Author Topic: Teardown on the 352 and future plans....  (Read 4163 times)

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blykins

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Teardown on the 352 and future plans....
« on: July 21, 2021, 08:37:31 AM »
Teardown started on the 352 last Saturday morning.  I didn't have an engine stand freed up, so I completely tore it down while it was sitting on an engine cradle.  I'm expecting a medal based on my bravery and my ability to lay on the floor, brace my foot up against the bellhousing flange and use a breaker bar to loosen the rod/main bolts.  Well, it was either bravery or stupidity.  Maybe a little of both.  On second thought, it was pretty much all stupidity.

I couldn't be more happier with how the 352 performed or how reliable it was.  Between the first dyno iteration (not counting when we dyno'd it in stock 2V form) and the last iteration, we picked up almost 100 horsepower, going from 433 hp to 531.  I checked the oil filter after each dyno session and each time I was rewarded with a completely clean filter media. 

What I ended up in final form was a 352 with factory heads and 10.25:1 compression that ended up making 531 at 7200 rpm with 457 lb-ft of torque.  At .040" overbore, it made for 359 cubic inches, which ended up making 1.48 hp/ci.  I'm pleased.  FWIW, as a comparison, my bracket race 347's for 7/7.50 index will usually make about 540 hp with AFR heads, 11:1 compression, etc.  Now, to be fair, they will do it with a lot less camshaft than the 352 had, but there's a testament to how well a factory headed combination can behave. 

I was also happy to be able to do so many dyno sessions close together.  I'm not happy as to why I had that much spare time though, because there are a lot of parts manufacturers that really have the motorsports industry in a real bind right now.  Pistons are taking 12-16 weeks.  Heads are non-existent.  Intakes are non-existent.  Lifters are non-existent.   How we are supposed to get engines out the door is something that no one has an answer to right now.  But I digress....

If you remember, I first started the build with my non-adjustable roller tip rockers.  This was an exercise in patience and critical measuring, as trying to nail lash with nothing but pushrod length, lash caps, and lash cam shims, almost whipped my hindend.  It wasn't really a desire to make a non-adjustable roller rocker work with a solid cam, but it was a desire to *really* test the rocker setup out since the valve springs were set up at 680 lbs open.  The rockers made it through like a champ and then since I had the heads ported and the valve job changed, I switched over to T&D street rockers. 

I have always ran T&D streets at around 600 lbs of spring pressure and then upgraded from there.  However, this time, I wanted to try a new locating method to keep down some of the sloppiness  associated with a stand hole that's bigger than the stand stud and the resulting rocker stand fretting.  The heads were setup with TimeSerts in the stand holes and then the bottoms of the rocker stands were counterbored so that we could fit bronze bushings inside.  The bushings were reamed to fit the stand studs and this locked in the entire rocker assembly.  Fretting disappeared and lash stayed constant.  I will use this option for future Tunnel Port head setups as converting those to T&D paired rockers can be excruciating.

IMO, both of those points were fitting for a "dyno mule" and I'm pleased with the results.

I was mainly interested to get down to the pistons and bearings.  I didn't expect much considering how clean the tops of the cylinder heads were and how clean the filter was, but it's always interesting to see what's been going on. 

When the heads came off the first thing I noticed was that all 8 pistons had been giving the heads a slight smooch on the quench pads.  I purposefully built the engine with a tight quench, with the pistons being .005" above deck and using a 1020 head gasket.  That's a .036" piston/head clearance and even though the piston was so tall (1.920" compression height) and the piston/cylinder clearance was set at about .0035", the piston obviously still rocked considerably.  Considerably enough that there was a nice ring around the top of each piston where the carbon had been knocked off.  Piston #4 apparently liked the head a little more than the others, as it apparently had been tongue kissing the head instead of smooching. 





I pulled the timing cover and dropped the oil pan.  That's a fun little task with the engine sitting on the cradle, but once the pan is sitting on the floor, I was able to unbolt the pickup and slide everything forward.  The timing chain didn't lose any tension and once the entire timing set was removed, the cam thrust plate was inspected and showed no signs of anything being amiss.   The camshaft came out and a first look at the cam bearings showed a clean bill of health there as well.  FWIW, I do not "clock" the cam bearings, but just line up the holes in the bearings with the oil feed hole in the mains.  With 680 lbs of spring pressure and a regular old F-33 bearing, everything looked absolutely great.  I think a lot of guys don't actually check cam bearing clearance, so they don't know when something is actually tight.  Even though a cam bearing is more forgiving, a tight cam bearing clearance will wear just like a tight main or rod bearing.

A quick rotating torque check on the short block showed a very smooth 7 lb-ft result and then I started pulling rod bearing caps and pushing the piston/rod assemblies out. 

When I had listed each dyno iteration on the dyno results page of this forum, I had listed that the rod bearings were coated.  That was an error on my part, as the rod bearings were not coated, but were just plain-Jane Federal Mogul "non-race" rod bearings.  Rod bearing clearances were setup at .003", as is my SOP with factory FE rod journal diameters.  The bearings looked great and if it weren't for the fact that I need doweled bearings (more on that later) I would just coat them and reuse them.  Keep in mind that there were no "oiling mods" done to this engine except for the oil pump mounting flange hole being blended in.  Nothing was drilled out or opened up.  All gallery plugs were converted to pipe thread and since the drain holes in the lifter valley were plugged, the drains to the rear and front of the valley were opened up. 

Piston skirts looked great and the pistons were removed from the rods so that I could ship the rods up to Nightmist66 after he bought them. 

Removing the crank was also fun.  I pulled all the middle main bearing caps (bearings looked fabulous, will reuse them), then put a box under the crank and then slowly dropped the front and rear caps.  Once the crank was sitting on the box, I used an engine hoist and picked everything up off the crank. 



Ok, so for future plans....

I dropped the block off yesterday to be baked/tumbled/blasted and will take the block down to bare bones again.  New pistons are coming in from my boys at Racetec in a 4.060" bore to fit the new aluminum rods, so the block will be bored/honed and the other machined surfaces will be touched up.  We will be going to a satin black scheme instead of a '66 Ford Blue scheme next time, so the guys saying that a solid lifter FE should be black will leave me alone.   ;D

The crank won't need anything except rebalancing with the new rods/pistons.

The rods are brand new aluminum rods from R&R and I had them drill some FE rod bearings for me so that they would work with the dowels. 



The cylinder heads will also be freshened up and I'll be upping the valve sizes from 2.08/1.6 to 2.160/1.65.  No other needs there, no valve spring changes, etc.  The same intake adapter/tunnel ram will be used and my only plan there is to change to an offset cup lifter so I can have a little more pushrod clearance.  I used 3/8" diameter pushrods, but it would be nice to be able to run a 7/16" on the next iteration. 

I will be using the same camshaft as I've always used as it's proven to be the money-maker.   I did try another camshaft last Friday afternoon for giggles and it proved to not be as optimal.  It was just a last moment quick-change and used essentially the same camshaft duration and lift, but a 2° wider LSA.  It lost 20 hp and torque.

The new pistons will be domed to bump up the compression a little over 2 points and will feature .8mm rings.  In conjunction, they are also gas ported so that I can use a vacuum pump.  I don't quite think I'll hit 600 hp with the next iteration, but I'd like to get at least 575 hp out of her.  We will see.



« Last Edit: July 21, 2021, 08:44:30 AM by blykins »
Brent Lykins
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frnkeore

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Re: Teardown on the 352 and future plans....
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2021, 11:33:03 AM »
Are you running a oil restrictor in the block?

Will you send the heads back to JDC for bowl work, with the larger valves?

How much lighter will the rod/piston be?

BTW, I like the 2/1 rod/stroke combo. But, with all the changes, it will be hard to see if it does anything for HP/TQ.

Did you change your plans on putting TFS heads on it?

Edit:
It would be interesting to see what a 2° less split would do.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2021, 11:36:51 AM by frnkeore »
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Re: Teardown on the 352 and future plans....
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2021, 11:35:09 AM »
Cool report! Will the larger diameter 7/16" pushrods weight the same as the 3/8" ones? Looking forward to the next iteration/results. Good luck!
« Last Edit: July 21, 2021, 11:37:26 AM by Gaugster »
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blykins

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Re: Teardown on the 352 and future plans....
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2021, 11:44:31 AM »
Are you running a oil restrictor in the block?

Will you send the heads back to JDC for bowl work, with the larger valves?

How much lighter will the rod/piston be?

BTW, I like the 2/1 rod/stroke combo. But, with all the changes, it will be hard to see if it does anything for HP/TQ.

Did you change your plans on putting TFS heads on it?

The majority of the time, I oil through the pushrods, and on a solid cam, I always restrict oil to each lifter gallery.  A hydraulic lifter will meter the oil, but a solid lifter can pass a lot.  It's not about opening up the volume through the block, but it's about controlling the internal leaks. 

I plan to send the heads back to Joe.  I have the intake valves here, but need to order the exhaust valves, and who knows how long it will take with all the stupidity going on with parts.   He flowed them the first time, so I'd like to go back to the same bench for the follow-up. 

I'm not changing rods to change the rod/stroke ratio.  To me, rod/stroke ratios are meaningless and I never focus on them.  I'm changing rods to lighten up the rotating assembly and shorten the piston since I'm going to run a dome.  Nobody would make me a domed 1.920" piston without it being a billet and I really didn't want to *add* piston weight.  I don't have the pistons yet, but I think the rods are about 200g lighter each. 

To be honest, if someone twisted my arm and applied a slight bit of pressure, I would probably cave and sell the C6's and buy TFS heads.  But I am quite the underdog fan and doing all of this with factory heads is pretty cool to me. 
Brent Lykins
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blykins

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Re: Teardown on the 352 and future plans....
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2021, 12:07:54 PM »
Cool report! Will the larger diameter 7/16" pushrods weight the same as the 3/8" ones? Looking forward to the next iteration/results. Good luck!

The pushrods will be heavier but pushrod weight isn't as important as the weight on the valve side of things.  Rigidity is always more important there and even if there was a considerable difference in weight, it would still be a benefit.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2021, 01:15:27 PM by blykins »
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WConley

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Re: Teardown on the 352 and future plans....
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2021, 01:19:48 PM »
Cool report! Will the larger diameter 7/16" pushrods weight the same as the 3/8" ones? Looking forward to the next iteration/results. Good luck!

The pushrods will be heavier but pushrod weight isn't as important as the weight on the valve side of things.  Rigidity is always more important there and even if there was a considerable difference in weight, it would still be a benefit.

Ding! Ding!  We have a winner.  Rigidity is key for the rocker and pushrod system.  A little bit of weight added to the right places makes valve control a lot easier.
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frnkeore

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Re: Teardown on the 352 and future plans....
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2021, 01:29:51 PM »
Brent, thanks for getting back to me.

I asked about the restrictor, because when I suggested doing it, in the block, to my engines, everyone said to do it at the Head. I've since abandoned that and will plug it and use 1/8 tubing from the rear lifter gallery plugs to the stand. No bearing, oil leak, at all, that way and it's not hard to do.
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Re: Teardown on the 352 and future plans....
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2021, 04:52:41 PM »
Brent, thanks for getting back to me.

I asked about the restrictor, because when I suggested doing it, in the block, to my engines, everyone said to do it at the Head. I've since abandoned that and will plug it and use 1/8 tubing from the rear lifter gallery plugs to the stand. No bearing, oil leak, at all, that way and it's not hard to do.

I don't know, Frank.....tapping the holes in your heads and adding a little set screw sounds a lot easier/quicker.  I guess if you're bound and determined to find a different way of doing things, that's one way of doing it, but it seems like it's a long way around. 

When I don't oil through the pushrods, I just tap the feed hole in the head.  On most aftermarket heads, the hole is correctly sized for a 12-24.  On factory heads, a 5/16-18 tap will work.  I use a steel or brass set screw, drill the appropriately sized hole (or leave it solid if I'm oiling through the pushrods and use the set screw as a plug), then just screw it in.  Easy to change at a later date if you need to.  No need to pull the heads if you put the restrictor in the block deck.

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frnkeore

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Re: Teardown on the 352 and future plans....
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2021, 07:09:36 PM »
I guess, I didn't explained it, well enough.

No oil will flow to the head, itself. The oil will flow to a rocker stand on each side, D&T 1/8 pipe and fed with a 1/8" oil line from from the 2 cross gallery's at the back of the block. No oil will be bled off of #2&4 main.

Different, yes but, that's me :)
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Re: Teardown on the 352 and future plans....
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2021, 08:24:19 PM »
I guess, I didn't explained it, well enough.

No oil will flow to the head, itself. The oil will flow to a rocker stand on each side, D&T 1/8 pipe and fed with a 1/8" oil line from from the 2 cross gallery's at the back of the block. No oil will be bled off of #2&4 main.

Different, yes but, that's me :)

I would be concerned that you'd be bleeding oil off of the #5 main since the two lifter gallery offshoots are upstream of the #5 cam bearing, #5 main bearing, #4/8 rod bearings.  You're essentially just moving the bleed from one area to another, especially if you're not restricting that 1/8" line.  I suppose if you kept the rocker body clearances pretty tight it may be ok, but it doesn't take much oil at all to feed a bank of rocker arms. 

When I have to oil traditionally out of the head feeds, it's restricted down anywhere from .060-.080".  That creates more pressure upstream of numbers 2 and 4 cam bearings/main bearings. 

On the 352, I blocked both head feeds, oiled through the pushrods, and then restricted the oil going to each lifter gallery.   They were solid lifters, so I restricted them down quite a bit, but even on a hydraulic lifter, you can restrict the lifter gallery offshoots.   I've found that the lifter galleries (and lifter bores and even lifters themselves) are bigger sources of bleeds than the holes going to the heads. 
Brent Lykins
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Re: Teardown on the 352 and future plans....
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2021, 11:19:26 PM »
Cant wait for updates  :)

Is the block decked ??

Also, how many thousands block decking before ya see intake problems ??

What are the rod lengths ?? .. could only see 7.0 ... an perhaps the piston comp. height an weight if I may ask ??

To me an perhaps others, this is like when Jay started testin intakes an such ... an more...

Will pitch in if I can be of need



Ricky.






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Re: Teardown on the 352 and future plans....
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2021, 01:39:29 AM »
Brent,
Everything but the front main and the dist, is fed by the top main gallery.

 #2 & 4 mains, are fed with separate 1/4" feed holes, from that top gallery. Any loss of flow (rocker feeds and bearing clearance), from that feed, will create a loss of volume and pressure at that bearing if, the 1/4" hole volume can not keep up with it. The other 2 don't have that problem as even #5 is fed with a 1/4" hole. As you know, I also open the galley's to 7/16" all the way to the back of the block as, at least one other top FE builder does, to insure more oil volume threw out the engine.

The 1/8" tubing has a ID of ~1/16", just about right for the rocker feeds. Yes it will come off of the main gallery but, there is no other place to take it from, other than externally. I would bet that there is a lot less oil loss in the 2 tubes, than 32 push rod orifices that are fed from the same source.

I'm NOT knocking your builds, not at all! I just like to maximize anything I can on things I work with. Your builds work but, I like to do things my way, just as you do. That said, you can't improve something or learn anything if you keep doing the same thing, all the time, right? Just as you've done with cam timing with this engine.
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Re: Teardown on the 352 and future plans....
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2021, 03:51:58 AM »
Brent,
Everything but the front main and the dist, is fed by the top main gallery.

 #2 & 4 mains, are fed with separate 1/4" feed holes, from that top gallery. Any loss of flow (rocker feeds and bearing clearance), from that feed, will create a loss of volume and pressure at that bearing if, the 1/4" hole volume can not keep up with it. The other 2 don't have that problem as even #5 is fed with a 1/4" hole. As you know, I also open the galley's to 7/16" all the way to the back of the block as, at least one other top FE builder does, to insure more oil volume threw out the engine.

The 1/8" tubing has a ID of ~1/16", just about right for the rocker feeds. Yes it will come off of the main gallery but, there is no other place to take it from, other than externally. I would bet that there is a lot less oil loss in the 2 tubes, than 32 push rod orifices that are fed from the same source.

I'm NOT knocking your builds, not at all! I just like to maximize anything I can on things I work with. Your builds work but, I like to do things my way, just as you do. That said, you can't improve something or learn anything if you keep doing the same thing, all the time, right? Just as you've done with cam timing with this engine.

I know the desire to just try something new every now and then.  Otherwise, I wouldn't have spent time and money on a little 352. 

Part of the reason that I did the 352 this way was to show that oiling mods (speaking of opening and hogging out passages) are just not necessary.   I didn't drill out any oil galleries on this engine.  It's got a blended oil pump mounting hole and it has two restrictors.  As we've discussed in the past, drilling out holes and modifying galleries can often lead to cracks and openings that shouldn't be there. 

"Yes it will come off of the main gallery but, there is no other place to take it from..."  Exactly.  Taking it from the lifter galleries is just moving the bleed point around.  Dropping a .060" orifice jet down the feed holes in the heads would accomplish exactly the same thing. 

"I would bet that there is a lot less oil loss in the 2 tubes, than 32 push rod orifices that are fed from the same source."  That's why I restrict *before* the lifter galleries.  The lifters, pushrods, rockers, etc. are all restricted.  And on a hydraulic lifter, the oil is often metered through the lifter body itself.

My point is that a lot of "oiling mods" seem to be more of an exercise in showing off detail work, other than really being necessary. 

Now, if you told me that you just wanted to do something differently than what anyone else has done, then I would understand that.  However, if you're telling me that you NEED to open up all these passages, do this, do that, because it's necessary, then I'll probably have to disagree there.. 

Ricky, the block is indeed decked.  Usually at around 10.150" you can start to see a little intake mismatch, but the intake flanges usually need milled anyway because they're not straight or flat.  SCE has some nice .030" thick intake gaskets that I take advantage of.

The aluminum rods are 7".  I wanted to be able to use them with a 3.980" stroke crank if I so desired.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2021, 06:07:26 AM by blykins »
Brent Lykins
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Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
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502-759-1431
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blykins

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Re: Teardown on the 352 and future plans....
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2021, 03:59:55 AM »
Just as you've done with cam timing with this engine.

I wish I would have had opportunity to play with the cam timing but I was not able to due to piston to valve clearance issues.
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Re: Teardown on the 352 and future plans....
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2021, 10:52:02 AM »
Brent, do you think the RPM had anything to do with the piston kissing the cylinder heads ? Would’ve it hit on a 6000 RPM limit ?