Wide Band A/F ratio gauge ?s

[Rory428]

I am looking at buying an Innovate wide band air fuel ratio gauge, just wondering if anybody here as much experience with these. Looking at using it more as a carb tuning tool, than something I plan to install permanently, as I would like to use it to dial in both the 428 CJ in my 59 (unleaded premium pump gas), as well as the Fairmont, which usually burns VP C12 leaded race gas. I understand the leaded fuel will eventually foul the O2 sensor, so I would prefer to use it on the 59 first, just wondering where I should weld a bung into the exhaust system. The 59 has FPA shorty/mid length headers, I have heard of some guys just drilling a hole for the O2 sensor close to the tailpipe outlet, but I know when working at Toyota, the factory tended to put O2 sensors quite close to the cylinder head, some only a few inches from the exhaust ports in the exhaust manifold, others still usually less than 2 feet from the head(s). As for the Fairmont, which currently has a 347 SB Ford in it, the headers are long tube FlowTechs, which have a bung already welded into one primary tube on each bank, just ahead of the collectors. I run no mufflers or pipes on the Fairmont, just a short turn down, to mainly divert exhaust fumes from wafting into the car thru the shifter hole. The 59 has a full 2 1/2" exhaust system all the way to behind the rear tires. Anybody know how long it takes for the leaded gas to foul the O2 sensor, and once fouled, is it junk, or is it possible to clean it ? (Carb cleaner?)

[stubbie]

I did read somewhere that O2 sensors should be about 2 feet from the engine. Probably just after were the pipe bends to go under the vehicle would be a good spot.

[GerryP]

The reason for sensor placement close to the exhaust port is it is hottest there and doesn't need the HSO2 heating element to be burning except for cold start.  The faster the factory can get the engine into closed loop, the fewer emissions, which makes the government very happy.  The sensor will not work once temperature drops.  I believe something like 600 degrees is my recollection.  But you might want to check that if having passive heat is important.  If it is, then you need to have the sensor mounted as close to the exhaust head as possible to get a collective reading.  It has been my experience that the sensor tailpipe adapter works just fine.  You would think it would suffer gas contamination from the exhaust pulses, but that doesn't seem to be the case.  The reading is very stable.  I don't know how long a sensor lasts with leaded fuel.  From what I've read, the lifespan is pretty significant, but TEL does degrade them over time.  You're not going to kill one doing dyno runs unless you are making pulls like a mad man.  Leaded fuel is hard on a catalytic converter in short order, and I believe converter issues got attached to O2 sensors.  But, again, sensors have a suitably long lifespan on leaded fuel for dynos and racing.

[gregaba]

You can clean O2 sensors.
We used to do it all the time in the shop.
If you have an Ox-Acc torch [old gas torch] you just remove the O2 sensor and use the gas torch to burn off all the black build up on the sensor.
Mostly you can clean one in 5 to 15 minutes.
A lot cheaper then buying a new sensor.
Greg

[DubyaTF]

   I have their dual O2 installed in my F100. It's a little more involved for a temporary use I'd say. Innovate's instructions call for O2 sensors no closer than 24" to the port but also before any crossover pipe. I'm not sure how much the leaded fuel would affect the sensors if it's tuned right.

[6667fan]

Rory, on the car with the full exhaust the sensor should be on the passenger bank, ( not sure why but that is used to be what Innovate recommended ). It is to be placed after the four tubes come together but not downstream from that if possible. I don’t believe Innovate recognizes the tailpipe location.
On the car with the short exhaust you are likely to either experience reversion or an otherwise lean reading. This is based on my experience with their products in several vehicles. One car had the sensor too close to cut outs in the exhaust. If the cutouts were open the reading was skewed tremendously towards a lean condition which was not actually occurring. This was validated by relocating the sensor to the appropriate location closer to the header collector.

[427LX]

Been using them since they came out with the Innovate and now run the AEM gage which is easier for me to see.  You will be using it a lot to tune your part throttle cruise ratio.
Depending on your engine setup you might find a 13.8 ratio is the leanest your engine might tolerate without a surge or stumble. Others might run smooth with a 14.40 at part throttle cruise.
Intake manifold,cam and gear ratio will make a difference.  Be ready to adjust your Idle Air Bleed restrictor jets for a final tune depending on seasonal weather changes.

On my setup my IAB can vary from .068 to .073 depending on cold or hot weather. My sensor is at the collector.

[jayb]

I've tried cleaning the sensors with a torch, after use with race gas multiple times, and it has never worked; they don't seem to calibrate correctly after that.  I have found that the Bosch sensors are much more susceptible to issues with race gas than the NTK sensors, so I prefer to use them.  However, they are more expensive.  I always put the bung in the collectors to get a summation of all four primary pipes on one side, rather than in one of the primaries, unless you have a four sensor system for that side and can look at all four cylinders.  Also, a big cam will fool the O2 sensor at lower engine speeds, but they will still work well at WOT.  This makes it dangerous to rely on the sensors in a self-tuning EFI system, if you have a higher HP engine.

I was never very happy with the Innovate product despite purchasing them several times, so I've gone to the package from Ballenger Motorsports (Formerly NGK/NTK):

https://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/product_info.php/products_id/2337

[gregaba]

We never tried to use the torch on a car using race gas, just normal street cars running pump gas.
Never had a car in the shop using race gas as we were just a regular repair shop.
However with pump gas the computers in the cars we did never gave us a code after we used that method.
I should have thought of race gas use but didn't.
Greg

[Rory428]

The Fairmont is strictly a drag car, so part throttle is not a concern, launch RPM is always 6000 or higher. The 59 is mostly a street driven, with maybe one or 2 weekends a year at the dragstrip, with a mild cam (228@.050" duration solid flat tappet), and I doubt that I will ever open the exhaust up. The plugs on the Fairmont look quite good, but would still like to know the A/F ratio to be certain all is good. The 59, I plan to try a couple of different carbs on, so would like to make sure each is fairly close. I have seen kits where they clamp the O2 sensor to the end of the tailpipe, but have concerns how accurate that could be.

[HR427]

You could look into the Daytona Sensors Wego unit.  You can add that to RPM's DL10 datalogger and have evrything on one unit.  Much cheaper than a racepak

[BigBlueIron]

After reading reviews I settled on the AEM https://www.aemelectronics.com/products/gauges/digital-gauges/x-series-wideband-uego-afr-sensor-controller-gauge Read some not so great things on the Innovative, which is what I had intended to buy at first.

Couldn't be happier with the AEM. Good quality harness, small easy to read gauge. I use it on Lambda, just flip the cover over and reset the gauge, really easy. While this gauge is intended for a permanent install, the way the wires are setup/designed it lends itself to be used as a temporary setup fairly well.

It really helped me on my turbo propane project, it is impossible to read plugs. The idle and WOT definitely needed some adjustment, part throttle was good though. Worth the money for sure.

[6667fan]

If I was starting over with Wide Band it would be with something other than Innovate. At the beginning of employing their systems their customer service was underwhelming. Perhaps it is better now.
The sensors used generally are designed for vehicles using unleaded fuel. Depending on street miles the one in my Fairlane might go a season and a half. I like seeing the gauge and making adjustments as needed. Some transitional areas will take time with air bleeds as mentioned. However, leaving the sensor in continually will decrease its life. Some users are happy to tune and then remove the sensor until the next tuning session.
I’m okay with buying a sensor as needed and swapping it out. The Bosch 4.9 LSU sensor for the system in Fairlane is around $45.