Author Topic: Rod bearing clearance how tight is to tight  (Read 3273 times)

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BigBlueIron

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Rod bearing clearance how tight is to tight
« on: July 13, 2022, 12:48:21 PM »
390 crank turned .010, bearing clearance is coming in at .0015. King CR809AM010 bearings. To tight?? Hot rod/driver pickup. Not a race engine.


blykins

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Re: Rod bearing clearance how tight is to tight
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2022, 02:40:50 PM »
I wouldn't run them that tight.  I'd like to see at least a thou more clearance.   
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
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BigBlueIron

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Re: Rod bearing clearance how tight is to tight
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2022, 04:28:46 PM »
What would you consider the minimum. Crank is being balanced and will need polished again after that, maybe that will make up a few tenths? Otherwise I will have to look for some different bearings. Machinist is fearful of trying to take one thousand off and keep everything straight and round.

1968galaxie

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Re: Rod bearing clearance how tight is to tight
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2022, 05:23:16 PM »
Brent is 100% correct.

You should be able to get King +.001 bearings.
Some use half a set of the +.001" to fine tune clearances.


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blykins

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Re: Rod bearing clearance how tight is to tight
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2022, 05:42:46 PM »
Unfortunately, you won't be able to get +/- .001" bearings for a .010" under crank (.009"/.011"). 

I personally don't like to see under .0025" for a standard FE rod journal bearing clearance. 

If he's slick with a polisher, he can take off close to a thou while keeping it straight and round.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2022, 05:30:57 AM by blykins »
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

My427stang

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Re: Rod bearing clearance how tight is to tight
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2022, 08:25:38 PM »
Speedpro / FM bearings tend to run a little big.

Also, there are CB-756P Clevites for 427s and "special" 390s, their term not mine, that are generally .001 looser.  Harder to find but a nice option

Both options might be able to get you closer. FYI Ford specs are crazy tight, but I don't know anyone who goes there
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

GerryP

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Re: Rod bearing clearance how tight is to tight
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2022, 06:21:03 AM »
The general rule for a performance build is .001" per inch of journal diameter on rods and mains.  That's not carved in stone so a minor + or - is fine, but you are a bit outside the tolerance.  It would run like that and last as a mild daily driver but I wouldn't lean on it.

pbf777

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Re: Rod bearing clearance how tight is to tight
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2022, 11:30:56 AM »
If he's slick with a polisher, he can take off close to a thou while keeping it straight and round.

The crankshaft polishing process is intended solely as a surface texture addressment, not for the purpose of attempting to remove any significant sum of metal.  Yes, if one is well versed with a polishing machine and technique the outcome of an effort will be better; but, this equipment and the expendables are just not engineered to permit this, and an acceptably straight and round observation will be more of a function of how critical the inspection post this effort is.   ;)

And yeah, the sum of .0015" of oil clearance is a might tight for an FE engine (others vary), but if you have the critical dimensions right (round & square  ??? ) and the project was for Grandma to drive to the store and church, it would probably work fine, one might even venture to say superior, and I have witnessed such. But for a hot-rod with an exuberant operator well..........; so I would probably attempt to find somebodies bearings that provide +.001" something and see if you can make for an additional value, though this may prove fruitless beyond a few tenths of dimension.  Also double check the rod big-end I.D.'s for size, determine that the crankshaft journal(s) are actually ground to the hi-side of dimension, and if no other option, realize that the proper process is to cut the crank again to the next size under with an intentional finish dimension that provides more closely what your looking for.   :)

Scott.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2022, 11:37:15 AM by pbf777 »

My427stang

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Re: Rod bearing clearance how tight is to tight
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2022, 01:51:23 PM »
If he's slick with a polisher, he can take off close to a thou while keeping it straight and round.

The crankshaft polishing process is intended solely as a surface texture addressment, not for the purpose of attempting to remove any significant sum of metal.  Yes, if one is well versed with a polishing machine and technique the outcome of an effort will be better; but, this equipment and the expendables are just not engineered to permit this, and an acceptably straight and round observation will be more of a function of how critical the inspection post this effort is.   ;)

And yeah, the sum of .0015" of oil clearance is a might tight for an FE engine (others vary), but if you have the critical dimensions right (round & square  ??? ) and the project was for Grandma to drive to the store and church, it would probably work fine, one might even venture to say superior, and I have witnessed such. But for a hot-rod with an exuberant operator well..........; so I would probably attempt to find somebodies bearings that provide +.001" something and see if you can make for an additional value, though this may prove fruitless beyond a few tenths of dimension.  Also double check the rod big-end I.D.'s for size, determine that the crankshaft journal(s) are actually ground to the hi-side of dimension, and if no other option, realize that the proper process is to cut the crank again to the next size under with an intentional finish dimension that provides more closely what your looking for.   :)

Scott.

The advice on checking the big end is sound, if it's on the low side, you could take a smidge off easily and without going to limits. I am not a fan of the high side of crush though

Remember, old school stuff like dressing the back of the bearing, deburring, etc.  All are sound within reason, and do not underestimate that bearings measure differently.  Another set, different brand could be entirely different.  I see it all the time.  In fact, one day, I will use the two sets of BBC FM coated bearings I have.  I can't prove it over 4 years of never being acceptable to me, but I am an optimist :)

Last thing is, how are you measuring?  Certainly not meant to offend or accuse, but tight hand with a micrometer, less than accurate bore gauge, old bad eyes, etc, all matter. 
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

frnkeore

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Re: Rod bearing clearance how tight is to tight
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2022, 02:34:30 PM »
My question is. Did you use a bore gauge to measure the ID of the rod bearing and the rod bore? Also, is the .0015 clearance, the same, on all rod bearings or, is that the smallest clearance?
Frank

BigBlueIron

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Re: Rod bearing clearance how tight is to tight
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2022, 04:24:13 PM »
I should have specified the clearances "I" wanted when I dropped the parts off. That is completely on me, idk why but it just didn't cross my mind. The shop ground the crank per their book resource which called for .001-.0025. And they landed it pretty much in the middle of that. They did a fine job, this was lack of communication on my end.

I asked him to do what he could on the polish, we will see what it is then and I will probably order some different bearings and see how they do before re cutting a fresh cut crank.

When I asked if .0015 was to tight I already knew the answer...

cjshaker

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Re: Rod bearing clearance how tight is to tight
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2022, 09:13:20 PM »
Last thing is, how are you measuring?  Certainly not meant to offend or accuse, but tight hand with a micrometer, less than accurate bore gauge, old bad eyes, etc, all matter.

This^^

A light vs heavy touch on a micrometer easily makes for a .005 difference. And if all the gauges/micrometers aren't calibrated to each other with a verified checker, then all numbers are pretty much meaningless anyway. A 1" calibration checker, or whatever they're called, is really necessary. Then mark any differences between all gauges and micrometers so that number can be added/subtracted from any final numbers you come up with. They can easily vary by +-.005, if not more, depending on age and quality. Just a couple of things to keep in mind when trying to determine exact clearances.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

blykins

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Re: Rod bearing clearance how tight is to tight
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2022, 04:59:07 AM »
Last thing is, how are you measuring?  Certainly not meant to offend or accuse, but tight hand with a micrometer, less than accurate bore gauge, old bad eyes, etc, all matter.

This^^

A light vs heavy touch on a micrometer easily makes for a .005 difference. And if all the gauges/micrometers aren't calibrated to each other with a verified checker, then all numbers are pretty much meaningless anyway. A 1" calibration checker, or whatever they're called, is really necessary. Then mark any differences between all gauges and micrometers so that number can be added/subtracted from any final numbers you come up with. They can easily vary by +-.005, if not more, depending on age and quality. Just a couple of things to keep in mind when trying to determine exact clearances.

That's a great point, checking your mics against a standard should be a daily occurrence for the guys that use them every day and a good habit upon usage for the DIY'ers.   However, if they're off, no need to add/subtract numbers, you just use the micrometer wrench and readjust the barrel.   Your micrometer for checking bearing clearances on an FE will be a 2-3" micrometer, so it should be a 2" standard.

Bore gauges will never be "off" because you set them to the micrometer or setting fixture that you're using each time. 

Another good point that you made, is that a micrometer is a "touch" tool.  If I gave 20 guys the same mic and told them to measure a crank journal, there would probably be a tenth or two (.0001-.0002") spread between all the measurements.   Even using the barrel against the clutch can sometimes show a .0001" difference.   

I also agree with Scott, there are probably specific situations where a .0015" oil clearance might live, but it will be a very specific situation:  all .0015" measurements across the board, no taper or out-of-round situations, very light viscosity oil, and a life of idling around.  I would also have to lump in new, rigid connecting rods in with that.  Back "in the day" guys were having to do all kinds of stupid stuff to make FE's live at high-rpm/high-hp, including honing the rod journals out of round.  Now we slap in a good set of Molnar rods and turn 'em way up.

In the OP's situation, it's quite possible that the tolerances just stacked up against him and that's the clearances that he got.  If you hand a machinist a bunch of parts and tell them to go to work, they don't generally put everything together, measure clearances, and then adjust everything to fit.  Unless given specific instructions, they just grind/machine everything to spec:  main housing bore to middle of spec, crank journals to middle of spec, rod big ends to middle of spec, etc. 

When I send a crank to my local grinder, I give him specific instructions based on what's worked for me in the past.  I've got 2 cranks at the grinder right now getting "adjusted".  I only use coated bearings and bearing selections have been straight up stupid for the past 2 years, so I have to use what's available on the shelf and "adjust".

If this were a SBC, then you could just go buy a set of .009" or .011" bearings and mix and match.  However, the amount of bearings out there for FE's are few and far between.  That's why your new aftermarket blocks are all cut for Cleveland bearings.  You can't even get a true "X" main bearing for an FE, you have to grind the tangs off Cleveland bearings and use those. 

Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

My427stang

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Re: Rod bearing clearance how tight is to tight
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2022, 07:26:16 AM »
What Brent said, but no kidding, if you are confident in your measurement, I'd consider trying a second brand of bearing.

Might be a get out of jail free card...truth in lending though, probably not returnable if you drag a bore gauge over them.

I won't get to it until the end of day, but I can see what I have on the shelf too.  Not too much .010 stuff, but the last 390 I did we cut the crank and I think I chased clearances a bit, I'll look
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

GerryP

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Re: Rod bearing clearance how tight is to tight
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2022, 07:45:49 AM »
The most accurate way to measure clearance is to use a bore gauge/ball anvil micrometer combo.  Measure your bearing shell thickness with the ball anvil mic.  Add that to journal diameter.  Set a flat anvil mic to that dimension, then the bore gauge to the mic as normal.  Measure the bore without the bearing shells in them.  The  bore indicator will leave indentation marks in the soft bearing material and that does affect accuracy.  Using the bore gauge on the hard iron bores does not indent.