31x19 Summit dual 1" core aluminum.  Will fit Fairlane, not a Mustang.

[CV355]

OEM LT1 Camaro, mid 90s IIRC.  31x19 Summit dual 1" core aluminum.  Will fit Fairlane, not a Mustang.

I can't get a fan that deep in my engine bay.  I am trying some VP Madditive to see if that drops temps a few degrees.  It's just the 90f days where it seems to be an issue.  I drove it around in 80f weather two weekends ago and it never got above 185. 

[randomologist]

A little late to the thread here, but I run a 180* thermostat as I drive my car in the fall and spring quite a bit and here in Minnesota, that means I need heat. My fan controller doesn't independently control 1 fan at a time, both fans come on or neither comes on, but a resistor controls high/low in the fan assembly.

I have low speed set to start 190*, auto shutoff just over 180* so the thermostat is trying to control the engine temperature rather than the fans.
I have high speed set to come on at 200*, decreases to low at 190*

160* thermostats struggle to provide enough heat on the freeway with my Vintage Air Gen IV setup below 50* outside in my experience with the Vintage Air Gen IV conversion I have in my 69 Mustang. I also haven't noticed an advantage for the 160* vs. a 180* thermostat for street driving using my stock 427 FE. Once the thermostat is fully opened, it's all up to the radiator and fans. If the radiator and fans aren't up to the task, the temp will rise and the amount of added red light time I have between 160* and 180* is all of about 2 stoplights. Once that happens, the two thermostats are identical in traffic. The 180* thermostat is superior at cooling when I come off the freeway, though because the thermostat doesn't have to cycle as much so the coolant in the radiator is colder and more efficient at shedding engine heat.

[Dr Mabuse]

I always keep a closed system, by using a coolant recovery tank, and matching coolant recovery radiator cap.

Engine operating temperature is closely related to cylinder wall wear (among other variables):

[cammerfe]

Experience with my '63 ICB Effie/390 PI. I used a factory radiator with a large top tank but the radiator itself was only two tubes thick. When I got the truck, the '64 390 PI was already installed. the fan was a plastic flex unit and was spaced back from the rad in such a way that it undoubtedly did nothing. (There was no shroud.)

I had some experience with overheating while driving in traffic within the Detroit city limits and dumped the plastic fan for an electric item that I believe I bought at Gratiot. It was unitized such that the blades were formed with circular self-shrouding as part of the design. When I installed it, I used the mounting arrangement that passed posts through the core and held the entirety within a quarter inch or so of the back side of the rad fins. There were built-in anti-vibration pads also incorporated. Part of the package was a temp probe that was to be installed in contact with the tank and triggered the on-off switch. I was time-limited and had a convenient hole in the dash apron so I put in a simple toggle switch instead, to be used until I could do a completion. I discovered, however, that since I had a direct-read mechanical gauge and could therefore monitor the possibility of high temp, I never bothered to put in the probe. We don't get much higher temps than low nineties here in southeastern Michigan, and unless I was stuck in traffic, the engine never got much over 190. I'd simply flip the toggle and within several seconds the temp would be back in the 180s.

Problem solved.

KS

[cleandan]

We got in about 50 miles in 92f heat (felt hotter, sun was direct and there was an "air quality" issue in effect) on Saturday with about 20 miles of stop and go traffic.  Fans kicked on and stayed on the entire time, temps slowly crept up to 207/208 and never really got any hotter.  I suppose the thermostat becomes somewhat of a moot point.  It was definitely a stress test for driver and car since I have no AC.  The car actually did better in the stop and go traffic than the highway.  I guess all the extra airflow at 60mph doesn't make up for the fact it's running 2800rpms vs fan flow and 1200rpms around town.  Wouldn't have been my guess but that's how it went.

On an 80f day, the temps hover at 185. 

The only potential issue I ran into was that with both fans running, hot idle, voltage drops to around 12.3-12.5v and the Holley EFI system throws a yellow "caution" but not full warning.  13.6-14.4v at idle/cruising otherwise.  100amp March alternator.  I might have to look into a 130-140.  This is also without the headlamps on, but I'm about to run an LED conversion so the draw will only be 2.2 amps.

This suggests your cooling system is able to control the temps the engine is producing....which is exactly what you want.
Running temps in the 210* range are perfectly safe and nothing to worry about specifically because it got to that temp, but was controlled, rather than slowly creeping higher and higher.

Look into maximizing airflow through the radiator to increase cooling even more.
If there are air passages allowing incoming air to pass around the radiator try to block those to force the air through the radiator.
Also look into helping hot, under hood, air from being trapped under hood. If you can get it to flow out, even just a bit, it will help greatly with overall temp control.

The voltage drop is not a function of alternator amp capacity, unless of course you literally are drawing more amps than your current alternator can produce.
Look into all your electrical amp draws and add them up to figure out what is required from your alternator.

This voltage drop may be a function of a voltage regulator needing some adjustment rather than an incompatible alternator output.

[TurboChris]

This suggests your cooling system is able to control the temps the engine is producing....which is exactly what you want.
Running temps in the 210* range are perfectly safe and nothing to worry about specifically because it got to that temp, but was controlled, rather than slowly creeping higher and higher.

Does this statement apply to Aluminum block / head FE's as well? Mine tends to run to about 210 on the freeway on a 80 degree day. I was assuming that was higher than it should be and with summer coming I was planning to upgrade to a better radiator and electric fans. Wouldn't be a bad thing if I didn't have to. 

Anyone tried this controller? My brother swears by it. It's a nice set up. Soft start, PWM, etc.

https://www.autocoolguy.com/

[Falcon67]

OEM LT1 Camaro, mid 90s IIRC.  31x19 Summit dual 1" core aluminum.  Will fit Fairlane, not a Mustang.

I can't get a fan that deep in my engine bay.  I am trying some VP Madditive to see if that drops temps a few degrees.  It's just the 90f days where it seems to be an issue.  I drove it around in 80f weather two weekends ago and it never got above 185.

Yes, that is an issue for Mustangs with the lower hood profile.  Basically, I found that when I used the car as a street/strip car that it was easier to control the temp with a 195 thermostat.  Trying 160, and in the summer here even 185, it was difficult to keep a hot street car with 450+HP from creeping temp in traffic.  It's nothing here in summer to have road surfaces run 130+.  It was 112F on the back porch here Monday and San Angelo set an all-time record temp of 114F yesterday.  The basic issues are having enough radiator surface area and moving enough air across the core.  Aluminum seems to like hotter temps - more Delta T - between the core and ambient air.  The cores in aluminum radiators are larger with more surface area - usually 1", dual core - than copper, and the fins are less dense to allow more air to cross the core.  The issue with a thick copper core and dense fin count is getting air though the thing.  I found that out the hard way with a $$$ custom copper unit years ago in Houston.  I required a deep flute Flex-a-lite "salad slicer" 18" engine driven fan with a shroud to pull enough air though the thing to control engine temp.

I once had a Griffin cooling system engineer tell me the "simple" thing to remember - hot water = cool engine. 

[Urgefor]

Anyone tried this controller? My brother swears by it. It's a nice set up. Soft start, PWM, etc.

https://www.autocoolguy.com/

I haven't used that controller, but I can say I am happy with the PAC-2800BT from Dakota Digital to control the 2005-2014 Mustang performance cooling fan (M8C607MSVT) from Ford.  With minor modifications, the fan was a perfect fit for the stock copper radiator in my '66 Galaxie.  I'm not huge on apps for this and that, but being able to connect to the controller using my phone in 5 seconds or less for configuration, etc., is pretty handy.  Made adjusting fan setpoints a joy since I could work with those while driving around town (as a passenger of course  ).

For anyone still using the OE copper radiator in their FE powered mid '60s full sized car, I added some pics of the Ford fan mentioned above with the radiator out of the car.  Hard to get a good understanding of how well it fit the radiator and the fairly shallow depth of the fan while it is installed in the car.

 

[TurboChris]

While the bluetooth aspect sounds cool. The dakota digital is a two speed controller. The cool thing about the PWM (Pulse With Modulation) controllers is they are variable from 10% to 100%. And Soft start so no giant draw when they start up.  So you only get the exact amount cfm you need to keep it at the preset temps. I think that tech is the some of the "latest greatest"

[/quote]


I haven't used that controller, but I can say I am happy with the PAC-2800BT from Dakota Digital to control the 2005-2014 Mustang performance cooling fan (M8C607MSVT) from Ford.  With minor modifications, the fan was a perfect fit for the stock copper radiator in my '66 Galaxie.  I'm not huge on apps for this and that, but being able to connect to the controller using my phone in 5 seconds or less for configuration, etc., is pretty handy.  Made adjusting fan setpoints a joy since I could work with those while driving around town (as a passenger of course  ).
[/quote]

[Nightmist66]

Anyone tried this controller? My brother swears by it. It's a nice set up. Soft start, PWM, etc.

https://www.autocoolguy.com/

I have the NB-100 in my car. I mounted it in the passenger fender behind the headlights to keep it hidden. I really like it. Soft start, only runs the fans as fast as needed to keep a set temperature, runs for up to 1 minute after shut-off to help cool down, turn the knob to set temp where you want it, and the bypass feature so you can cool down before a run or etc.