FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: Keith Stevens on December 13, 2020, 12:01:46 AM
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Well, I know at the end of the day this should have been set up and done off the vehicle. I didn't screw up... Much. I am about .010 tilted to the front of the engine. The third stand doesn't want to slide down so... I considered gently bending the stud to the rear to get it back into alignment. Does anyone see an issue with that? The other option would be to bolt the assembly down, use the tower a guide. Re-drill the hole and put a helicoil into the Big-sert.
What say the peanut gallery?
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Sometimes mine rocker shaft assembly will slide on a little tight. I've had this with OEM and Edelbrock heads. I just keep all studs loose, drop the assembly on and then torque the nuts. The experts may chime in but I can't imagine that far out is an issue?
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Well, I know at the end of the day this should have been set up and done off the vehicle. I didn't screw up... Much. I am about .010 tilted to the front of the engine. The third stand doesn't want to slide down so... I considered gently bending the stud to the rear to get it back into alignment. Does anyone see an issue with that? The other option would be to bolt the assembly down, use the tower a guide. Re-drill the hole and put a helicoil into the Big-sert.
What say the peanut gallery?
Be very careful attempting to "re-machine" the Big-Sert. I'm uncertain of the exact alloy of those "carbon steel" inserts but it is not mild steel and don't even try to drill or tap with conventional tool steel tooling. The inserts can be removed with a variety of, so called, easy-outs (screw extractors) but most efforts to drill and/or tap are going to yield broken tools. My experience but, of course, your results may vary.
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Hello:
The small Time-sert is indeed a carbon steel. The Big-Sert is a bright zinc and my guess is it's not a hardened high-carbon steel. The kit comes with five inserts. I guess I'll mount one in my vise and see how it fairs with a drill and a tap. My only other option is to put the stud in and use a piece of tube to bend it a little bit. It's not off much, but enough to keep the assemble from sliding into place.
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If it’s close you may want to try installing the stud after the rockers are on, sometimes a way to cheat a little
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That's possible. My experience was with the Time-Sert, only . I purchased a pair of Blue Thunder heads and they employ "Time-Serts" in every threaded hole in their aluminum heads. The problem was after extensive prep work on the heads (welding, CNC, surface milling, replace valve seats and guides, and valve job followed by CC) I assembled the engine on my stand and attempted to install lifting sling, thereby, discovering that Blue Thunder machine shop had installed all 32 exhaust flange Time-Serts without seating any with the expansion tap. When I threaded the ⅜-16 bolts for the engine sling into the exhaust flange they seized after about 3 threads engagement. Since I didn't own the Time-sert kit at the time and without any previous experience I tried to expand the inserts with a high-speed steel tap=FAIL (seized and broke off retracting). I tried drilling through the reduced threads at the end of the insert that are finally expanded to lock the insert into the base material=FAIL (reduced ID grabbed the Ti coated drill bit and immediately broke it off). I'm painfully aware there are multiple examples of stupidity in this case study but when you are supposed to be on the dyno at 8:00am and it is already 7:30 when you try the first bolt in the engine sling, desperation kind of takes over. Anyway, I only wanted to prevent a similar set of circumstances from occurring in your case. Good luck.
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I would venture to say there isn't a single person here who didn't do something stupid because of time limitations. I had never heard of Time-serts until It was mentioned in my previous post. If Edelbrock wasn't so cheap I probably wouldn't be doing this now. Because the shaft stands are helicoil from Edelbrock you're already at a disposition if the thread fails. Had I simply had to put in a Helicoil I wouldn't be in this predicament.
I bought both sets of 3/8-16 Time-sert kits. The standard which has the thin-wall carbon steel insert and the over-sized version. You're forced into the over-size use because of the pre-existing coil. From what I gather the over-size is offered in aluminum or 303 stainless steel. They are magnetic and look to be stainless. I don't know enough about the stainless to know if they can be drilled and tapped. My assumption is that it is. Input here is certainly welcome.
I tapped the hole slightly off, so the .020 cant to the front is multiplied four inches up the stud. I noted when I tried to get the rocker shaft over the stud it made the rockers difficult to move.
I have a guide to use to tap leaving the #3 stud out and re-tapping the hole in the insert if that is possible.
I even considered just tightening the stud and using the 1/2" ID bottle jack handle and bending the stud aft enough to straighten it enough to get the rocker shafts to bolt down without jamming the stand one direction or the other.
Advice is certainly wanted in this situation. I do NOT want to take the head off.
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If it’s so far off that you can’t put the stud after the fact then you probably need to fix it, be careful with trying to bend it, all you need to do is crack that head
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Advice is certainly wanted in this situation. I do NOT want to take the head off.
I want to say I am not trying to be mean, just trying to help. I thought I remember reading in your other post, some one recommended pulling the heads. Well you didn't and now look where your at.
"re-tapping the hole in the insert", you can't.
Bending the stud, I wouldn't recommend that either, the stud would have to have the bend right at the head, if you could get the bend right where you needed it, which may even be in the threads of the stud or at least the very last thread to the shank of the stud, and that would weaken the stud for more than you want.
You may not want to take the head off, but now you have no choice, if you want it fixed correctly.
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I would be inclined to drill the stand a smidge oversize. The other three stands should sufficiently align the shaft. At least, that's worth a try.
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The only way that I can see, to deal with what you have, is to try to bring the thread axis back, close to true.
You can have a piece of 5/8 or 3/4 square stock drilled with a V drill for the problem location and the two rocker stand holes on either side 3/8 or better ream them 3/8.
The V (.377) drill needs to be used, because the tap is a little oversize and you want the other two holes to be a close fit to the bolts or studs.
If you do it that way and the tap can still pick up the first thread, it will true up the offset to some extent, it may not bring it totally true, but, it will be better and probably enough to get the rocker stands to slide on. Be careful and use lots of cutting oil. After the first couple of turns, go 1/2 turn at a time and back it up one turn. If you hear the tap squeak, STOP. Get another new tap and try again.
If successful, it will be at the expense of the thread fit though. I would lock tight that thread and do that, through the guild fixture.
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I only have one stud slightly off. I was lucky enough to be able to save the aft stud with simply a new coil insert. Because it's a large Time-sert it's not high carbon steel. It's 303 stainless. It also has enough material to drill and use a standard Heli-coil.
My line of logic here is that I can used the shaft with the stands bolted down and use the stand as a guide to either re-thread in insert at the right angle or to used use it as a drill guide and drill the hole straight with the stand and put a Heli-coil in the large Time-Sert. For those that aren't familiar, there are two kits for 3/8-16. the standard thin carbon steel and the larger version designed for holes that had previous repairs which is stainless.
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About 50 years ago, I tried to remove the bleeder screw on a '59 Austin Healey front caliper. (Cast iron) I broke off the bleeder screw and then tried to drill it out...
Then I did what I should have done in the first place. I was working at T&C Livonia and had friends in the tool room. I stuck the caliper in my pocket and went over to the plant. It was a Sunday night.
While I waited they did a 'Government Job' for me that required burning out the broken (hardened) EZ-Out, Drilling the location to take a piece of cold-rolled rod, sweat-brazing it in place, and re-machining the bleeder screw hole to take the new screw that I wanted in the first place. I went home, re-assembled the whole thing and drove the car to work the next morning. It's nice to have friends in the right place.
In the long run, you'll probably do less work if you pull the head and do the job right. (Unless you, too, have access to the tool room and...)
KS
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Well, good news. A whole lot of God's grace and doing the walk away and think.. Admittedly prayer as well. I picked up a new hood hung trouble light set from Summit Friday and it was finally at full charge. Upon closer inspection, the shoulder of the Time-sert hadn't seated all the way into the seat I cut.
I picked up three nuts and threaded them on the 9/16 bolt, tightened the bolt to until it jammed against the top of the insert. The insert righted itself and seated completely in the countersunk seat and leveled out. The studs were all aligned with each other the length of the head checked with the straight edge.
However, the one in question was just slightly forward-leaning about 1/16. I nutted the stud and bumped it twice to the rear with a 2lb hammer. It sets exactly where it belongs. 50 pounds of torque, no issue on the stands. I appreciate the time and ideas given.
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Alright !!
Ricky.
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Some days, the bear eats you, and some days, you eat the bear.
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Some days, the bear eats you, and some days, you eat the bear.
I honestly had started to prepare myself for the worst scenario. Head removal. I had just spent three weeks working off an on to install factory air that I had spent the last year hunting down parts for and restoring them. Because I elected to stay with R12 with the York compressor instead of the R134 being the R12 is about 25% colder.
I had a slight leak at the corners of the intake so I decided to deal with the intake before installing the compressor and brackets. That's what got me here.
Now to pull the evaporator box and change the heater core. Never ending projects..
Thanks again for suggestions.
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My '67 Fairlane has factory air. I changed over to 134 and kept the York compressor. I flushed the system, had the dryer rebuilt and set up for 134. I changed nothing else. Same hoses, same expansion valve, same condenser, same evaporator. Functions and cools just fine.
I have no complaints.
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About 50 years ago, I tried to remove the bleeder screw on a '59 Austin Healey front caliper. (Cast iron) I broke off the bleeder screw and then tried to drill it out...
Then I did what I should have done in the first place. I was working at T&C Livonia and had friends in the tool room. I stuck the caliper in my pocket and went over to the plant. It was a Sunday night.
While I waited they did a 'Government Job' for me that required burning out the broken (hardened) EZ-Out, Drilling the location to take a piece of cold-rolled rod, sweat-brazing it in place, and re-machining the bleeder screw hole to take the new screw that I wanted in the first place. I went home, re-assembled the whole thing and drove the car to work the next morning. It's nice to have friends in the right place.
In the long run, you'll probably do less work if you pull the head and do the job right. (Unless you, too, have access to the tool room and...)
KS
For a time if I needed something done I put it on American flight outbound to Tulsa or volunteered to fly a aircraft for heavy maintenance to KTUL.
I had a friend who was the engine shop manager. He would take things over to the machine shop and usually done in a couple of hours. Sadly, we no longer rebuild our own engines and I no longer have the access I did. The best part of the day was German food at Seigi's sausage factory. Did I mention I love German food and there is little availability here so if I have a layover in Chitcago there is always good Italian and German to be had there.