BBM head info

[cjshaker]

So if it has to line up with dyno tests and dynos vary, how does that work?  Blair said that he dropped 20 hp from Bischoff's to the EMC dyno but Barry didn't drop any.  Kaase tells everyone his dyno is 5% high.  How does that all of that enter into the software?  If you're basing combinations off of dyno results, I'll tell you that there are 3 dynos in my area and there is 60 hp difference between them on an 800 hp circle track engine. 

If you're also entering empirical data in, as it relates to burn efficiency, chamber shape, piston shape, etc., how do you know what to enter, considering that isn't a line on a dyno chart, if that makes any sense?   Have you handled any of these aftermarket heads yourself?

Having been present at 3 EMC events, once as an observer, twice as a helper, and with talking to many of the competitors, including several of the winners, most of them say that the EMC dynos seemed to be "conservative" compared to what they individually dynoed at home. Maybe Barry's dyno is a bit 'stingy', not saying that in a bad light either, just as a possibility. I'm not claiming any intuition, just making an observation based on my limited experience at the events.

Brent, most of us know the issues you have in comparing dyno numbers. As Blair has pointed out many times, dynos are basically just tools, and we don't race dynos. There are guys with as much horsepower as I have, that run a fair amount quicker than I do. Obviously my skills and combo are not what they could be. Track tuning, a smart fella, and combo is everything when it comes to the proof of the pudding.....the ET. Rory and Dale are good examples of that. Splitting hairs over a few horsepower gets you nowhere if you can't make full use of what you have.

[blykins]

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[WerbyFord]

Hey Brent,
As others have hinted at in their replies -
I have to use ALL the information I can get. There are PTC and ASME standards for bias and systematic vs random errors, and that all has to pile in there. That is one reason they call it the Piled Higher & Deeper degree.

YES dynos differ. They SHOULDNT differ, but they do. Because, dynos have their own internal "Sims" and like the Gonkulator, they are clearly not perfect or they'd all agree with each other. And additional doubt enters in when dyno corrections are too large, since some of the corrections are empirical and sometimes used outside their limited intended standard range.
I became convinced a while back that Rory and Dale were using Canadian Dynos, influenced by the currency exchange rate, since it seems they could run 130mph on 400hp at will. And other dynos as noted. And then there's inference and downright guesswork involved.

I appreciate your trying to understand the Gonkulator and its methods but it literally does take years and multiple degrees.
I had to take up beer just to get thru Engineering. And then whiskey to get a Masters in it. And then for that Post-Hole-Digger, I caved to the Hard Stuff - Coffee. A cup, then a pot, then it gets to where a pot of coffee only wakes you up just enough to realize how tired you are and you fall asleep again.

And I do appreciate the data and the fun that you do share - and your insight. Just as you do, I use all the information and insight I can get!

You DO sound a bit snipey sometimes, I'll just take that as a lost-in-translation over the net, no harm meant. We are all learning here!

[Stangman]

Well said Werby you were within a half a tenth on my original quarter mile time when i got everything dialed in. As far as horsepower I never had it dynoed so we will never know but I would have to guess you must have been close. I think its fun what you do and I like to see if you get close.

[CaptCobrajet]

Comments deleted.  Censorship for some and not for others seems to be the new American way.  Incomplete information is sometimes worse than no information.

[blykins]

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[blykins]

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[67xr7cat]

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[blykins]

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[chilly460]

At this point I'd ask that guys don't jump in here to get personal with either of the builders so that we can keep the thread alive and retain the good info, and not have it pissed away and force Jay to moderate. 

If you have something to get off your chest, a PM would be the better channel. 

I imagine the logistics would be too tough to make it feasible, but I know I would be happy to chip in with money/driving/parts to see an engine get sent around to a few different dynos so we could baseline and finally put some real data to it.   I'm serious on that, I'm driving from VA to Montana in Sept, and VA to Idaho in November so practically covering the US....I'd be happy to pick up/drop off, deliver parts, etc. 

I have TFS heads, several roller cams ranging from 235 to 252*, 428 block, 428 crank....can chip in whatever on a dyno mule. 

[67xr7cat]

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[blykins]

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[Falcon67]

Ther are about 4 dynos around here.  One that I haven't been to in a while I know is only "calibrated" when they think it needs it.  And I can guarantee that software knobs are sometimes turned to get numbers a particular customer thinks they need.  I know the guys - it's a certain clique of people that revolve around that. The "come uppance" there is always the bench racing of numbers, then on the track the engine is being tinkered with, or worse, after two or three passes.  I've seen that shop's work run some good numbers, and seen their stuff come completely apart on like the 5th pass.  There have been previous legal actions.  One dyno is run strictly by the book, which causes him occasional grief should the motor/combo have crossed the special dyno at some other time.  The other two are in private hands used for their personal engine development. 

Old story from a old Ford line mechanic.  Sometime in the early 70s, lady bought a big Ford from a dealer in Fort Worth.  Came back, complained about the fuel mileage.  Several times.  Early smog stuff which us older people remember as being a real pain in the ass.  My friend was the senior tech and these things landed in his lap.  Checked the car each time, zero issues, everything spot on correct to all specifications.  Still the complaints.  After about the 5th visit to the dealer, Mr. Mechanic changed the speedo gearing to read a little fast, thereby slowing Mrs. Fuel Mileage down a bit.  No more complaints.  Expectations were met and the customer satisfied.

I use my EA software pretty much like a guy with a dyno - it's not about the HP and torque numbers being assumed correct, it's all about what changed in the output when certain inputs are modified.  Changed under the torque curve, where the peaks may happen in the RPM range, what changes I might see at flash stall RPM etc.  If it says "650 HP" it really doesn't mean squat.  I might be running in dry 65F weather DA 2000' in March and 105 heat index 112 DA 6800' in September, so peak power estimated and corrected to standard conditions is just a useless number except as a one more back-to-back result to observe.

[WerbyFord]

Agreed w Chilly I too really like this thread & am learning a whole lot from it.

One thing I can combine about what Blair & Brent & others have said here, regarding the Gonkulator:

If I didn’t say it strongly enough, the MOE (Mean Observed Error) in anything the Gonkulator spits out is typically +/- 3% on an engine, or typically over 15 ponies on the table above. That translates to over 1% in ET_MPH, or over 1mph and .10 sec. And that’s in the GONKULATOR, where magically the car and (each lane of) the track are held constant.

And that 3% on the engine Gonk is just the MOE MEAN error. Sure, the Gonk is off on rare occasions by 10% - not so much on the FE but on some of the obscure Brand X stuff. Sometimes it’s just missing data or even bad data (that does happen as noted by all here!), and sometimes it’s wrong or incomplete physics, which I try to improve when I have time. I’m glad the Gonk is helpful to some, and maybe even helps enthusiasm for the 60s era – but indeed, it is important to note when all those numbers are effectively “the same”, and would likely change rank order on a different build.

So anything in that table, if it’s within say less than 15-20 ponies and 1-1.5 mph, it’s basically THE SAME as far as the Gonkulator can separate. Lacking any other info, I’d still bet on the Gonk, and often do. But there IS other info – from various credible sources, and sure we often argue with each other because we CARE about this old iron (and aluminum). So as already stated all over the thread, it’s important to consider everything.

Somebody needs to invent Internet Beer.

[Yellow Truck]

Well, this didn't turn out well. I have had remarkable assistance on this forum from Ross, Brent, Barry, Howie (who seems to have vanished), Jay (how did I forget him in my first cut) and a few others. I've learned some interesting things from some others who know the history of some aspects of the FE and its development.

The value of having guys like the ones I mentioned share their experience and their experiments (like JJ) is huge. I don't see any of them promoting them selves EXCEPT by sharing what they know and do. I will be very sad if Brent has had enough of the sniping on here and decides to withdraw, any value he gets from promoting his business is dwarfed by the effort he puts into helping people like me. I've never bought a thing from him, I got my parts from Barry, but it didn't stop any of those guys from jumping in and helping me.

In the 16th century Sir Thomas Gresham coined his famous law "Bad money drives out good". It referred to the tendency of Kings to decrease the amount of gold or sliver in the coinage, after such a devaluation all the good money would disappear. We have the same problem on the internet. Debased "information" drives out good. We wind up with contributors with meaningful content driven out.