Author Topic: Steel End Support Stands for C4EA-F Factory Ford High Riser Heads  (Read 3604 times)

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dozz302

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Hello, just wondering if anybody is planning on making a plain steel end support stand for a Ford High Riser head C4EA-F. Something you can just bolt on a stock head. Steel> because there will not be a lot of material on the bottom for support and aluminum wouldn't be strong enough. Surprised nobody makes these yet. Doesn't have to be anything fancy. I'm sure there are plenty of guys with High Riser heads who would buy them. The only alternative is the Dove System which is very nice but too elaborate for a street engine and nobody is going to want to loosen and replace head bolts on a running sealed engine.

dozz302

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Re: Steel End Support Stands for C4EA-F Factory Ford High Riser Heads
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2023, 08:01:29 PM »
Nobody?

blykins

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Re: Steel End Support Stands for C4EA-F Factory Ford High Riser Heads
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2023, 05:55:49 PM »
There are aluminum stands already available and they are plenty strong enough.  If it comes to a point where they’re not, then a paired rocker system should be used in place of standard FE valvetrain.
Brent Lykins
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Rory428

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Re: Steel End Support Stands for C4EA-F Factory Ford High Riser Heads
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2023, 11:51:49 AM »
Could you not take a set of standard height steel stands, and cut them down to the Hi Riser height? As for aluminum not being strong enough, the stress on the rocker stand is upwards, with the bolts taking the brunt of the load. The area below the shaft is just for holding the shaft at the appropriate height, and preventing the stand from moving around.
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dozz302

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Re: Steel End Support Stands for C4EA-F Factory Ford High Riser Heads
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2023, 12:10:23 PM »
Yes Blykins, thank you for the reply, but the aluminum ones (designed for the Low and Medium Riser and Tunnel port) are cut down for use on the High Riser and makes them much weaker. The support area on the bottom is probably more than 1/2 way cut down. That's why I was suggesting someone make a steel version for the High Riser.
But I take it you are saying that the aluminum ones even cut down add a lot of support. It just doesn't look like a lot of material would be left for support.
I am running a .600 solid flat tappet cam with no crazy spring pressures and I have already broken the end rocker off in 500 miles. Just looking for a simple solution. Other than cam motor is stock.
Rory428, end support stands.
Thanks again.

galaxiex

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Re: Steel End Support Stands for C4EA-F Factory Ford High Riser Heads
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2023, 03:10:15 PM »
Sounds like you might need some better thick wall shafts.
Every 20 minute job is 1 broken bolt away from becoming a 3 day ordeal.

blykins

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Re: Steel End Support Stands for C4EA-F Factory Ford High Riser Heads
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2023, 03:51:46 AM »
Yes Blykins, thank you for the reply, but the aluminum ones (designed for the Low and Medium Riser and Tunnel port) are cut down for use on the High Riser and makes them much weaker. The support area on the bottom is probably more than 1/2 way cut down. That's why I was suggesting someone make a steel version for the High Riser.
But I take it you are saying that the aluminum ones even cut down add a lot of support. It just doesn't look like a lot of material would be left for support.
I am running a .600 solid flat tappet cam with no crazy spring pressures and I have already broken the end rocker off in 500 miles. Just looking for a simple solution. Other than cam motor is stock.
Rory428, end support stands.
Thanks again.

Aluminum works just fine on my stuff.  Sounds like some end stands will fix you right up. 
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
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pbf777

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Re: Steel End Support Stands for C4EA-F Factory Ford High Riser Heads
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2023, 11:39:57 AM »
Something you can just bolt on a stock head. Steel> because there will not be a lot of material on the bottom for support and aluminum wouldn't be strong enough.


     I agree here with the O.P. when referencing the typical "bolt-on" type in which the end support is shared with the last standard stands' position's retaining bolt and then bridging under the end rocker arm in order to surround the shafts' end.  With the H.R. cylinder heads there may not be sufficient area between the top of the cylinder head and under the rocker arm, providing clearance for it's movement, leaving adequate cross section to the flat horizontal bridge for it to be effectively functional; this even it were steel without some sort of additional contours in order to provide adequate bending motion resistance.  This issue is compounded by the need for generous area under the rocker arm for the multitude of rocker arm dimensions from the varied sum of makers; so this would need to considered, or perhaps only a selected rocker arm (for example steel generally requires less material volume than aluminum for the same effective capacity), at least in this position (might look a little odd if not matching, but once the valve cover were on such wouldn't be so apparent .  ::)) this in order to make available the most in material possible in this critical area.   :-\

     The 'reach' distance of the horizontal plane from the retaining bolt to the intended supported position is the issue, so particularly in the application of the H.R. head perhaps just adopting the end-stand engineering that incorporates  the cylinder head retention fasteners (special length, perhaps stepped size stud) might truly be best?
 
     But before I ran out to reinvent the proverbial wheel, perhaps as stated previously by another: maybe just a good set of H.D. shafts might be all you really require in this instance?   :-\

    Scott.

   
« Last Edit: April 10, 2023, 11:47:13 AM by pbf777 »

blykins

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Re: Steel End Support Stands for C4EA-F Factory Ford High Riser Heads
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2023, 01:05:59 PM »
Unless I'm misunderstanding the issue, both the POP and the T&D aluminum rocker stands work just fine.  I don't know of any other manufacturers that make them.  In almost any case, however, I would suggest the use of an end stand.  Any FE application will suffer without an end stand, whether it's LR, MR, or HR.

Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

Barry_R

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Re: Steel End Support Stands for C4EA-F Factory Ford High Riser Heads
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2023, 12:15:10 PM »
Harland Sharp - and for a while Blue Thunder - supply/supplied stands in steel.  I'd wager you could cut down a Sharp end stand and have it be very strong

pbf777

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Re: Steel End Support Stands for C4EA-F Factory Ford High Riser Heads
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2023, 10:45:55 AM »
Unless I'm misunderstanding the issue, both the POP and the T&D aluminum rocker stands work just fine.


      Precision Oil Pumps does not make any form of an end support stand for the H.R.; at one time he was attempting engineering that utilized the cylinder head retention bolt but has surrendered further efforts thus far.

      T & D claims to be making a rocker arm/shaft/stand system (components not being interchangeable with anything else) so although it might be a "bolt-on" it's not just a matter of acquiring some end-stands and popping them on.   :)

      The only concern I have with the T & D product, as I have not used this system (Part #7024 for the H.R.), is that as described to me these stands place the shaft center-line at something of about .450" +/- (T & D refrained from providing exact measurements  :( )  higher than the O.E. production units!  ???  So how does one move the rocker arm pivot trunnion up that much, this with as stated by T & D "intended for stock-length valves" and end up with something reasonably correct in geometry?  I have done a few H.R.'s and have not noted in these instances and in my perspective that Ford Motor Co. had mispositioned the shafts that greatly?  With insistent inquiry of T & D, the final statement was "We know what we are doing, with great study we move the fulcrum lengths and trunnion positions until we establish the ideal geometry for each application, after  all we are..................."  And of course the "We've sold hundreds of these (for H.R.'s?  ???) and nobody else complained"! And with greater effort on my part for an understanding of how this was accomplished including perhaps some specific dimensional values of the stands, suggesting perhaps even simply e-mail me an engineering print (many manufactures over the years have done this) so perhaps I could better understand the execution, I was told:  'We don't send out prints anymore"; "to many knock-off efforts encountered"  :-\ , and "we don't just spell-out such values over the phone either"; "because I (T & D) don't have that information in front of me  >:( ". And then: "you just need to have 'faith' in the fact that we know what we're doing" and .............................. "your just way 'over-thinking' this"!   :o

      I don't generally feel that 'leaps-of-faith' should be mixed with practical mechanical engineering discussions.   ::)

      So, as I have not utilized this product (I have used T & D products on other engine applications; and they still sell S.B.C. rockers for the S.B.F. applications even though we have repeatedly explained it 'is less than ideal'  ::) ) has anyone here worked with this T & D system; and is/was it as has been described to me dimensionally; and did it 'work-out'.............O.K.?   ???

      Scott.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2023, 01:27:11 PM by pbf777 »

MeanGene

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Re: Steel End Support Stands for C4EA-F Factory Ford High Riser Heads
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2023, 10:42:12 AM »
If it was me, I wouldn't hand out my engineering either, it would just save the Chinese from having to reverse-engineer the parts  ;D

blykins

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Re: Steel End Support Stands for C4EA-F Factory Ford High Riser Heads
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2023, 10:57:42 AM »
Unless I'm misunderstanding the issue, both the POP and the T&D aluminum rocker stands work just fine.


      Precision Oil Pumps does not make any form of an end support stand for the H.R.; at one time he was attempting engineering that utilized the cylinder head retention bolt but has surrendered further efforts thus far.

      T & D claims to be making a rocker arm/shaft/stand system (components not being interchangeable with anything else) so although it might be a "bolt-on" it's not just a matter of acquiring some end-stands and popping them on.   :)

      The only concern I have with the T & D product, as I have not used this system (Part #7024 for the H.R.), is that as described to me these stands place the shaft center-line at something of about .450" +/- (T & D refrained from providing exact measurements  :( )  higher than the O.E. production units!  ???  So how does one move the rocker arm pivot trunnion up that much, this with as stated by T & D "intended for stock-length valves" and end up with something reasonably correct in geometry?  I have done a few H.R.'s and have not noted in these instances and in my perspective that Ford Motor Co. had mispositioned the shafts that greatly?  With insistent inquiry of T & D, the final statement was "We know what we are doing, with great study we move the fulcrum lengths and trunnion positions until we establish the ideal geometry for each application, after  all we are..................."  And of course the "We've sold hundreds of these (for H.R.'s?  ???) and nobody else complained"! And with greater effort on my part for an understanding of how this was accomplished including perhaps some specific dimensional values of the stands, suggesting perhaps even simply e-mail me an engineering print (many manufactures over the years have done this) so perhaps I could better understand the execution, I was told:  'We don't send out prints anymore"; "to many knock-off efforts encountered"  :-\ , and "we don't just spell-out such values over the phone either"; "because I (T & D) don't have that information in front of me  >:( ". And then: "you just need to have 'faith' in the fact that we know what we're doing" and .............................. "your just way 'over-thinking' this"!   :o

      I don't generally feel that 'leaps-of-faith' should be mixed with practical mechanical engineering discussions.   ::)

      So, as I have not utilized this product (I have used T & D products on other engine applications; and they still sell S.B.C. rockers for the S.B.F. applications even though we have repeatedly explained it 'is less than ideal'  ::) ) has anyone here worked with this T & D system; and is/was it as has been described to me dimensionally; and did it 'work-out'.............O.K.?   ???

      Scott.

Ok, gotcha now.  I knew that POP has the center stands for the high riser, but just wasn't putting 2 & 2 together on the end stands.

I have used the T&D street rockers (single shaft, like a factory FE setup, not paired rockers) for the high riser.  I was pleased with it.  Geometry was good. 
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

Tommy-T

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Re: Steel End Support Stands for C4EA-F Factory Ford High Riser Heads
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2023, 11:33:24 AM »
Yes Blykins, thank you for the reply, but the aluminum ones (designed for the Low and Medium Riser and Tunnel port) are cut down for use on the High Riser and makes them much weaker. The support area on the bottom is probably more than 1/2 way cut down. That's why I was suggesting someone make a steel version for the High Riser.
But I take it you are saying that the aluminum ones even cut down add a lot of support. It just doesn't look like a lot of material would be left for support.
I am running a .600 solid flat tappet cam with no crazy spring pressures and I have already broken the end rocker off in 500 miles. Just looking for a simple solution. Other than cam motor is stock.
Rory428, end support stands.
Thanks again.

Since you say the motor is stock except for the cam, I would venture to say stock rocker shafts are not up to handling a .600 lift solid flat tappet camshaft.
I ran a 454 inch Hi Riser for quite a few years in my Mustang. Street and track raced it as well as put a lot of street miles on it too. It also had a .600 lift cam.
I ran Ford Power Parts rocker shafts, stock Ford rocker arms, double rocker shaft springs, stock Ford stands, and Ford Power Parts rocker studs. I had Isky 8005A valve springs set up at 135lbs. on the seat. I bought Dove roller rocker arms and their end support system and resolved myself to thinking if I ever have a problem with what I have, I'll replace my rockers and stands to the "good stuff".
I never did because I never had a problem.

The Dove Hi Riser end support, if you can find one, is a good set up. It will not damage your engine to pull a couple of head bolts and install it.
I can't honestly say I drove my 12:1 Hi Riser 500 miles though.

pbf777

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Re: Steel End Support Stands for C4EA-F Factory Ford High Riser Heads
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2023, 02:27:46 PM »
I have used the T&D street rockers (single shaft, like a factory FE setup, not paired rockers) for the high riser.  I was pleased with it.  Geometry was good.


      Did you receive product that as I explained would position the shaft center-line .450" +/- higher than the O.E.M. H.R. stands?  Now this discussion is of the 'High-Riser" head only, not other 390-428 applications with which the dimensions spoken to me would be more reasonable for.   :-\

     Somehow, as clear in the communication as I attempted to be, I don't think the product dimensions I received were for the H.R.; this even though  T & D determinedly stated so?   :-\

     But then, when your as dense as I am, usually it takes a good wallop to the back of the head to make me understand!  ::)

     Scott.