Author Topic: Street Compression for 4V Cleveland  (Read 1343 times)

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410bruce

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Street Compression for 4V Cleveland
« on: April 20, 2022, 11:44:04 AM »
4V closed chamber heads. What would you guys recommend to be the highest compression ratio for 91 pump gas? 9.5 or so?
The Cleveland forums seem to be kind of slow so that's why I ask here.
I know some of you guys play with the C as well as the FE.

Thanks.

blykins

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Re: Street Compression for 4V Cleveland
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2022, 12:11:10 PM »
I didn't see you post on my Cleveland forum.  :)

9.5 is usually a safe spot with a shorter duration street cam. 
Brent Lykins
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FrozenMerc

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Re: Street Compression for 4V Cleveland
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2022, 12:50:28 PM »
I agree 9.5 to 10 should be fine with the right cam and tune.  You could go higher, but you will need to control everything pretty tightly. 

Hell, the wife had a VW Passat that was direct injected, turbocharged, and was still a 10:1 compression motor despite being able to push 15 lbs of boost.  Kind of cool what you can get away with, with the right engine control setup. 

jayb

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Re: Street Compression for 4V Cleveland
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2022, 02:21:54 PM »
Totally depends on the cam, IMO.  Cam and compression need to be picked together.  I wouldn't be afraid to run 11:1 on pump gas if the cam is big enough.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

410bruce

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Re: Street Compression for 4V Cleveland
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2022, 05:43:52 PM »
Thanks for the replies, guys.
Brent, I probably should have, but I'm always drawn to the FE forums for some reason. I'll post over there more as I get into the engine build.

Jay, I would love to run 11:1, especially since that's what the M code Cleveland came with factory in my car, a 1970 Cougar.

blykins

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Re: Street Compression for 4V Cleveland
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2022, 04:30:43 AM »
But they also had leaded fuel.

11:1 on 91 octane would take a whole lot of effort and you don't really gain much from it.  Compression is one of those things where it takes a decent bump to see a worthwhile difference...i.e. going from 10:1 to 12:1, etc.  A good ballpark estimation of what you gain is about 5% for every point. 

There is also a limit to what the cam can do for you. 

Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
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70tp

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Re: Street Compression for 4V Cleveland
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2022, 06:35:38 AM »
Ran a flat top closed chambered one once with a f238 crane cam.  It still rattled its guts out, literally.   
Replaced it with an open chambered one , didnt rattle but didn’t run strong either.   
These two were identical other than that and also theses two made me more interested in what Brent does with cams and such.  One combo made big power , the next with just lower comp was just meh.   

My427stang

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Re: Street Compression for 4V Cleveland
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2022, 07:32:54 AM »
So I actually agree that the effects of a late intake closing can offset high compression, but the issue can become that the parts are no longer matching for intended use and potentially adds a harder hitting compression problem as VE climbs.  The 351C 4V is more fussy on both of these than our FEs  because of lopsided port volumes and flow, combined with short stroke

I am not a 351C guy, but a 260-ish cfm intake with a 160-ish exhaust will want some split and on the street, a human sized primary pipe.  The bigger or later the intake lobe, the the lazier a big port 351 will be.  Additionally, although custom cams can widen the LSA to keep from too much overlap making that worse, especially when you add split, IMHO it won't offset the benefit from the early cam timing pulling on the port.

The second thing, overlap effectively allows the negative exhaust pulse to fill the cylinder more, as that engine becomes efficient at higher RPM, that onset will come faster and steeper, GREAT if the fuel is there, but not so good if it isn't

So I pick RPM range with the head and induction system I choose, cam for that, make sure the quench is tight, and for the street try to avoid domes (EDIT: although Brent pointed out that a closed chamber C doesn't need a dome at that compression), then pick compression for the fuel being used in that purpose.  Brent can give you some nuance on successful combos as he has done more 351Cs than I have, but here's a little backwards math for 11:1

11:1 compression, and assuming a pump gas engine, and power brakes

You'd need somewhere around 300 adv intake, 310 exhaust on 106 ICL, at that point, a 114 ICL would barely get you power brakes, but without them would sound pretty healthy but be flat on the bottom with modern cams that's a real big cam.  If you retarded it to 112 ICL, which is way old school and I wouldn't recommend it, you could likely run 286/296 and tighten things up to 110, but it would still be very soft on the bottom, this time from low vacuum.  FWIW, that was what Ford did a lot.  Late ICL, wide LSA.  J-code 302s, CJs, both around 114 LSA and ICL, not the greatest combo compared to today

Now switch that to 10:1, you could be in the 276/288 adv range, have less overlap at 111 for clean operation and high vac down low (or go tight for a little more pulling on the port because you have room with overlap) but you can run at an ICL of around 106

So it may sound like I am jamming at the concept of adding cam, not really, but on a big ported, smaller engine, it gets you into odd places quick, especially on the street. 

I'd dig deeper on gearing, vehicle weight, and intended use, then intake and header plan, then pick a cam, then go for unobstructed flame path and tight quench at whatever the compression range needs to for the fuel you need .  I'd bet 9.5-10:1 is pretty close for the street pump gas 

Remember, 10:1 vs 11:1, when matching fuel and use is a big difference, but, if you are closing the valve so late to get there, mechanically you are taking away the benefit at your working RPM.  Drag racing, different function, different answer but you would need the fuel to do it too as it exceeds 100% VE, rapidly












« Last Edit: April 21, 2022, 07:47:01 AM by My427stang »
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

jayb

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Re: Street Compression for 4V Cleveland
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2022, 08:43:02 AM »
Again, going to disagree with some of the comments.  I've run up to 13:1 on pump premium fuel between tracks at Drag Week, with a great big cam that closes the intake valve about 87 degrees ABDC, with no knocking issues.  At the track I switch to race fuel. on a setup like that, for safety sake.  On the other hand, my 11:1 511" FE that ran at Drag Week in 2005 ran the fastest ever pass on 92 octane pump gas, 10.45 @ 129.  Drove that car everywhere on the street, including 2500 miles the week of that first Drag Week.  That one had a 266@.050 intake lobe.

To me it all depends on how the car is set up, and what you want out of the engine.  You can't run a lot of compression if you've got a 3.25 rear gear, or a stock torque converter, or any other equipment that will make the engine lug at some point.  If you are looking for an engine with excellent off-idle throttle response, dial down the cam and compression.  A 4V Cleveland with stock heads is never going to have great off idle performance because of those big intake ports, so to me building it to make high RPM power is a no brainer.  And in that case, 11:1 compression is certainly do-able with pump fuel.

One other thing - port injected EFI can really help.  The ability to map the timing curve due to load, and adjust the fuel delivery anywhere in the operating envelope, makes it easy to tune the car to run on whatever fuel is available.  On my Drag Week cars, I have a street tune and a race tune, selectable with a toggle on the dash.  The race tune is more radical, and I run it at the track with race fuel.  Switch to the street tune for the street on pump premium, and the car behaves perfectly.  The big SOHC I ran in 2009 in my Galaxie had that setup, with 13:1 compression and a couple big cams, and ran flawlessly that year.  That engine used an EFI converted Hilborn injection system, and would idle at 750 RPM.  At 3935 pounds with me in it, it ran 9.50s at every track, and made the 1200 mile trip that year with no issues.  Nobody at that event could believe how well that car worked.  Curt Johnson, who's Dad's car ran second in my class, kept coming over to look at the car.  I think he was trying to find evidence of nitrous ;D  He finally says to me, "You are pushing a BRICK down the quarter mile!". 

Sorry I wandered a little.  I think if the car and engine are set up correctly, running 11:1 on pump fuel is no problem.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

blykins

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Re: Street Compression for 4V Cleveland
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2022, 09:40:16 AM »
I would (and have) run 11:1 on 93 octane with the right setup.  I have actually built a couple of SBF/Clevor engines that ran on 93 octane at 11.3:1.

I would also cap the compression right around that number.   Continuing to add compression with the intention of just adding lots of advertised duration to match will probably end up in a wad of disappointment.  The 13:1 on pump gas worked because it was a light load.   A full load/pull/pass would have ended differently. 

For the normal "street engine", I would also play it safe on compression ratios, especially with 90-91 octane being used.  As I mentioned earlier, you don't really get much for the risk.  I can get the 15 hp back with a carb spacer. 

Hydraulic rollers make it a little easier to help with the compression.  Probably won't get even close with a flat tappet. 
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
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My427stang

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Re: Street Compression for 4V Cleveland
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2022, 10:21:22 AM »
FWIW, I am with Brent, street vehicle, not race car used on the street, I have been up past 10.75 and it can work fine,but it all depends on street car definition and parts/machining

You and I are definitely using different definitions for street use, not sure what Bruce's is yet.  We can't shoot at each others definition, because it's what the owner wants.  I am amazed at the things you do too, fast and drivable, but your post focused on 1/4 mile times (HP peaks) combined with tolerance of driving to those events.

My success won't click of 9 second time slips, but I can make 15 inches of vacuum and idle in the Hampton bridges and tunnels with the A/C on with a .64 OD, power brakes and 550-600 hp and never have to switch  fuel...and on my own car, has done so for over a decade.  Two completely different views of street cars and use, and both are right but either could also be very wrong for another owner too

However, you put some very specific things that are much different. Way cool, but way different  150+ more cubes, port cross section and volume to cid ratio is WAY better on a wedge, and likely so even on a big inch SOHC and when you look at those things, a 266 duration intake would be MUCH smaller for a 351C running in the same RPM range,or require it to be even more radical. Less duration means earlier closing point unless you retard it.  Probably 25+ degrees less depending on the setup, but to get to a late IVC, it's be an odd cam IMHO or have to spin real high

The thing I really think we differ on is the idea of pulling on a big port.  You can do it with RPM and use overlap or you can do it with cam design and cam timing at lower RPM.  With modern lobes, I don't think it's that hard to pull on a 4v port with the right cam at street RPM, of course you can't have it all, a wider LSA, earlier cam timing, will cost somewhere, but more RPM costs somewhere too.   

That's why I said he needs to define his use first. 

One thing I absolutely agree with is, EFI makes it better....A/F control, timing control, all with temp, load, baro, etc inputs...muy bueno and can let you push the envelope further.  FWIW my EFI 489 Mustang is 10.7:1 now and runs on anything, even with a crappy Edel chamber but tight quench and has so since 2006 carbed and got better in 2008 with the port injection and timing control. 

Newer version of the engine (only being done for fun, in fact it pains me to pull the current one down) won't climb a lot in compression, but will a little, and will have a better chamber reducing the need for more total and breathe deeper.  Question I haven't decided yet is do I leave the cam as is, or spread the centers and go bigger and earlier for similar RPM range?

Again, I don't really think we disagree, I haven't built or competed in drag week, but I would go more radical for that use, but if this in a pickup, even a hot one, or a car with more universal fuel use and stoplight fun, I think  11:1 takes a little more thinking and better machining/measurement for an iron head 351, 10:1 is likely a little easier.

I still have a Boss 302 hanging in the shadows for a build, I'll put my money where my mouth is if/when that happens, but for now, have to hang with recommendations and bench racing

EDITED for spelling errors/typos
« Last Edit: April 21, 2022, 10:30:02 AM by My427stang »
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

410bruce

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Re: Street Compression for 4V Cleveland
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2022, 06:34:43 PM »
Excellent discussion, guys! Another reason I like these FE forums so much.

I'm not exactly sure yet just how far I want to push the envelope of "streetable."
That definition has mellowed a bit since my 30s.  :)

Probably go for a mild performance build, more stomp than stock but not a street-legal drag car.
I don't know if 400 hp would be considered a "mild" Cleveland build but I'd kind of like to shoot for that number, or there abouts.

blykins

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Re: Street Compression for 4V Cleveland
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2022, 07:03:38 PM »
It’s easy to get 425-450 hp with stock 4V heads and a dual plane intake.  The hydraulic roller that would get you there would peak at about 5500-5700 and it would not be 11:1 friendly.

9.5-10:1 would be a good spot to be in with that combo. 
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
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Rory428

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Re: Street Compression for 4V Cleveland
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2022, 08:48:52 PM »
From 1976 thru 1980, I owned 2 70 Mustangs, with the M code 300 HP 351C 4V engines. Both were FMX automatics, until I converted the Sportsroof to a Toploader 4 speed. The Sportroof also had a set of Cyclone headers, connected to the factory mufflers and tailpipes, the Mach 1 was all original, both cars had 3.25 gears, the Mach 1 had the fake hood scoop, the Sportsroof had a Shaker hood. Even back in the mid-late 70s, with 100 0ctane Chevron leaded gas, those close chamer 351Cs were very sensitive to pinging if you ran much ignition timing. You could pull some timing out, but that usually really hurt the performance. That said, depending on what you read, those 70 4V engine were rated at either 10.7-1, or 11.0-1 compression, and had a really mild .450ish lift cam, so they were certainly on the edge. And with the big 4V heads, they were pretty soft for low end performance, woke up at 3000 RPM, but the small cam signed of at 54-5500 RPM. So a decent cam would have helped at both the higher RPM, and with detonation.
1978 Fairmont,FE 427 with 428 crank, 4 speed Jerico best of 9.972@132.54MPH 1.29 60 foot
1985 Mustang HB 331 SB Ford, 4 speed Jerico, best of 10.29@128 MPH 1.40 60 foot.
1974 F350 race car hauler 390 NP435 4 speed
1959 Ford Meteor 2 dr sedan. 428 Cobra Jet, 4 speed Toploader. 12.54@ 108 MPH

Falcon67

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Re: Street Compression for 4V Cleveland
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2022, 01:56:56 PM »
351C, 3.5 stroke, zero deck, 65cc chambers, ported and filled iron heads, flat top TRW forged, stock block - 10.5:1.  Cam is a Howards hydro roller.  233/241 @ 0.050, 110 LSA  106 IC.  IIRC it has about 160ish PSI cranking compression.  Ignition lead is 36 right now.  It's "sluggish" at 34 and there's not much difference between 36 and 38.  36 is best MPH on the track and decent overall operation. 

Run it on 91 and it'll pepper the plugs.  I mix 2 gallons 91 pump with 3 gallons VP110 for use in the car.  There is no 93 around here anymore.  How bad IMHO is 91?  I bought a barrel of VP110 for $480 to use this season.

For street 9.5 or under.  And maybe you'll get by with 91.

Pump fuel is crap.  "87 octane" in Oklahoma gets my F-350 nearly 1 MPG less than 87 octane bought in west Texas.  And we're way higher altitude here than there.  It should be the other way 'round.