Toploader Troubleshooting

[Diogenes]

My toploader has been making some noise and providing some other feedback through the shifter. I thought I might have had a clutch adjustment issue, but I addressed that already. The issue doesn't present itself until it is warmed up, maybe 10-ish miles. I get a whine/squeal (almost a grind, but not quite) when attempting to put it into a gear, pedal depressed there is no problem, but when attempting to place into gear with shifter it begins making its noise and provides some uncomfortable tactile feedback. I then place it into neutral and rev the engine, then I get my gear. This problem has happened in all gears. Fortunately, this problem only recently presented, so it has not been driven much in this condition

Needless to say, it's back on jackstands again (damn it!), and I pulled the trans expecting something to be clearly wrong, but nothing obvious presents itself. At this point it will be getting a rebuild, but I would like to identify the failure before just throwing some money and work at it.

HEH-CG big in/out, Valvoline GL-4 conventional 80w90, bronze pilot bushing from McLeod long-style clutch kit.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[475fetoploader]

I would have expected you to say the throw out bearing was compromised, when you pulled the trans.

[Cyclone03]

Sounds like the “blocking rings” (synchros ) are worn. Are they loose or nearly touching the engagement teeth of the gear?
They should not rock either.

[Diogenes]

The throw out bearing had some life taken out of it, but I don't think it is trashed. The clutch pedal fully depressed is quiet, but when I try to select a gear is when the noise and sensation occur (while pedal is fully depressed).

The blocker rings are "loose" (but where is the threshold for looseness?) and appear to rock a bit. Syncros have been a thought. 

[Tom Gahman]

sounds like the input shaft is still turning when your pedal is down.
check pilot to input and check that the disc splines don't hang up on the shaft.
Also clutch adjustment.{drag when hot}

[Diogenes]

The clutch adjustment is good, though not certain about the disc hanging up when hot, nor the pilot. There is a wear pattern on the input from the pilot, but no galling. I'll probably try to find a roller pilot to replace the bronze bushing.

[galaxiex]

My toploader has been making some noise and providing some other feedback through the shifter. I thought I might have had a clutch adjustment issue, but I addressed that already. The issue doesn't present itself until it is warmed up, maybe 10-ish miles. I get a whine/squeal (almost a grind, but not quite) when attempting to put it into a gear, pedal depressed there is no problem, but when attempting to place into gear with shifter it begins making its noise and provides some uncomfortable tactile feedback. I then place it into neutral and rev the engine, then I get my gear. This problem has happened in all gears. Fortunately, this problem only recently presented, so it has not been driven much in this condition

Needless to say, it's back on jackstands again (damn it!), and I pulled the trans expecting something to be clearly wrong, but nothing obvious presents itself. At this point it will be getting a rebuild, but I would like to identify the failure before just throwing some money and work at it.

HEH-CG big in/out, Valvoline GL-4 conventional 80w90, bronze pilot bushing from McLeod long-style clutch kit.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

This is classic pilot bushing running dry.

You did lube it when installed, right? 

Grease is the wrong lube.

One way to lube a sintered bronze bushing like this, is to place it on a rubber mat one open side down.
Fill the center hole with 30 wt engine oil.
Hold the bushing down tight to the rubber, and press your thumb on the top open side and "squeeze push" force the oil "into" the bushing.
Being a sintered material it is porous and will absorb the oil.
When it's properly lubed you will see the oil actually seeping thru the outside walls of the bushing.

You can do this with both thumbs as a kind of tricky balancing act also.

Or you could just soak it overnight in some oil, it will absorb into the bushing.
A little heat helps too.

I would not use a needle bearing roller type that has the needles running on the input shaft.
Too easy to have it run dry and the needles will chew up your input shaft.

A properly lubed bushing will last a good long time, and no risk of damage to the input shaft.

[Diogenes]

I did not oil it. I thought these bushings did not require lube, with some people warning against it (oilite bronze). Of course I've heard all the "old-timers" (I'm slowly becoming one of them) talk of packing wheel bearing grease behind the bushing before installation. There is a wear pattern on the input snout, but I don't see any galling.

Perhaps I should start a new thread getting thoughts and opinions on pilot bushing install. I will keep with the bushing and won't go to the bearing, even though I never had problems with the bearing in my Cougar, but it was a small block (but it saw some hard service).

[galaxiex]

Well I’m an “old guy” been in the trans biz for 45 years.
These bushings definitely require lube.

[ford88]

I rebuild these all the time those bushings need no lube at all....we race stick cars and beat them to death never lubed them.Pull trans apart and inspect all parts.

[Diogenes]

I figured that if I was pulling it to inspect I would go ahead and rebuild it, I'm sure it is (over)due. Hopefully I'll find a definitive answer on the cause of the symptoms I described once I tear it down and inspect it. 

I suspected the pilot bushing lube question would elicit varying opinions.

[galaxiex]

The sintered bronze bushing that is typically used for manual trans pilot bushings is known as "Oilite".

That is a trade name, so ask them if it needs lube or not.

https://oilite.com/

Here's a few other opinions on the matter....

https://forums.aaca.org/topic/319475-pilot-bearing-lubrication/

[Diogenes]

Good links, thanks for posting. 

[BattlestarGalactic]

Another one here that has never done much other then a dab of wheel grease on it when installing a transmission and never had issues.

They do list the material as having "impregnated with a synthetic lube".  That was always my thought, it has lubrication properties built in, so just a minimal amount during installation would be more then adequate.   Guess not?

I do run a sealed roller bearing in the race car.

[Falcon67]

I'm kinda "old school" too, just haven't run a stick in maybe 30 years LOL.  I would cut a beer can in half, add some 30wt, throw in the bushing and set it on a coffee warmer for a while.  The mfg company I worked for built instrumentation that also used "oilite" bushings in the chassis.  They came in as oil soaked parts and where stored in stock wrapped in "fish paper" to keep them wet.  At installation they were pressed into whatever assembly, reamed to final size (spec usually .0005 +/- ) and a daub of machine oil added during any final shaft/bushing insertion assembly procedure.  Per the engineering prints.  So it just came naturally since the pilot bushings looked "dry" to me as they came out of the box.  Only time I used grease was to pack the hole and use a shaft to drive the old bushing out with hydraulic pressure.