Borla / Ingelese 8 Stack?

[TurboChris]

Ok I searched and it appears it's been years since this was discussed and there have been updates on these systems as technology progress's. My current hoop-tee is a 66 Fairlane with a pond aluminum 427 with edelbrock heads, dove tunnel wedge, dual 600's, C6. It's an 6 year old build with about 4000 miles. I just got it a month or two ago and am in the process of sorting it out and making a list of what I want / it needs.

It currently runs "Ok", it dyno'd, when built at 500 hp but def not as crisp and responsive as I'd like and rough calculations show about 8 mpg.  So I was thinking about the holly dual quad terminator efi system. I have a trusted tuner with a dyno locally and he is well versed with it. I thought it might be a good fit for my car. In speaking to him, he was adamant about a couple of things.

1) Stay AWAY from FiTech. I believe this as I've seen some good and def some poor reviews.

2) Holley Terminator all the way. He likes it a lot and states the Holley dual quad set up will be great.

3) To not consider any 8 stack system. He stated they were too much work to make work right and I wouldn't be happy with the low end performance / street manners.

But of course, I can't stop wanting the 8 stack system. I read on the cobra forums and even here that plenty of people have installed / set up ITB systems and are very happy with them. But I don't really find much in the last 5 years or so, not since Holley came out with the terminator for sure. 

So, here we go. Who has experience with a quality set up like a Borla or an Ingelese 8 stack? I see ingelese uses the Holley terminator now. How are low speed manners and general street ability? Loose much torque down low? Any issues with vacuum? (I see they now have plenum's built in for vacuum so I'm ASSuming that's not an issue and more cam dependent)
Speaking of cams I have a lunati. Here's the specs, hoping I can keep it as I don't know if I'm willing to go through the effort and expense of swapping cams.



Thanks in advance

[My427stang]

I have built a 550 horse 462 with a Borla and a terminator X. Horsepower was on par, but torque was down, probably due to the shorter runners. We had lots of problems with the Terminator X wiring harness, but once we figured it out, it was very easy to tune, and ran strong other than a bit of a loss of torque

The only thing I did not like about it is, there is a lot of pressure required to run the bell crank for the eight stack. Enough that we had to reconfigure and strengthen the dyno throttle arm.

I never got to actually drive the vehicle, but again after we chased some significant wiring issues that drove us nuts, which is not really the system or the injectors fault, it ran and tuned pretty easy.

It is a very expensive endeavor, though, and be sure to get a dual sync distributor if you do it. I would say though, if you are really looking for higher power peaks, you should drive toward more modern heads while you do it

If you dig through the dyno section, the engine is there, I will be back to the computer later on tonight answering from my cell phone now, but would be happy to talk to you about what I saw

[jayb]

I don't know anything about the Borla setup, but in general I love Individual Runner (IR) intakes.  It baffles me that Ross has not seen good torque with the Borla, because my experience has been the exact opposite, where a good IR intake will always come out on top in torque production.  When I wrote my book and tested the Weber setup on my 500 HP 390 stroker, it slaughtered every other manifold in torque.  Same thing with the IR intake I built for my cylinder head package; at 765 foot pounds out of a 511" engine, it made HUGE peak torque.  The tunnel ram was right there with it, but for a manifold that fits under the hood, the IR intake is pretty tough to beat.

At Drag Week in 2009 I ran a Hilborn setup converted to EFI in my 64 Galaxie.  That engine idled at 750 RPM and made 900+ HP, and at 3935 pounds ran 9.50s at 140-143 MPH.  It was beautifully streetable, and picked the front wheels a foot off the ground at the track, if I wasn't careful with it.

Any EFI system should work fine for an IR setup.  I have used FAST and Amp EFI's system with good results, but no reason the Holley setup couldn't work too.

Throttle response from an IR intake is also outstanding, better than any carbed intake in my experience. 

There are downsides, though.  The power output of an IR setup is very peaky; see the graph below showing the IR setup for my cylinder heads plotted with the tunnel ram.  Talk about a roller coaster!  And Ross is right on point with the linkage issues.  Getting all 8 throttle plates synchronized can be an issue; I used to use the old trick of setting the throttle stops so that a strip of newspaper would just barely slide out between the butterflies and the throttle bores.  Much more than that and your idle will go way, way up.  Also, it takes a lot of spring to close 8 butterflies, so your linkage needs to be up to snuff.  One linkage trick is to arrange the bellcranks so that the first 1/3 of pedal travel only opens the butterflies a little bit.  This makes the engine much easier to control.

Again, I'm not familiar with the Borla setup, but unless it is badly screwed up I think it should act similarly to other IR intakes that I've run.  I think if you go for it, you will love it - Jay

[PaulProe]

I have successfully run two Borla EightStack systems. I don't understand your tuner's comments about low end/street performance. That may hold true for a true Weber 48IDA setup, but not for fuel injection. I found the exact opposite. I transitioned from a Weber carb system to the first EightStack and all my driveability issues went away. That engine was a bored/stroked 390 - 432ci with a mild cam. The Borla system gave it a new life making it a very enjoyable engine in my cobra replica

I built a second car and in it put a Shelby Aluminum FE with TrickFlow heads and the Borla EightStack again. The car idles at 800-850 rpm, pulled 575 on the  dyno and last week, on a 500 mile cruise, produced 17.7mpg.  I have had my best luck using a Performance Electronics ECU. I've worked on multiple other systems and found the FAST products left a lot to be desired. Holley has some good items, but their support leaves a lot to be desired.

I've found the setup can be onerous. The linkage has to be exact or you have issues. The air balance has to be done a certain way or you have issues. But once it is all tuned in, it is truly just get in and drive. No tinkering required.

The EightStack is a real eye-catcher. Much more so than four barrel(s). The drawback: $$$  they aren't cheap. I use a rule of thumb when someone asks: plan on $6,000 for the EightStack, $1000 for a fuel system (high pressure and return also), $2500 for ECU, sensors and wiring, $2000 for tuning, $500 for  gaskets, hardware, etc. Bottom line: $12,000

Probably the biggest drawback is they are unforgiving for sloppy workmanship and that doesn't bide well with some 'so-called' mechanics.

My toy:

[My427stang]

The combo was a solid 550/580 combo with an RPM and a 780, this one did 550/550.  So not dead on torque but less, it did have low profile TBs and no stacks above the TB, so maybe would have climbed with some runner length

Maybe there was more in the timing curve, but it met all goals.  I'd like to do another sometime

[blykins]

I built a second car and in it put a Shelby Aluminum FE with TrickFlow heads and the Borla EightStack again.

What size engine on that one?

[My427stang]

Paul/Jay FWIW I used the 58 mm versions, bigger and shorter I believe than the Weber style

[My427stang]

It currently runs "Ok", it dyno'd, when built at 500 hp but def not as crisp and responsive as I'd like and rough calculations show about 8 mpg.  So I was thinking about the holly dual quad terminator efi system. I have a trusted tuner with a dyno locally and he is well versed with it. I thought it might be a good fit for my car. In speaking to him, he was adamant about a couple of things.

Chris if you wanted to make some EFI power with that engine, I'd go with a set of Trick Flows and assuming it has a med riser intake,  then a pair of Holley throttle bodies with a Terminator X controller.   It'd be far cheaper.  That being said if your heart was set on an 8 stack, I'd likely stick a set of Trick Flows on it anyway. 

The cam will support much more power with a good set of heads, although we tend to like the better choices and more lift  in custom rollers, it'd do well.  I'd likely lash it real tight though, especially in an all alum combo.  It really is the Edels holding it back

[TurboChris]

Thanks guys, great info and confirms pretty much what I thought. I suspect I'll stick to the original plan and go with the dual quad Holley Terminator set up. Then I'll consider the TFS heads and maybe a cam upgrade. Ultimately I'd like to see over 600 hp but my list keeps getting longer. lol. First up is EFI and a TKX swap.

[PaulProe]

I built a second car and in it put a Shelby Aluminum FE with TrickFlow heads and the Borla EightStack again.

What size engine on that one?

2nd engine is 4.25 x 4.125   468ci

[GA445]

Just my 2 cents, I had a Jim Inglese on my 445 Fairlane and could not have been more pleased. First and most important Jim Inglese and his whole crew were great to deal with, everything worked as promised right out of the box.

[andyf]

We just finished up a 463 (428 with 4.25 crank) with TFS heads and the Borla/Terminator X setup. It took several days to get the engine running due to problems with the Borla kit. They sent the wrong wiring harness, gave us the wrong info on the injectors, had the throttle bodies and linkage set up wrong, etc. But once we got all of the problems sorted out it ran fine. Made 550 hp and 620 torque with a very mild hyd roller cam. Should be a good street engine. Cost a ton of money. Customer probably has $30K invested in this engine but it what he wanted.

[andyf]

By the way, I do agree with what your tuner told you. Dual throttle bodies with a Terminator X controller would be the most economical way to go. The 8 stack setup is mostly just for looks. The 8 stack is very difficult to get properly synchronized and they never stay adjusted. After a few heat cycles the idle gets ragged and you need to pull out the wrenches and the sync tool and dial it back in again. The throttle body stuff is typically fool proof once you get the tune dialed in. Use a Hyperspark or Dual Sync distributor and you should be good to go.

[Barry_R]

Of the few IR setups I have used, the Borla (formerly TWM) setup has been the best. I have had a couple of them and they seemed to run pretty well.  I had a Hilborn on one engine and it made good power - but was an absolute PITA to set up the linkage on.  While the Borla was infinitely adjustable and held position, you could only adjust them as "pairs".   It seemed like the Hilborn was extremely fussy, and the clamp/set screw shaft attachment easily got buggered up making readjustment harder.  If any of these systems are not perfect from "bore to bore" at any point in throttle travel you can get an occasional "lean pop" in one hole if you are tuning on the edge of things.  They do make a ton of torque as they come in and out of tune with the runner lengths.  Personally I'd rather look at them on other guys cars than own one myself.

[cleandan]

Turbo Chris, I have driven and tuned some of these...here are my thoughts.
You already have replys telling you about throttle response, torque, and other aspects.....with the main driver being "as long as set up properly".

This is important to understand both in tersm of expectations as well as literal mechanical set up work.
The individual runner 8-stacks must be "perfect" to achieve best driveability.
If they are not correct for each cylinder you will have driveability issues such as lean pops when changing throttle position.
Odd blips/hiccups when in cruise mode, and possible backfires when going to WOT or idle quickly.

The older versions, even if called 8-stack systems, were only adjustable in shared throttle shaft pairs.
This meant cylinders (1-2) (3-4) (5-6) (7-8) used one paired set of injectors each.
While this could be tuned to drive around well enough, they were never able to be tuned so well that you could drive around without compromises.

Keep in mind the original 8-stack injector systems were designed to run the engine at idle as you waited to hammer WOT....be it a drag engine or Can-Am style engine.....They were not designed to cruise around town between drive-in's and car shows.

Be certain the system you choose has the ability to literally adjust each single cylinder valve on its own shaft, adjust each valve on the whole throttle linkage system, as well as adjust for air/fuel/idle metering.
This will allow you to better tailor each cylinders needs resulting in a better driving system that is not merely a race only piece.

These also take a different approach to tuning than a carb.
A carb can be set to run pretty well, even if it is not optimised.
The 8-stack needs to be patiently, methodically set up for each individual cylinder to achieve best results.

You may find a whole day used in setting each valve to pull the same vacuum as the other cylinders because a change in one will affect the others, so there is a LOT of repeat steps taken when initial set up is being done.

Last, keep the computer, and software, you use for tuning the electronics, as well as the interconnect cables if there are any.
I have worked on a few of these early electro/mechanical 8-stacks and one of the difficult portions was finding a computer running the right old program and finding the proper interconnect cable to connect the computer to the ECU system in the vehicle.

If you do it right the 8-stack system should last 20+ years without much trouble.
The computer programs and cables we used in the 1990's are not very compatible with today's modern offerings.
If you have the stuff it is easy to hook up and go...and if you don't you are sort of stuck.

These are awesome looking when the hood is opened.
They are good running when set up properly.
They can be a HUGE headache if not.