FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: 6667fan on November 11, 2020, 05:57:08 PM
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This decision could have been reached last year prior to face plating my top loader but the price tag scared me. Now having had difficulties at track with the toploader I have to wonder is it worth it to keep trying with it? I know many guys flog ‘em and have no problems but I feel like I’m gambling with it in a way that would not be the case with the 101A.
Anyone here have some experience with them in a street car? Obviously, I’m willing to put up with quite a bit to go quicker at track having already taking a perfectly good toploader and made it less friendly for street use.
Thanks
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I know a guy with 6 or 7 good Jericos. He might sell one of them.
Greg
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Six or seven? What, a former Pro Stock racer?
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I have not ruled out Jericos but it would have to be a DR4-4.
Thanks
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If you go with a G-Force you will most likely need a new driveshaft and possibly other modifications like mount etc. I'm a Jerico fan in a Ford because it's very similar to a Top Loader and basically a bolt it. I think I had to turn my trans mount backwards or something minor. Also, a DR 4-4 would be nice but nothing wrong with a DR 4 if you can find a good one. Try find one with Road Race sliders and you'll be able to downshift.
Not sure if G-Force does this but if you call Jerico with a serial number they can usually tell you a lot about te trans you're looking at and possibly history. You'll love either though at least at the track.
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I ran the older style Jerico DR4s in my Fairmont and 85 Mustang for 20 years , and I would still have the same Jericos, had Jerico made the wise (?) decision to deem the DR4 "obsolete", and chose to not supply replacement parts for them. I broke a mainshaft in the Fairmonts Jerico, and when I called Jerico to order a new one, thats when they said they were no longer going to make any parts for them. I was lucky that a buddy had an extra mainshaft, but Jericos decision to turn their back on all the racers who were using their products, I figured I would buy a G Force G101A, rather than reward Jerico by buying a DR4-4. Naturally, shortly after selling both Jericos, they changed their mind, and started making DR4 parts again! I did have to make a few changes to the car when I installed the G101A, like Dale said, I needed a new driveshaft, as the GForce was about 2 inches shorter than the Jerico (same 32 spline output spline though). Also, unlike the Jerico, the G101A has just the GM trans mount pattern and position, so I had to modify my trans crossmember, as well, unlike the Jerico, which had multiple shifter bolt holes to move the shifter position, the G101A has a single MoPar style shifter mounting provision. So to locate the shifter where I wanted it, I had to order a different shifter mounting plate and rods from Long shifters, which is part of G Force. Both my Jericos and the G Force had similar gear ratios, so performance didn`t change, the G Force seems easier to shift, but that may be due to my G Force has the later "Pistol Grip" shifter, where both the Jericos had the older style Verti Gate shifters. The G Force is a bit heavier than the Jerico, as well as having a slightly taller main case. I do like the fact that the G 101A has a "handcuff" to help keep the main and cluster shafts from spreading apart, especially in 3rd gear. I am very happy with the G Force, but if the parts problem never happened, I would have kept the Jericos.
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Rory, Jerico is now making parts for the older DR4's. I broke first gear in mine this last year, and had no problem getting a new gear. My DR4 is 20 years old now, and is the old style TOP/Bottom loader.
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Rory, the comparisons between the two transmissions is very helpful. The handcuff on the G101A is what drew me to it. Some of the “make it work” items are a concern however. I don’t plunk down 5K on anything so need to get this right the first time,(hopefully). It is good to hear for all the DR-4 guys that Jerico is making parts.
Dale, thanks also.
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If you go with a G-Force you will most likely need a new driveshaft and possibly other modifications like mount etc. I'm a Jerico fan in a Ford because it's very similar to a Top Loader and basically a bolt it. I think I had to turn my trans mount backwards or something minor. Also, a DR 4-4 would be nice but nothing wrong with a DR 4 if you can find a good one. Try find one with Road Race sliders and you'll be able to downshift.
Not sure if G-Force does this but if you call Jerico with a serial number they can usually tell you a lot about te trans you're looking at and possibly history. You'll love either though at least at the track.
Same here on going with the Jerico over the G-Force. I wanted something that could retain all the parts I had (Mark Williams driveshaft and stock crossmember). My Jerico has the clutch assisted sliders (not road race) and Vertigate shifter, and I can downshift on the street. It's not the smoothest downshift, but it goes into gear solidly if you rev match. I think the pistol grip would be easier to downshift because you don't have to reach over the shifter to pull up on the gate lever, but mine works for me. I love shifting at the track with the Vertigate, but I can't compare it to the pistol grip because I've never used one.
Either way you go, you will have to cut a bigger hole for the shifter. I posted about my Jerico installation in my Mach 1, so that may show you a couple of the changes you might have to make (link here if you want to check it out... http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=1803.75 ). I also had to notch my tran tunnel crossmember to make room for the straight shifter rods for the V-gate. Not sure if it's necessary on a Fairlane, but I would expect that it's pretty close.
I bought a used DR4-4 because of the lack of parts for the DR4, but wasn't aware of their change of heart on producing parts. I had the opportunity to buy a used DR4 at the same time, for a better price, and wish I had now, just as a back-up to the -4.
You will love it at the track.
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Rory, Jerico is now making parts for the older DR4's. I broke first gear in mine this last year, and had no problem getting a new gear. My DR4 is 20 years old now, and is the old style TOP/Bottom loader.
Both of my Jerico DR4s were also the older top & bottom loader magnesium case versions, the one behind the Fairmonts FE was a early 6 lug model which used regular Toploader input bearing, the trans behind the small block was the "superior" later 10 lug larger bearing model. Funny thing is, all the years I ran the older trans behind the FE, the only transmission breakage I had was 3rd gear, which cost $300. to repair. With the 10 year newer "improved" design, with less power, less weight, and less clutch pressure, I had a $1700. incident, when 3rd also broke, but the broken teeth got caught up in between the gears, which caused major damage (case ,top cover, several other gears, and knocked much of the snap ring groove of the input shaft). It was the later transmission that later broke the mainshaft. Even still, If Jerico had not discontinued making the parts, I would have stuck with them, as stuff does occasionally break, and I accept that. And between the 3 breakage incidents, I doubt that I spent more on all those repairs, than an automatic guy would have, over the time (20 years with the Fairmont , 14 years for the Mustang) , with similar performance . Plus I was able to sell each Jerico for roughly what I originally paid for them. I am glad that Jerico decided to continue to make parts again for the DR4, unfortunately it was after I had already sold both my Jericos.
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Rory, the comparisons between the two transmissions is very helpful. The handcuff on the G101A is what drew me to it. Some of the “make it work” items are a concern however. I don’t plunk down 5K on anything so need to get this right the first time,(hopefully). It is good to hear for all the DR-4 guys that Jerico is making parts.
Dale, thanks also.
I had been encouraged for years to make the switch to a G101A for years, by a local MoPar racer who races a mid 8 second SS/AH 68 Hemi Cuda, as well as a SS/D 71 Hemi Cuda that ran mid 9s, and also was raced well into the 8s with a 540 inch B1 Wedge engine. He was breaking his Jericos constantly before he made the switch to the G Force. And he considered the "handcuff" a significant benefit. That said, although the G101A likely has more inherent strength, I think the old DR4 is perfectly adequate for mid 9s in a 3200 pound or so car, with a properly setup race clutch.
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Rory, the comparisons between the two transmissions is very helpful. The handcuff on the G101A is what drew me to it. Some of the “make it work” items are a concern however. I don’t plunk down 5K on anything so need to get this right the first time,(hopefully). It is good to hear for all the DR-4 guys that Jerico is making parts.
Dale, thanks also.
I had been encouraged for years to make the switch to a G101A for years, by a local MoPar racer who races a mid 8 second SS/AH 68 Hemi Cuda, as well as a SS/D 71 Hemi Cuda that ran mid 9s, and also was raced well into the 8s with a 540 inch B1 Wedge engine. He was breaking his Jericos constantly before he made the switch to the G Force. And he considered the "handcuff" a significant benefit. That said, although the G101A likely has more inherent strength, I think the old DR4 is perfectly adequate for mid 9s in a 3200 pound or so car, with a properly setup race clutch.
Peter Wille? Did he convert the 71 Cuda to Super Stock now?
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Doug, I was hoping you would chime in. I actually was going to pm you about your street driving impressions. Thanks!
All, I let a message with David Kee this a.m. to give me a call about a DR4-4 as he is a Jerico dealer.
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Doug, I was hoping you would chime in. I actually was going to pm you about your street driving impressions. Thanks!
All, I let a message with David Kee this a.m. to give me a call about a DR4-4 as he is a Jerico dealer.
My tolerance level for putting up with what others would consider 'not fun', is pretty high. I know some guys say they can get whisper smooth shifts by rev matching on the street, but I've found that it's really hard to get it perfect, and I don't like the thought of burring the sliders and dogs up any more than necessary, so I double clutch. It's really smooth and quiet that way. It takes a split second longer to double clutch, but it's only an issue if you have a bunch of anxious drivers behind you.
When I downshift, I try to rev match best I can and then pop it into the lower gear as fast as I can. That keeps the engagement quick and doesn't allow it to clash or grind. It still makes a pretty good 'clunk' as it engages, but that's just the nature of the transmission without road race sliders or synchros. Most people would cringe at this point.
If somebody wants a smooth experience on the street, I wouldn't recommend a Jerico or G-Force without road race sliders. Do I have any regrets about putting mine in? Hell no, I love it. I'm sure if I were sitting in a traffic jam during Drag Week, I'd probably ask myself why the heck I did it, but I know that feeling would disappear the second I was on the track. I can live with that just fine...lol
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There is nothing whisper quiet about a trans with straight cut gears and dog faced sliders. LOL. Jerico told me 20 years ago. The harder you beat on it, the longer it will last.
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Rory, the comparisons between the two transmissions is very helpful. The handcuff on the G101A is what drew me to it. Some of the “make it work” items are a concern however. I don’t plunk down 5K on anything so need to get this right the first time,(hopefully). It is good to hear for all the DR-4 guys that Jerico is making parts.
Dale, thanks also.
I had been encouraged for years to make the switch to a G101A for years, by a local MoPar racer who races a mid 8 second SS/AH 68 Hemi Cuda, as well as a SS/D 71 Hemi Cuda that ran mid 9s, and also was raced well into the 8s with a 540 inch B1 Wedge engine. He was breaking his Jericos constantly before he made the switch to the G Force. And he considered the "handcuff" a significant benefit. That said, although the G101A likely has more inherent strength, I think the old DR4 is perfectly adequate for mid 9s in a 3200 pound or so car, with a properly setup race clutch.
Peter Wille? Did he convert the 71 Cuda to Super Stock now?
Yes, Peter used to run the Cuda in SS/D, then put the B1 engine in the car several years ago. He has had a new Ray Barton Hemi to put in the 68 SS/AH car for quite a while, and was going to put the Hemi from the 68 into the 71 , with the correct "Street Hemi" components switched over. But when I talked to him a few months ago, he is so busy with his MoPar collection and his own engine dyno, neither car may see the track anytime soon.
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There is nothing whisper quiet about a trans with straight cut gears and dog faced sliders. LOL. Jerico told me 20 years ago. The harder you beat on it, the longer it will last.
No kidding.. Kill the engine and put the clutch in and you'd swear the trans is toast. Both my Jerico's are Mag case top and bottom loaders and the one in my car hasn't had the cover off in more than 5 years. I did break parts in my first one and after the second time I know why and it involves the guy pulling the stick. The handcuff idea is good but not worth the $$ if your budget is tight and you're not running a big tire car into the 9's. I also use the clutch on the gear change which many don't. Also no 3rd gear burnouts with a Jerico will lengthen it's survival rate.
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Rory, the comparisons between the two transmissions is very helpful. The handcuff on the G101A is what drew me to it. Some of the “make it work” items are a concern however. I don’t plunk down 5K on anything so need to get this right the first time,(hopefully). It is good to hear for all the DR-4 guys that Jerico is making parts.
Dale, thanks also.
I had been encouraged for years to make the switch to a G101A for years, by a local MoPar racer who races a mid 8 second SS/AH 68 Hemi Cuda, as well as a SS/D 71 Hemi Cuda that ran mid 9s, and also was raced well into the 8s with a 540 inch B1 Wedge engine. He was breaking his Jericos constantly before he made the switch to the G Force. And he considered the "handcuff" a significant benefit. That said, although the G101A likely has more inherent strength, I think the old DR4 is perfectly adequate for mid 9s in a 3200 pound or so car, with a properly setup race clutch.
The difference between Peter and most mortals is he has almost unlimited $$$. Trans in the car, spare in the trailer and at least two getting a rebuild. He was also real tough on clutches where the rest of us get to go a season or more. The SS/D car is still on the "talking" board although has everything needed. Smart move there would be put a Liberty in the car.
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I found a guy who will build me a DR4 with the input I want and gear ratio of my choice. I’m considering this route over buying a new DR4-4. As I have two Ford top-loaders with the big input I’m planning on staying with that for any Jerico I end up with.
Next question will be which first gear ratio to go with. When I was discussing a 101A with G Force /Long they spec’ed 3.17 for my car. (I told them my goal was to get car into the 10s). Doug Smith shared his favorable opinion of the 3.19 in his car and that is the direction I’m headed unless I get talked out of it, (thanks, Doug). Even IF that low gear is a short for the Street I don’t care. It would be just one more street use compromise on the path to making car quicker.
I would love to hear about that gear choice and if I need a top/ bottom loader case Jerico vs a round bottom one.
Thanks much.
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With your 4.57 gears, you will be at 14.487 gear ratio in first gear, and that is way too deep for any street usage. Like several others have indicated, you will be quicker and faster with around 11.0-12.0 ratio in first gear. JMO, but I had 4.57 gears in my Mach I, and ran 10's with 2.64 first gear. Joe-JDC
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My car is lighter than yours but I think the 3.19 is too much. My first trans is a 2.98 which is what Jerico suggested and the other is a 3.03 just because that's the way it came. Currently have 4.57 rear gear with 28 or 29" tall tire. Have also run a 4.86 but I'm out of RPM now as it is. I like the flat bottom case mostly because I can set the trans on the floor jack to help me get it in place.
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JB, I feel you should be able to accomplish the 10 sec pass as-is. If you get your shifting problem sorted out, it should be in the bag. Your speed is already there. If you get a good launch and decent shifts, then I don't see why you can't do it. I'm wondering if the interlock pin is broken or missing. Very small, but very important piece. Anyway, the Toploader in my beater was gone through shortly before I bought it. I swapped the guts to my case and tailhousing, just because I liked them better and the shifter location I needed on my tailhousing. The trans was in a car that ran somewhere in the 9's. I don't think I will have any issues with my goal. The only thing that will possibly cause me an issue is the aggressive clutch. Some will say the Toploaders are only good for door stops or wheel chocks, but some people could break a bowling ball in a sandbox.
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Supposedly the round bottom Jerico case (top cover only) is stronger than the top & bottom cover versions, which does made sense, since the bottom is solid. That said, I have never had any case issues with either of my top & bottom DR4 cases, other than the time broken parts got caught between the main and cluster gears, but that is hardly regular stress load. As for gearing, if you have the traction, more gear should always get the car moving quicker. On both my Jericos, as well as the G Force, I used 3.19 low gears, along with 4.88 and 5.13 rear axle ratios. My Fairmont normally runs 13" wide slicks, always dropping the clutch at 6000 RPM or higher. My 85 Mustang ran the same trans and axle ratios, with 9" wide slicks, but with a weaker small block, but both cars left well, best of 1.29 60 foot in the Fairmont, 1.34 in the Mustang. My first Jerico came with 2.93 low gear, switching to 3.19 helped the launch , and the wider ratio drops never hurt the performance anywhere down the track.But if traction is an issue, a lower first will just make matters worse. Both my Jericos, as well as my G Force, use the popular 1 3/16"x18 MoPar Hemi spline input shafts, with Ford length and pilot sizes.Since I did not have a big spline Toploader clutch fork , it made sense to use the MoPar spline, as it allowed me to use a small input fork and throwout bearing, as well as free up a little room inside the bellhousing.
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Jared, I did a test where I put the trans in second via the shifter and then went under car and attempted to move third or fourth gear and switched the test with putting trans in third via shifter and attempted to move first or second via the shifter arms. I could not move arms in either test which tells me interlock pin is intact. I considered draining oil and would have if interlock test failed. Third gear shifter stop was a little tight, don’t know if that is responsible for trans not staying in third. No problems with it staying in third on the street but street speeds are not the same as the speed at track plus tire spin occurs on street tires. I don’t feel like I can keep trying it at track, even with clutch pressure reduced. The toploader has to go. Maybe the Liberty face plated third gear is off center, just don’t know.
Rory, I might have a chance to grab a G Force with a 2.92 first. I don’t have enough passes on the car to really speak to traction problems so don’t know if a low first like 3.17, ( G Force), or 3.19, ( Jerico), will help or hurt me.
Thanks much guys.
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With your 4.57 gears, you will be at 14.487 gear ratio in first gear, and that is way too deep for any street usage. Like several others have indicated, you will be quicker and faster with around 11.0-12.0 ratio in first gear. JMO, but I had 4.57 gears in my Mach I, and ran 10's with 2.64 first gear. Joe-JDC
When I bought my used Jerico, it already had the 3.19 gear, and it was used in a FE Fairlane drag car. I already had the 4.30 gears in the car and was still having a terrible time with traction with the 2.78 toploader. With the Jerico change, I picked up 4 mph and went from a best of 12.28 to 11.51 on my first full 1/4 mile pass. That's a 13.7 1st ratio (Jared, I misstated my 1st gear ratio in your 1/4 mile post). It also made taking off at stop lights much easier, so I don't believe that a 14.4 is "way too deep for any street use". If anything, it saves a lot of clutch life during street use. Sure, you're shifting into 2nd quick, but once the car is moving, it's a non-issue.
The Jerico may have masked some of my traction issues, and it may not be ideal for my current combo, but the car gets off the line without issue now. It may not be the ideal gear for JB either, but it will make a big difference, and he can always change his rear ratio as time and money allows. Or he can simply get a new 1st gear set. You have to start somewhere. Of course if he were buying new, he can spec whatever 1st gear he wants. For $2000 less than new, I can live with the 'compromise' for now..lol That $2000 can buy me a lot of gear changes.
SS and class racer guys can spend the money to fine tune their combo to a perfect state, but most of us are just making changes as money allows, to make our car better, or more fun, and are far from our 'ideal' set-up. I've noticed that there can be a LOT of different gearing combos, in similarly built cars, that basically run the same ETs. That tells me that, given good traction, and gearing that puts you where you want to be at the finish line, a cars ET is basically set by its horsepower and weight.
I've rambled on long enough ::)
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Doug, HP & weight mainly determine the MPH not the ET. The ETs drop as you get closer to optimum setup, but MPH can pretty much remain the same. Many dual purpose street strip type cars can be over a second away from their true potential due to compromises, bad choices, poor setup, or driving ability.
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You're absolutely right, Rory. I had my brain in reverse when I typed that ::)
I was surprised when my MPH went up with the Jerico change (+4 mph). The only thing I can attribute it to is that the first 60' wasn't being wasted to tire spin or bogging.
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I work on a liberty shifted Chevelle super T10, 10.99 car, it has a 4.33 and a 3.43 1st for 14.85 or so. It gets quicker and quicker the lower the launch and 1-2 shift RPM
Tore the ear out of it and scared him, so he stopped for a bit but it was wild, 3000 launch, 4500 1-2, then 6500 2-3 and 3-4.