FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: jayb on December 23, 2020, 09:52:35 AM
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My pal Steve the bodywork expert has been looking for a winter project this year, so I've struck a deal with him to do the bodywork on my 69 Cobra. He just took it to his shop on Monday, and it will probably be ready for paint in the spring. So now I'm looking at the exterior appearance of the car, and whatever options there may have been for that. The car was originally Ford's Candy Apple Red, and it will be repainted in that color. However, the car also has black on the center of the hood, the hood scoop is black, and the taillight panel is black. After carefully scraping some paint, it appears that the taillight panel was originally red. But I can't find any evidence of prior red paint on the hood, where it was painted black. Also, the underside of the scoop appears to have been red, but the top was painted black, and again there is no evidence of red paint under the black on the scoop. Pictures of the car as I received it are on the second page of this thread:
http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=2795.0
Looking online I see lots of different black and body color combinations, and also some that have no black at all. I also see a lot of cars with the tape stripe on them; I like that stripe, and am inclined to put it on this car. But if they never came with that then I'm not sure I'd want to do it. So, my questions are as follows:
- Was the tape stripe an option for the Cobras?
- Did the factory ever put black paint on any portion of the cars? If so, where? I see black on the hood, hood scoop, taillight panel, and also the grille of some of the cars pictured online...
- I also see a lot of the cars with the "Cobra Jet" script on the hood scoop, in addition to the 428. Was that ever done by the factory, or are those instances owner-installed?
Bear in mind that my car is an early car, built right at the end of 1968. It is a factory 428SCJ car, with the 4 speed and 3.91 Traction Lok, but it was built before Ford started calling them Drag Pack cars. Any info on this is appreciated. Here are a couple of pictures of my car, as I received it five years ago:
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/Torino1.jpg)
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/Torino3.jpg)
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Jay, Bob Perkins has or just sold an original Cobra like yours with less than 1000 original miles. Do a quick search and you'll see the car the way it was originally painted. There should be no black on tail light panel, hood and scoop should be factory car color. The scoop emblems were factory installed. Q code cars should not have a scoop and 428 emblems at front of front fenders. My first car was a black jade Cobra fastback and everything was painted car color, no black accents or black outs.
There would be some slight variation on options and some would depend on which plant built the car. There were 4 plants building Fairlanes in 69. I am far from an expert, but I do know these cars pretty well. Again, variations on options etc occurred all the time with Ford.
The Perkins car is a very good representation of how your car would have looked from the factory. The only black ever put on a hood of a 69 Fairlane was the Talladega.
Brian N
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A little more info. No tape stripe on car. If I'm correct, Drag Pack became an actual named option late in March 69. Before that, it existed by ordering 3.91/4.30 gears on a Cobra, Mustang, etc. I don't believe any were built until the oil pan problem was solved late Nov/Dec of 68. Many show an order date of Sept and Oct, but were put behind until parts became available.
Ford realized they were losing money on this package, thus it becoming an option at $155 dollars. Previous to that, you simply paid for the higher ratio axle, and traction lock.....about $70 bucks for both.
I hope I'm helping? Sweet car!
Brian
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Are you sure that is a Torino Cobra? Usually the Torino cars had a different grill. I disagree with the Q code not having a scoop, but they did not have the opening for ram air. My Fairlane Cobra was an early car also, and it had chrome snake emblems on the front fenders behind the wheel opening, and a chrome 428 cobra emblem on the right side of the tail-light panel, hood pin lanyards, and 428 chrome emblem with chrome Cobra Jet script on the hood scoop. No black paint anywhere but on the grill lateral trim pieces. The early cars dual exhausts were curved down under the rear valence without chrome tips. Most Cobras had chrome dog dish hub caps before the Torinos were called Cobras, and the Torino Cobras became loaded with every option available instead of being lightweight performance oriented. As mentioned, unless you have a Marti report on your vehicle, just about any option you want can be added and no one will be the wiser. Joe-JDC
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I didn't think there was such a thing as a "Torino Cobra", fastback or otherwise.
It was a (Fairlane) Cobra, with emblems.
Did it come with staggered shock mounts? Hood pins?
https://youtu.be/jjYwLRPJIhQ
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In 69 the Cobra was a Fairlane. Body style codes listed under Fairlane section. This changed in 70/71. Yep, staggered shocks just like Mustang on 4speed only. The grille you have is correct, but Cobra grille's had center section painted low gloss black. It's also interesting to note that the very first few Cobra's used a Cobra decal similar to the 70 style. I was told that the emblems that replaced the stickers were not quite ready when production began.
I have the complete 1969 Ford ordering guide. If anyone would have any specific questions about options etc for any car/truck line in 69 I can help.
Just hope I am helping a bit.
Brian
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We've had this argument several times in the past. The first Cobras were Fairlanes, and sometime during the year, they became Torino Cobras. It is an established fact. Yes, the '70-'71s were all Torino Cobras. The Fairlane in 1970 was again relegated to cheap, affordable transportation, same as Falcon with the exception of the few that got R code 429s, and 4V Clevelands and ram air. Joe-JDC
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Thanks for all the responses. Sounds like it is a Fairlane Cobra, rather than a Torino Cobra, or maybe more correctly it is just a Cobra, because of course it did get it's own body code. It does have the rear staggered shocks and hood pins. A copy of the Marti Report and the build sheet, with the serial numbers blacked out by me, are below. According to the Marti report "Drag Pack" became a thing after February 20 1969. I always liked the "Super Cobra" on the build sheet.
It's a bummer about the tape stripe, but I'm going to put a stroked 427 in this thing anyway, so it's not going to be a stock restoration. Original engine is long gone (prior to 1975, when the previous owner purchased the car), the shaker assembly was sold off the car in the 1990s, etc. I think I might go with the tape stripe anyway. I'll say it was dealer installed... ;D
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/Marti for 69 Torino Cobra.jpg)
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/Build Sheet.jpg)
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Spirited discussion, but no argument going on here!
Happy holidays to everyone!
Brian
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I didn't think there was such a thing as a "Torino Cobra", fastback or otherwise.
It was a (Fairlane) Cobra, with emblems.
Did it come with staggered shock mounts? Hood pins?
https://youtu.be/jjYwLRPJIhQ
Thanks for that video, it does show the grille being blacked out, and also the Cobra Jet script on the hood scoop, next to the 428. It says it's a 1968 TV ad, so I'm thinking it would apply to my car. I like the blacked out grille, I'll probably do that to mine...
I wonder when they stopped with the sticker and started with the emblem on the front fenders?
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I like these cars and Joe is dead on the way they were i have looked at every one i could find and have had two of them.I have never seen the sticker on the fender just the chrome snake.
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... It's also interesting to note that the very first few Cobra's used a Cobra decal similar to the 70 style. I was told that the emblems that replaced the stickers were not quite ready when production began.
Brian
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Big Torino fan here too ! I used to cringe when people would sacrifice the drivetrain from a Fairlane/Torino to restore a Mustang , not that I don't like Mustangs it's just I put Torino's on the same pedestal as a Mustang , not below them
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I have a NOS set of the front fender decals..1970 Part number..Looks to me that it wouldnt be hard to relocate the word Cobra to the earlier position..Pretty sure I also have NOS Cobra emblems as well.....I drove a "Q" code auto many years ago...Nice car.
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Here's mine, 58k mile original.
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I used to own 2 Cobras, both R code fastbacks. To the best of my knowledge , Ford referred to them as just "Ford Cobra". There was no Torino or Fairlane designation anywhere on the car, and any factory sales brochures, including the 1969 Ford "Performance Digest", that I have or have seen , are they referred to as a Fairlane or Torino. On the registration paperwork, it just said Ford Cobra. The fact that Ford called the new 70-71 Torino performance model a Torino Cobra just adds to the confusion. The Cobra in 69 did use the Fairlane grill, not the Torino grill. The 69 Cobra was built to attract the same market as the Plymouth Road Runner, a low buck, bare bones mid size Muscle Car. However, the Cobra could be loaded with options as desired. My 2 Cobras were at opposite ends of the option spectrum. My first Cobra was a car I bought from a guy that worked at Ford Power Parts in California. I found it on a trip to Pomona, and was picking up some FE parts at FPP, and saw the car in the parking lot. It was quite optioned out, C6 automatic,PS, PDB, A/C, bucket seats , console, tach etc. My 2nd Cobra was very plain,4 speed, manual steering and manual drum brakes F&R, bench seat, steel wheels with dog dish hub caps. It also had a special order 6 digit DSO, according to the Marti Report, it was special ordered with Acapulco Blue paint, which was not a factory available color for a Fairlane or Torino, but was a regular color for a 69 Mustang. I guess whoever ordered the car didn`t want the darker Presidential Blue that was available on Torinos and Fairlanes. Regarding the Snake decals vs chrome fender emblems, both mine had the metal emblems, but I do recall seeing a Black Jade 69 Cobra with the snake fender decals , running around my area in the early 70s. As for the black paint, I have seen quite a few 69 Cobra fastbacks with flat black tail light rear panels, and hood scoops, but I can`t say that they came from Ford that way, or if they were painted black after the fact. Both my Cobras had flat black on the tail light panels, the blue stripper model had a body colored hood scoop, the gold car was black. Both had the small,rectangular "428" emblem, along with the chrome Cobra Jet script, I believe only the Q code engine cars had the larger "428" fender emblems, since they did not come with a hod scoop. Stangely, all 69 Torino GTs came with a hood scoop, even the 302 2 barrel, although only the R code 428 cars had the scoop functional. Both my Cobras also had hood pins. One odd option on my manual steering Cobra was the Rim Blow 3 spoke steering wheel. Considering how often I inadvertantly honked the horns on my 69 and 70 Mach 1s, that had power steering, I have to think the Rim Blow on a manual steering car must have been noisy in a parking lot! I sold both Cobras years ago, but I still have the Ford History 999 letter for the low option blue 4 speed car. Yet another car I wish I had kept!
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I suspect the hood stripe was someone trying to emulate the hood treatment such as the one used on my 69 Cyclone CJ where the hood scoop and peaked portion of the hood were painted the same color.I agree on the tail panel all original paint Cobra's I have seen were body color,I also agree with Joe on the hood scoop Ram Air automatically had the hood scoop of course,but the hood scoop was optional on any car without Ram Air,I've seen them with and without the scoop and have also seen non ram air cars with the scoop with and without the pie shaped cutouts under the scoop,I also agree that they were termed Fairlane Cobras early on and later Torino Cobras,this may have been due to the large Torino Cobra callouts on the quarter panels of the Nascar bad boys.Jay since yours is early enough to not be termed Drag Pak does it still have the oil cooler?I was always curious if that was part of the SCJ engine package or part of the Drag Pak,I've heard conflicting opinions on it.As far as the decal at the bottom of the front fender ads showed them but I don't ever remember actually seeing a car that had them so it may have been a very early production thing but then again maybe not.
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After seeing machyoungs Cobra I like it all one color, scoop and all. Curious if it also has the flat black rear panel.
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It's all body color. No Fairlane or Torino script anywhere. The only thing that I can find that says Fairlane on it is the tire inflation decal inside the glovebox.
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Perhaps also adding to the confusion, you could order a (Fairlane) Cobra which is a CJ car with hood pins, etc. or you could order a Torino with the 428 CJ engine option, no hood pins, Torino trim. I had a '69 Torino GT CJ formal roof. BTW, you didn't get much with the "GT" option. You still had to pay extra for bucket seats and console, for example. Both of which you would think would be standard on a "GT".
I think the turndowns were standard exhaust on all of them unless you had Sport Mirrors, like the Cobra. If you ordered that mirror option on a Torino, you got the straight chrome exhaust tips like a Cobra.
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Oooh! An AM radio and a rear speaker! 8)
Bet you can't wait to tune into some 70's rock, eh Jay?
Hah!
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Not that I can add much to this, but my 69 Ranchero Rio Grande has the blacked out grille, and stripe on the hood just like your Jay. The hood was blacked out in the center, as was the scoop. I know on those at least they did have the hood blacked out, they also had the lower black GT stripe.
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Jay since yours is early enough to not be termed Drag Pak does it still have the oil cooler?I was always curious if that was part of the SCJ engine package or part of the Drag Pak,I've heard conflicting opinions on it.
When I bought the car the oil cooler was gone, but the brackets that hold the oil cooler are still there, so I'm sure it came with one. Seems to me that the horn location was moved due to that also, although I'm not 100% sure about that. In one of the screaming deals of the last ten years, I picked up a complete oil cooler setup for the car, filter adapter, lines and cooler, in good shape for $200 from a local guy. Still searching for a shaker setup, and I'll probably have to get one of those fiberglass repro units when I get the car back together...
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I have an extra shaker scoop if you need one. I don't have the rest of the assembly. I think the scoop is from a Mustang.
Greg
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Jay you should talk to Mike Patnode his 69 Fairlane SCJ Cobra was one of the first to come off the assembly line. The exterior is still all factory original to this day. A true time capsule just the way he ordered it
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I also think I have a cooler for that car not sure on the lines a would have to look a little harder.
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Jay are you looking for a shaker or the non-shaker ram air flapper plate?As far as saying a Cobra is neither a Fairlane or a Torino is kind of like saying a Mach 1 isn't a Mustang.While I agree that it had its own body code like a Mach 1 or Cyclone CJ it doesn't change the fact that it is a version of the Fairlane or Torino just like the GTO was a version of the Tempest/LeMans and the Road Runner was a version of the Satellite/Belvedere.I do agree that the Cobras used the Fairlane grille that even carried over into the 70 models.The 70's were even more varied with the Fairlane,Fairlane 500,Torino,Torino Brougham,Torino GT,Falcon,and Cobras all being available sometime during the 70 model year.Sounds like the Drag-Pak was simply a gearset,speedo gear reducer if necessary,and the option of the Detroit locker.The relocated horn is a commonly looked for clue for the oil cooler.
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Jay you should talk to Mike Patnode his 69 Fairlane SCJ Cobra was one of the first to come off the assembly line. The exterior is still all factory original to this day. A true time capsule just the way he ordered it
I actually know Mike pretty well, and took a bunch of pictures of his car at a show a few years ago. But since his car is black I wasn't sure whether it would have gotten additional blackout features, like the taillight panel for example.
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Jay are you looking for a shaker or the non-shaker ram air flapper plate?
Sorry, I shouldn't have said shaker in that earlier post, my mistake. I need the ram air setup - air cleaner, lid with flapper, snorkel, seal, etc.
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If you can find a 67 390 or 428 T-bird aircleaner it has the base that can be made into a ram air base with minor fab work, converting from the smaller spotwelded snorkel to the larger bolt on snorkel,the 390 GT is the same but the holes with the screens are already too large.The filter lid is just an non chromed late 289 HP,the flapper plate is the same as all non shaker 69 ram airs,some late 68's also used it.The snorkel will probably be the single hardest part to find.If you get in a bind I have some extra stuff from my Cyclone I have one of the mentioned 67 T-bird bases,a flapper plate from a 69 Cyclone that has been painted that god awful med ford blue but I think the vacuum motor has a bad diaphram,I've got a couple Cyclone seals with the cutouts but I think I might have one of the full circle Fairlane seals too I'll have to check when I get back home.I'm in the same boat as you as far as a snorkel.I've also got some extra alt. and smog pump brackets and pulleys depending on which accessories yours has.Do you have the SCJ fan on yours?
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Jay, Bob Perkins has or just sold an original Cobra like yours with less than 1000 original miles. Do a quick search and you'll see the car the way it was originally painted. There should be no black on tail light panel, hood and scoop should be factory car color. The scoop emblems were factory installed. Q code cars should not have a scoop and 428 emblems at front of front fenders. My first car was a black jade Cobra fastback and everything was painted car color, no black accents or black outs.
There would be some slight variation on options and some would depend on which plant built the car. There were 4 plants building Fairlanes in 69. I am far from an expert, but I do know these cars pretty well. Again, variations on options etc occurred all the time with Ford.
The Perkins car is a very good representation of how your car would have looked from the factory. The only black ever put on a hood of a 69 Fairlane was the Talladega.
Brian N
Brian my 69 Cyclone CJ is also a black jade car.
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Merry Christmas to all!
The horn does not move on the Fairlane/Torino in 69 with Drag pack. They are fixed above and behind the headlamp bucket reinforcement brackets. Mustangs and Cougars had the drivers horn moved to the pass side.
The "ram air" air cleaner for a Fairlane/Torino/Cyclone was a virtual clone of the 68 1/2 Mustang CJ air cleaner.
Drag pack was more than deeper gears and an oil cooler. In 69 it amounted to 3.91/4.30 traction lock rear, oil cooler, lines, and oil filter adaptor, along with 428 engine mods, Lemans rods, modified crank, different harmonic balancer, external balance crank Hatchett weight, and different flywheel /flexplate. No Detroit locker in 69.
Things changed in 1970. You had Drag pack and Super Drag pack. Drag pack included 3.91 gears, Super Drag pack had 4.30 gears with Detroit locker. I had a 70 Cougar Eliminator optioned like that.
The SCJ/Drag pack fan; in 69 two fans were used. First was a 6 blade fixed pitch C90E-H, the other was the standard C9ZE-E 7 blade clutch fan common to all CJ engines. Seems they were mixed indiscriminately. If we look at Jay's broadcast sheet, looks like his car got the C90E-H.
I am not being "hardline" on this, or any other 69 Cobra starting out as a Fairlane. I was, and still would point out that regardless of how Ford marketed the car, the body style code for the Cobra fell under the Fairlane heading. The important info to Ford would have been data plate coding placing the car within a certain trim level. Learned about this Very well after working for Ford for 35 years!
All 69 Talladegas have a "63E" body style code. If we look at this, it tells us that the base car is a Cobra, again under Fairlane heading.
I have never seen a 69 Cobra with the blackout tail light panel. I suspect ( personally) that many guys saw the Mustang tail light panel blacked out, and did it to their cars? It was not part of the Cobra package and I've never seen it listed as an option or anything. But, again, Ford changed things at times.......I don't know?
The hood scoop seems to be a point of consternation? If we look at the order guide, no hood scoops were available for Fairlane/Torino as a "stand alone option". There were two ways to get a scoop; it was standard on ALL Torino GT's in 69. On the Cobra, you had to order ram air to get it. So, technically, a Q code Cobra should not have gotten a scoop. Having said all of that, Ford made changes, offered incentives and did things that were not updated in the order guide. I would be the first to suggest never say never.
I showed my wife the picture of your car Jay! I should not have done that.....she wants it! Lol
Brian
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If you go with the body stripe I vote for the gold color.
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Very good information Brian.
The only thing I can add is there is a slight difference between the "Cobra" mid plate and the 68 1/2 Mustang, but not enough to matter unless going concourse. There is a beveled section on the front that extends over further on the Fairlane/Torino midplate, versus the 68 1/2 Mustang that stops at the indentions. Link below.
https://www.428cobrajet.org/id-air-cleaner-68
As far as the fan, Jay's build sheet falls in line with what has been documented on SCJ Mustangs. The H fan was used on all 69 SCJ until March of 69. Then the 3.91 SCJ cars switched over to the C9ZE clutch fan, while the 4.30 cars continued with the H fan.
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Greg, great info, and yes, 428 Cj registry has a lot of good info on CJ's in general. Scott does a great job!
The fan, I think you are correct , Having said that, I think there are many discrepancies. I suspect Ford intended all SCJ car's to have the 6 blade C90E-H fan. But, would appear that in many instances that the C9ZE-E fan was substituted. Probably had to do with supplier issues........and the reality that the C9ZE-E clutch fan was appropriate.
Remember folks, Ford never shut down "ANY" assembly line unless a disaster occurred. Shutting down the line in any plant cost huge dollars. They would "alternate" things as necessary. For example, a 69 Cobra needed brown, pink, gold front springs which were color coded for assembly line workers. Maybe at the time a certain car came down the line, only 390 GT springs were available, can you guess what Ford would have done. Dollar/economically driven. My point, fans and many components were not installed until the car hit the line. Some sub assy's were complete, but not everything. A fan concern would have been a low priority.
Now, I suspect in most cases they did strive hard for every car to have exact correct components as ordered. But, probably not realistic. Quality control was not at the "high end" in 69 or many subsequent years.
Again, just hoping to help.
Brian
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Unfortunately, there are real discrepancies in builds, even my Marti report has at least one factor wrong on my Shelby. The rear gears on their sheet does not match the car, nor door plate. I know, because I bought the car new, still have it along with the rear differential tag. Joe-JDC
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Joe, I am agreeing with you! Every day brought something new to each assy plant. As I said before, never say never. There was a standard, displaced by reality!
Merry Christmas!
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Definitely agree guys. What we know now is just a "in most cases" point of view. My 68 1/2 has 3 anomalies itself that the "experts" will say are not correct for the car. No one size fits all with these old cars.
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Very good information Brian.
The only thing I can add is there is a slight difference between the "Cobra" mid plate and the 68 1/2 Mustang, but not enough to matter unless going concourse. There is a beveled section on the front that extends over further on the Fairlane/Torino midplate, versus the 68 1/2 Mustang that stops at the indentions. Link below.
https://www.428cobrajet.org/id-air-cleaner-68
As far as the fan, Jay's build sheet falls in line with what has been documented on SCJ Mustangs. The H fan was used on all 69 SCJ until March of 69. Then the 3.91 SCJ cars switched over to the C9ZE clutch fan, while the 4.30 cars continued with the H fan.
There supposedly were 3 variations used in 68.5 2 with the larger bevel and late ones used one basically identical to 69's,I think the earliest variation lacked some bead rolling that later ones had.Thats what I meant by the SCJ fan the fixed fan,I realize some used the clutch fan but I always think of it as the CJ fan.
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Royce and Hawkrod would be having a fit right about now...lol
I got tired of arguing with them and just gave up. My dad worked at the Lima engine plant for 30 years, and the same "anomalies" happened there as well. Sometimes there were running changes when parts dried up or were not available. Sometimes for a day, sometimes weeks, maybe just a few hours even, but it happened. That's the difference between 'theory'/'intent', and actual reality. Just don't mention W code Mustangs ;D
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Merry Christmas to all!
The horn does not move on the Fairlane/Torino in 69 with Drag pack. They are fixed above and behind the headlamp bucket reinforcement brackets. Mustangs and Cougars had the drivers horn moved to the pass side.
The "ram air" air cleaner for a Fairlane/Torino/Cyclone was a virtual clone of the 68 1/2 Mustang CJ air cleaner.
Drag pack was more than deeper gears and an oil cooler. In 69 it amounted to 3.91/4.30 traction lock rear, oil cooler, lines, and oil filter adaptor, along with 428 engine mods, Lemans rods, modified crank, different harmonic balancer, external balance crank Hatchett weight, and different flywheel /flexplate. No Detroit locker in 69.
Things changed in 1970. You had Drag pack and Super Drag pack. Drag pack included 3.91 gears, Super Drag pack had 4.30 gears with Detroit locker. I had a 70 Cougar Eliminator optioned like that.
The SCJ/Drag pack fan; in 69 two fans were used. First was a 6 blade fixed pitch C90E-H, the other was the standard C9ZE-E 7 blade clutch fan common to all CJ engines. Seems they were mixed indiscriminately. If we look at Jay's broadcast sheet, looks like his car got the C90E-H.
I am not being "hardline" on this, or any other 69 Cobra starting out as a Fairlane. I was, and still would point out that regardless of how Ford marketed the car, the body style code for the Cobra fell under the Fairlane heading. The important info to Ford would have been data plate coding placing the car within a certain trim level. Learned about this Very well after working for Ford for 35 years!
All 69 Talladegas have a "63E" body style code. If we look at this, it tells us that the base car is a Cobra, again under Fairlane heading.
I have never seen a 69 Cobra with the blackout tail light panel. I suspect ( personally) that many guys saw the Mustang tail light panel blacked out, and did it to their cars? It was not part of the Cobra package and I've never seen it listed as an option or anything. But, again, Ford changed things at times.......I don't know?
The hood scoop seems to be a point of consternation? If we look at the order guide, no hood scoops were available for Fairlane/Torino as a "stand alone option". There were two ways to get a scoop; it was standard on ALL Torino GT's in 69. On the Cobra, you had to order ram air to get it. So, technically, a Q code Cobra should not have gotten a scoop. Having said all of that, Ford made changes, offered incentives and did things that were not updated in the order guide. I would be the first to suggest never say never.
I showed my wife the picture of your car Jay! I should not have done that.....she wants it! Lol
Brian
Most of the things you listed as the drag pak are actually part of the SCJ engine package which predates the drag pak,ordering the drag pak automatically ordered the SCJ engine package which included the oil cooler,and engine mods,the only things unique to the drag pak are things I stated in my first post.My bad on the horn thing sometimes all this stuff starts to blurr together.As far as the hood scoop goes that could have added as dealer installed too,back then there was a ton of that going on so if someone refers to the term as delivered you have to have them specify as delivered to the dealer or the customer.That could explain why some hood scoops had the cutouts under the scoop and some didn't.From what I understand some dealers like Galpin Ford would install any thing Ford offered in their parts and accessory and muscle parts catalogs.
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427John, yes, lot's of variations on options, factory installed, owner installed, etc. Painting the car differently to suit an individual. Hell, Macco paint job in the mid 70's was around $100 bucks.
Drag Pack existed before it become a "stand alone" option. If you ordered 3.91/4.30 gears in a Mustang, Torino, Cyclone with a 428 engine, it really was Drag pack. And, it changed 428 CJ engine status to 428SCJ. The only reason that Drag pack became an option is that Ford finally realized what they were giving away. Prior to the option, you ordered higher ratio rear axle and traction lock......about $70 bucks. After 2/20/69 Drag pack as an option was $155. Decent amount of dollars in 69.
You folks all realize how 69 Shelby's were initially built, don't you? Crazy stuff.
Brian N
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427John, yes, lot's of variations on options, factory installed, owner installed, etc. Painting the car differently to suit an individual. Hell, Macco paint job in the mid 70's was around $100 bucks.
Drag Pack existed before it become a "stand alone" option. If you ordered 3.91/4.30 gears in a Mustang, Torino, Cyclone with a 428 engine, it really was Drag pack. And, it changed 428 CJ engine status to 428SCJ. The only reason that Drag pack became an option is that Ford finally realized what they were giving away. Prior to the option, you ordered higher ratio rear axle and traction lock......about $70 bucks. After 2/20/69 Drag pack as an option was $155. Decent amount of dollars in 69.
You folks all realize how 69 Shelby's were initially built, don't you? Crazy stuff.
Brian N
I was always under the impression that the SCJ was an engine package that included the oil cooler and internal mods,just like the Boss 302 and Boss 429,that if you ordered that engine it came with those,are you saying that if you ordered those engines that Drag Pack was also required or was it included?
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I always understood it just like Brian mentioned. If you requested the 3.91 or 4.30 gear you got the SCJ upgrades. In February of 69 they gave it a name and started charging for it.
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It is my understanding that the "Drag Pack" and SCJ are the same thing.Cant have one with out the other.If you ordered 3.91 or 4.30 rear ratio you were automaticly upgraded to the SCJ engine with the oil cooler...
To me saying you have a 428SCJ drag pack car is repeating yourself..
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Both Greg and 427fastback are correct, Drag Pack and SCJ are synonymous.
Boss 429's, Talladega, and to extent, Boss 302's are anomaly's. Both the Boss 429 and Talladega used the oil cooler assy. But these car's were not RPO's. They were being built to homologate the 429 engine and Talladega body for NASCAR. Ford had to get both of these car's/engine done quickly in hopes of racing them at Daytona 69.
Boss 302's were an RPO option. In standard form, the car received a 3.50 open rear end. But,you could order 3.91/4.30 gears for this car. It appears that both of those ratio's gave you the oil cooler on a Boss 302. However, the cooler for the Boss 302 is not stated in the order guide.
Ford did some strange things with mixing and matching performance options. It has also been stated that Bunkie Knudsen had a lot to do with the craziness.
Brian
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I was also under the impression that there were 68 SCJ's that had nothing to do with the 3.91/4.30 rear gears.Was the 70 429SCJ also tied to the drag pack,there is some confusion on whether the engine codes are for CJ or SCJ,or ram air or non ram air,I always thought it was ram air or non ram air like it was with the 428 but there are people that are sure it is for CJ/SCJ.
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There were 68.5 and early 69 cars that had 3.91 or 4.30 gears that did not receive the SCJ components. That is where Ford learned they had an issue to address. So along came the SCJ components in the September 68 timeframe.
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There were 68.5 and early 69 cars that had 3.91 or 4.30 gears that did not receive the SCJ components. That is where Ford learned they had an issue to address. So along came the SCJ components in the September 68 timeframe.
So the Cobra Jet lightweights weren't SCJ?I knew they had the Canadian heads and the C8AX-C cam but always assumed they had SCJ shortblocks.But now that you bring up the 69 model year thing,I remember now that I have some super marked 428 pistons.Instead of where they normally have the CJ cast in them these have the word super cast there,I think they also have a C9 part number cast on them,I'll have to take another look at them to verify the part number,that would corroborate the timeline you gave.
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I appreciate Jay rolling with this, kinda off topic, but fun regardless!
The 68 Mustang race car's, built in Dec, 67 were made so that Ford could go racing with the 428 engine. The 427 engine was expensive for Ford to build, the 428 much less expensive. Ford chose Pomona as the place to introduce it, with each car being given (actually sold very cheaply) to each team. These were really race car's, not an RPO option.
The CJ engine option became RPO in March/April 68.......which is why they are considered 68.5 cars. Yes, 3.91/4.30 gears were available, but not SCJ/Drag Pack.
There were no special engine codes to denote an SCJ apart from CJ in 69. Q code denotes non ram air, R code denotes ram air. As stated, early in the model year 69, the only way to get the SCJ engine, was in conjunction with ordering 3.91/4.30 gears....Mustang, Cougar, Torino,Cyclone. Later in 69 ( Feb, 69) this became known as Drag Pack.
Also remember the oil pan issue which delayed SCJ production until November 68.
428CJ pistons and the 428 Super piston has alway's been a source of confusion. There is no SCJ piston, CJ/SCJ were the same cast aluminum piston made by TRW. The early 428 CJ piston had issues in the pin boss area and would tend to crack. An updated part was released for production in Dec 68 to take care of this which is the piston cast as 428 super.
And yes, in 1970 Drag Pack and Super Drag Pack were available on the 428 Mustang's and Cougar's, as well as on 429 Torino's and Cyclone's.
Brian
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Concerning the 428 CJ piston situation, my understanding was that the earlier pistons were lighter, and as a running change , Ford changed to a slightly heavier piston, and these are the pistons that have "428 Super" cast around the pin boss. But regular (non SCJ) 428 CJs used this same piston. The 428 CJ in my 59 Ford is standard bore, and still is running it`s "428 Super" marked pistons, and it is a regular Cobra Jet, with a 1UB crank and 13/32" nut and bolt connecting rods. Despite misinformation over the years, the 428 Cobra Jet and Super Cobra Jet were indentical other than the SJs capscrew connecting rods, and the different crank, balancer/spacer/flywheel-flexplate which were needed to compensate for the heavier LeMans style rods. Same pistons, camshaft, intake, carb etc. No power difference, just a heavier bottom end.
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There has been so much misinformation on this over the years I can remember when it was believed that scj pistons were the lighter ones to help offset the extra weight of the Lemans rods,I knew about the cam,heads,intake and exhaust,there was nothing different on the production SCJ's to affect power production just durability upgrades.I had never heard about the problem with wrist pin bosses on the pistons cracking.I've always been surprised at how many 428's I've come across that have set of standard bore TRW forged L2303 pistons in them,and its not like they had been hot rodded everything else had been pretty much stock.I mean you occasionally find 390's with forged pistons too but they've usually been bored and had bigger cams or larger valves installed in the heads or some other kind of hot rod work.
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I always thought the later SCJ pistons were heavier. But regardless, they were a different weight and required a different crank in a SCJ engine. The 1UA was early, the 1UA "B" was later to compensate for the different piston weight.
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As far as the questions of the original post since there doesn't appear to be any consensus on the answer the bright side is that if you paint it all body color,it will be relatively easy to go back and add the blackout if necessary.You can look at it see what you think without it since you've already seen what it looks like with.I'm leaning toward doing the same with my Cyclone when I get it painted it came with the optional side hockey stick stripes,but being jade black with gold stripes,I'm not sure I'll like that much gold since the hood scoop and hood peak are supposed to be that color too.
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Hello Jay,
I have had to do some touch up on my 69 Cobra Grille for rock chips and such. Here is the paint that I use. It is a perfect
match to the original colors.
SEM Matte Black #49133 for the bars and
Dupli-Color Ford Silver Frost #BFM0341 (TS)
for the perimeter. The upper and Lower Lips are Polished.
Thanks, Brent
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Thanks Brent! I took the grille out of the car the other day and found that the grill sections surrounding the headlights were blacked out in the middle but polished on the perimeter lips. However, the center grille piece did not have any evidence of black paint. My guess is that it is a replacement, done prior to when I purchased the car a few years ago...
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Thanks Brent! I took the grille out of the car the other day and found that the grill sections surrounding the headlights were blacked out in the middle but polished on the perimeter lips. However, the center grille piece did not have any evidence of black paint. My guess is that it is a replacement, done prior to when I purchased the car a few years ago...
The grille blackout treatment seems to have been fairly commonly used in Fords performance models the 69 Cyclone CJ's used it too,it continued with the Cobra into later years also,and I believe with the Cyclone Spoilers too.
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Definitely agree guys. What we know now is just a "in most cases" point of view. My 68 1/2 has 3 anomalies itself that the "experts" will say are not correct for the car. No one size fits all with these old cars.
LOL. We went through that stuff with the 67 Mustang we owned at one time. 289/auto, nothing fancy. Not an early car as I recall, later in production. But the entire windshield washer setup was all 1966 parts. With the hood open you'd think "66" until you looked at the VIN stamp. Ford did whatever it took to move the cars out the door IMHO. I think I also have some 70 literature and as a Falcon guy, looked like the "Fairlane/Torino" line at that time was everything and the kitchen sink. They got pretty standard under the metal around 67. I could bolt 70 Fairlane sheet metal on my 67 Falcon, the chassis stuff measures nearly identical, if not exact. Anyone up for a 67/69 Falcon/Fairlane notch back 4 door? Ah, probably not.
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Oct.1968 HR magazine
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Hot Rod pictures were Ford promotion pictures, not actual production pictures of the cars. I never saw that Cobra sticker on the sides of the early cars, it came several months into the model year. I bought a new Fairlane Cobra formal roof, Ram Air, Four speed, when they first came out in 1968. Joe-JDC
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I didn't remember seeing any decals back then either, of course I don't remember too much from 52yrs ago LOL
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Thanks for all the responses. Sounds like it is a Fairlane Cobra, rather than a Torino Cobra, or maybe more correctly it is just a Cobra, because of course it did get it's own body code. It does have the rear staggered shocks and hood pins. A copy of the Marti Report and the build sheet, with the serial numbers blacked out by me, are below. According to the Marti report "Drag Pack" became a thing after February 20 1969. I always liked the "Super Cobra" on the build sheet.
It's a bummer about the tape stripe, but I'm going to put a stroked 427 in this thing anyway, so it's not going to be a stock restoration. Original engine is long gone (prior to 1975, when the previous owner purchased the car), the shaker assembly was sold off the car in the 1990s, etc. I think I might go with the tape stripe anyway. I'll say it was dealer installed... ;D
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/Marti for 69 Torino Cobra.jpg)
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/Build Sheet.jpg)
For what it's worth, mine was a Fairlane on the title. I don't remember when it was built, but it was a '69. Can't say about paint as it had been repainted before I bought it. I remember it had the Chrome cobra snakes on the side, and 428 cobra jet on the scoop. Very foggy, but I seem to remember it having aluminum valve covers. That's about all I can remember, except it would fly....and it got me hooked on FE's.
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Jay are you looking for a shaker or the non-shaker ram air flapper plate?
Sorry, I shouldn't have said shaker in that earlier post, my mistake. I need the ram air setup - air cleaner, lid with flapper, snorkel, seal, etc.
I may have one, I'll have to dig in the shop. I'll check later today.
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Jay are you looking for a shaker or the non-shaker ram air flapper plate?
Sorry, I shouldn't have said shaker in that earlier post, my mistake. I need the ram air setup - air cleaner, lid with flapper, snorkel, seal, etc.
I may have one, I'll have to dig in the shop. I'll check later today.
I checked, mine is the shaker scoop. been so long since I'd laid eyes on it I had forgotten.