Author Topic: Variable Flow Gerotor Oil Pump  (Read 5538 times)

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runthatjunk

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Re: Variable Flow Gerotor Oil Pump
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2021, 10:58:10 PM »
Good Luck!

looking at the internals of that vane pump vs yours looks like a no-brainer.  The Godzilla block looks awesome, but having that oil pump gives me the "what were they thinking" vibe; Especially for the super duty line. 
1965 390 Galaxie 4 Speed
1966 428 Thunderbird

WConley

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Re: Variable Flow Gerotor Oil Pump
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2021, 11:21:01 PM »
This would also be applicable to pretty much any ford distributor driven gerotor oil pump wouldn't it?

Absolutely  :)  I shiver to think, other brands too...

The obvious next step is to build a modern crank-driven pump with this technology.  It would be nice to partner up with a manufacturer for that effort.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2021, 11:28:19 PM by WConley »
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WConley

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Re: Variable Flow Gerotor Oil Pump
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2021, 11:24:49 PM »
Bill---
You are one of the reasons this site is worth so much. The quality of your thoughts is directly in line with what we have come to expect from Jay. As I sit here thinking over what I've learned from you over the years, I simply develop a big grin!

Go for it!!

KS

Ken - I really appreciate your thoughtful words.  This site is special because we are curious and not standing still.  We are also willing to share.  Who would have thought these old engines would be making such amazing numbers now??  Thank you again.  Your knowledge and insight has been a big contribution here!
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

WConley

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Re: Variable Flow Gerotor Oil Pump
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2021, 11:25:59 PM »
Good Luck!

looking at the internals of that vane pump vs yours looks like a no-brainer.  The Godzilla block looks awesome, but having that oil pump gives me the "what were they thinking" vibe; Especially for the super duty line.

I just need somebody with deep pockets to think like you do  :D
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

pbf777

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Re: Variable Flow Gerotor Oil Pump
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2021, 10:51:27 AM »
I can't get into too many details on how it works.................


     Are you still using the production m57 rotor & scroll, though perhaps modified "some"?      :-\

     And I'm perhaps grasping at straws, but might the tweak have something to do with a permitted change in the rotor to housing to end stop clearance or sealing (as compared against the otherwise flat cover plate); this not actually permitting any notable position change of the rotor, but allowing what might be termed an internal oil circuit rerouting, resulting in a change of the pumping capability?     ???

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So, flame away!


     Remember, you invited comments from the peanut gallery!      ::)

     Scott.

     

     

WConley

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Re: Variable Flow Gerotor Oil Pump
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2021, 11:17:39 AM »
Yes and somewhat correct. 

The details of how that is accomplished, providing a large and controllable pressure change while not aerating the oil, are pretty involved.  Those details are what I am applying for in my patent.

Basing the design on the proven standard gerotor set is important.  That lowers the bar for acceptance.
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pbf777

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Re: Variable Flow Gerotor Oil Pump
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2021, 01:01:53 PM »
      Just to throw something out there; decades ago we were involved in a racing program and had observed some of the difficulties with the then currently popularly engineered bypass executions both the in-pump and the remote types, and thus began working with a dry-sump oil pump system manufacture on other possibilities.  One we considered was using an additional port-plate (that found between the pump sections) opposite the normal one providing porting for controlling the directional flow though the pumping section, this opposing piece with different porting shape to provide say a pumping defeat factor on one end of the rotor while the other continued as normal but with a loss of the output volume and pumping head pressure.  We wanted this port-plate to be internally movable in rotation to be able to relocate the timing and area of the relief, and reactive to pressure just as the standard bypasses functioned (with mechanical spring & plunger), this creating variable area of exposure of the high-pressure side of the rotor to the low-pressure side all within the pumping section. 

     Although our goal was a little different from your current project as we were wanting a variable delivery volume at a relatively constant pressure with the concern of just attempting to solve typical by-bass ailments.  But all was for naught, as due to not enough effort on our part, not enough interest by others to participate, all to solve a problem most did not deem as being such.     :)

     Scott.


WConley

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Re: Variable Flow Gerotor Oil Pump
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2021, 02:25:56 PM »
Scott -

That dry sump system sounds like quite an undertaking.  The last few feet of the hill are always the hardest!  It would have been interesting to see that system work out.

Within a few months of starting, I had my first prototype pump.  Through almost miraculous luck, I had designed in a few "afterthought" features "just in case".  Those afterthoughts turned out to be the key to the whole thing.  The pump worked (somewhat) out of the box.  The next eighteen months were a mighty struggle to make it controllable with an adequate range of output.  The final result looks a lot like the first version, but the devil has been in the details.

In my experience, that's what it takes to make something really new.  Lots of sweat!  (If you look at my sig line below, you'll see what I mean.  There were plenty of failures to study with this pump along the way...)
« Last Edit: June 29, 2021, 02:31:39 PM by WConley »
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

pbf777

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Re: Variable Flow Gerotor Oil Pump
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2021, 07:08:21 PM »
 
It would have been interesting to see that system work out.
 

     In the end we simply chose to attempt to balance the pumping volume more closely to the requirements via changing the drive rates (remember external pump both dry & wet sump) and establishing an acceptable margin of by-pass in excess of the needs, this with the use of fluid flow meters in testing, and establishing driving rates of the pumps generally at ratios less than the standard 1/2 crankshaft speed.  This also required consideration in pumping requirements (leakage rates) within the engine, and less use of oil, when already pumping it, isn't always best, though generally when targeting the engine speeds of most interest, one often ended up with quite low pressure numbers at low speeds, particularly idle, but I have a few Detroit Diesels which operating appropriately will display 60+ P.S.I. at speed but only maybe 5 P.S.I. at idle, and the oil must traverse greater distance, their parts are far heavier, and firing loads quite greater, and they do just fine.  But by the same token, after say 12 to 14 gallons per minute at higher rotational rates, although the pumps manufactures will say is well within the capacities (area) of these positive displacement units (again "G"-Rotor @ 1.100" length) there begins to become apparent difficulties with cavitation at the inlet area the pump scroll/rotor void, this seems compounded in the longer rotor/scroll lengths (notice how the new high-speed crank-driven gear pumps are relatively shallow in length/thickness!).  But then this is not unexpected as the Caterpillar tractor for which this type of unit was originally designed for in the early part of the previous century didn't approach the speeds of applications as used in more recent times!      :)

     Scott.

turbohunter

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Re: Variable Flow Gerotor Oil Pump
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2021, 07:51:29 PM »
Congrats Bill.
Pretty wonderful stuff.
Marc
'61 F100 292Y
'66 Mustang Injected 428
'66 Q code Country Squire wagon


Henrysnephew

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Re: Variable Flow Gerotor Oil Pump
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2021, 09:35:53 PM »
Pure genius Mr Conley - the BEST version of anything is ALWAYS of the simplest in design.  Randy M

WConley

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Re: Variable Flow Gerotor Oil Pump
« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2021, 11:12:06 PM »
Thanks Randy and Marc for the props.  I love this place  :D

Now I have to figure out how to stop working for the man all the time, so I can spend more time on fun projects!  There are lots of things waiting patiently in the shop for me.
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

gregaba

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Re: Variable Flow Gerotor Oil Pump
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2021, 03:41:54 PM »
If you get this going and it looks like it will hold up in a street car i would be interested in trying one.
I won't be able to assembly my engine untill the heads are back in production again so looks like next year.
Greg

WConley

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Re: Variable Flow Gerotor Oil Pump
« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2021, 05:40:49 PM »
If you get this going and it looks like it will hold up in a street car i would be interested in trying one.
I won't be able to assembly my engine untill the heads are back in production again so looks like next year.
Greg

I think it's going to be awhile...  I'm looking to license this design to a manufacturer.  Until then I'm hand-building a few prototypes at a cost of thousands of dollars each.  Ask Jay how much money it takes to design and build stuff  :o :o

It's possible that an aftermarket pump builder will bite, and they'll become available.  We'll see!
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

machoneman

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Re: Variable Flow Gerotor Oil Pump
« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2021, 06:37:56 AM »
Great idea Bill and best of luck in partnering with maybe an OEM car manufacturer. After your great valve spring vids that were most enlightening, this one looks like a winner!
Bob Maag