FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: gregaba on June 05, 2019, 04:19:53 PM
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Hi
After 2 months my machine shop called today and said they could not align bore my 428.
I had it at another shop and they lost my main caps so I bought a set of used caps from a member here.
My question is what would prevent the shop from align boring the block?
I guess I will have to find me another standard bore block or use my 406.
Greg
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They couldn't tell you why? I bought cross bolted caps because the machine shop lost them several years ago and there was no issue. Perhaps they are incompetent? There seems to be a lot of that going around with machinist lately. The ones that know what they're doing are retiring or deceased sad to say. The good ones are far and few between these days.
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No on the phone he said his guy worked on it all night last night and couldn't do the job.
I will pick it up tomorrow of Friday depending on the weather and take it some where else.
I think I will let your machine shop in Tx look at it.
I hadn't taken my heads and crank assembly to them yet because I was waiting to see how the block turned out and the cost.
Greg
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Greg, I have an FE specialist that does GREAT FE work in Arlington. He just offset bored my new block and bored each cylinder to match the JE pistons, align honed and square decked it.
He has done some magazine builds as well. He has the cleanest machine shop I've ever been in and he does a LOT o work. He's anal and it's quality work.
-Keith
Charles Machine
2230 W. Division STE A
Arlington, TX. 76012
817.991.2038
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Thanks
I will call him in the morning.
Greg
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When you line bore you take some material off the caps so you have material to remove when doing the align bore. Problem with used cap from another engine is they can be off a good bit. Usually you try them all different ways to try and find a combo that is close. Having extra caps can help a lot here. Some shops have lots of spares, but some don't making it harder if what you supply is way off. That said you still can make 1-4 work just is more work to do. Now no. 5 on an FE can see being a problem if it is off side to side alot. Likely only solution on that be find one closer or use a new cap.
I'd say the shop told you what they did because they did not want to waste a lot of time on it especially if they already quoted you a price. Steve
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Hi Steve
They never said anything about needing extra caps but did mention the #5 main was their main worry. I have a bunch of extra main caps off of old builds I could have taken to him but I thought it would to have a set of matched caps.
I have a dial bore gauge and checked the mains torqued down and didn't notice any excessive out of round in any of them.
The only thing I was concerned about was the parting lines were just a little off on each one.
The reason I went to this race shop was the guys from the tv show Street Outlaws [who have a 20,000 sf speed shop in our small town]recommended them.
I should have turned around and went home when I saw that everything in their shop was GM.
I went online and was going to order a set of Pro Gram main caps but the owner sold the operation and I could not find any of them any where.
I really wish they had a good machine shop closer then a 4 hour drive from me.
Greg
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Greg, Tim Meyer at TMeyer Inc. here in Minnesota is working on making FE main caps available. He’s not quite finished yet, but if you are interested in an aftermarket main cap set you might want to check with him and see how close he is on the project. He mostly specializes in Cleveland parts, but he definitely has the FE caps in the works. I have no idea if that will solve your particular issue though. Here’s a link to his website:
https://www.tmeyerinc.com/
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Thank you
I will call him tomorrow.
Greg
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Something else just crossed my mind looking at this thread. You didn't wind up with an early set of caps with the early thrust bearing size. I'm more inclined to believe they just don't have the proper equipment and expertise. Charles' array of machinery is pretty impressive. He is an FE specialist as well.
-Keith
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Keith have you ever done an align bore and hone job? I have and facing the thrust surface is part of it, but used caps can pose a problem if they are off as not enough material to remove. Same problem with mis registration at the parting lines as everything come out of the caps. You don't want to be getting into the block side.
Machine shop can be a hard business to make money and not everyone wants to fix someone else's mess. The blame here is the shop that lost the caps and they should have made things right. In this case you need to find caps that are close or use new ones, otherwise your wasting a lot of time and risking screwing up the block.
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Keith have you ever done an align bore and hone job? I have and facing the thrust surface is part of it, but used caps can pose a problem if they are off as not enough material to remove. Same problem with mis registration at the parting lines as everything come out of the caps. You don't want to be getting into the block side.
Machine shop can be a hard business to make money and not everyone wants to fix someone else's mess. The blame here is the shop that lost the caps and they should have made things right. In this case you need to find caps that are close or use new ones, otherwise your wasting a lot of time and risking screwing up the block.
X2....you can't just make any set of caps work with any block. Over the years, when looking for blocks for builds, when someone says they have a nice block without caps, I will just pass on. Too much trouble to make it work out.
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Greg I'll give a BIG +1 for Charles Eller in Arlington, Texas. I've known him for more than 30 years and he's done excellent work on several of my FE's over the years. It might be a long drive for you, but I guarantee you it will be worth it.
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>I sorry but are arrogant guys like you think they know everything give shops a bad name.
I don't see him being particularly arrogant about this. Consider:
>I had it at another shop and they lost my main caps
So we're 50/50 here on machine shops. So that's plenty IMHO to make someone that doesn't have block work done every week lose confidence in the process. I had a race shop in Houston do a set of 4V 351C heads for me, then had to have them re-done later because of the shitty bottom barrel guide and seat work done. And this was a nice shop with a row of aluminum hemi blocks with names like Densham, Force and such waiting for work. Yes, the first shop should have made right. But they also should have been competent enough not to lose critical parts from a customer's engine. There is zero excuse IMHO for that. If your internal handling process is that f'd up, what else can you not do right? As for the 2nd shop, they should have either said "pass" or given sufficient push back that "We can try, but here's the deal...". So now he's 2 for 2 on spent your money and didn't fix your problem.
Yes, it's hard to make a living in auto machine - because now most people don't use them. Most of the dealers work directly with their brand and get reman assemblies. Customer's that have driven their low end vehicles to the brink of rebuild typically don't have the $ to foot the cost of a engine rebuild, so the car goes to scrap. As noted, same here - all the old guys retired or left the shop on a stretcher and there are only a couple left. And those shops are running on well maintained older equipment. Except maybe the Raceshop boys up in Lubbock. But even with their $,$$$,$$$ in high end equipment they said "no can do" for a crank I need .001 taken off the rod journals.
There are very few reliable reference points these days and certainly not "social media". Around here it's just like food - some crappy looking shops turn out A+ work while some bright and clean, up to date places screw people over horribly. He now has a good reference to use, but before was on his own.
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Machine shops is a hard deal and a dieing breed. Is hard to say exactly what happened and some of these guys just no the best at customer relations. I'd hope the 2nd shop did not charge anything as they could not do the work.
Seems best find a referal, although sometimes that don't pan out either. All I can say is try to educate yourself as to what is needed and know the right questions to ask before starting with a shop. In this case really biggest thing is find caps that are close, mainly matching up at the parting line and on the thrust. If the op has a bunch of caps he can do this himself and then the shop just has to do the align bore not be wasting time. Steve
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Thanks for the back up referral for Charles Eller.
I haven't called him yet today as I want to pick up my block and see where I am on it.
Both of the machine shops I have used are race shops with good recommendations but I think the problem is that I am not a regular customer.
I am looking for a shop I can take all my work to.
They take care of the customer who spends the most money with them and put everyone else off and really don't care if they do quality work or not.
They have lost out because I do 4 or 5 engines a year and am just looking for someone who can do the quality work and not have to drive 4 hours both ways to get it done.
I was going to have them balance my engine and redo the new aluminum heads I have but now someone else will get the work.
The money wasn't a problem, I don't mind paying for good work done in a timely manner.
We used to have a great machine shop here owned buy a tool maker. He could fix about anything and was reasonable but disappeared about 10 years ago.
I am probably spoiled because of his great work.
As far as the main caps I will order a new set and go from there. I was looking for some Pro Grams last night but couldn't find any on the net.
I have several sets of used ones in the shop and will go about trying to find some where the parting lines match up but if not I guess I will order the Milodon set of 4 bolt caps or the ones from t meyer if he has any..
The block I have is a 69 and the caps I bought have the same casting numbers as my old ones did but still not sure if they are the right ones.
The first shop was just incompetent and since it is only 40 miles from me I have made sure all my mechanic friends have heard about them.
I called T meyer and he will call me back today.
I hope I answered everyone's questions but might have missed some.
Greg
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There are very few reliable reference points these days and certainly not "social media". Around here it's just like food - some crappy looking shops turn out A+ work while some bright and clean, up to date places screw people over horribly.
This is the absolute truth.
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Regarding the caps they all technically will work it is that the block and caps get machined together is where the problem comes in. Can always take metal away, but not so easy to add metal... Now are some caps made from nodular iron that where used on some hp stuff, but not sure can tell by casting numbers. Only difference is the nodular caps are stronger. If you can get some new caps the whole deal is a lot simpler other than cost. The tmeyer caps arestronger too.
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I am still waiting for t meyer to call back.
I hope he has the caps in production.
I didn't want to go to the extra expense because this is just a mild street build but I find that the more I go on this the more money I spend on power upgrades.
I guess I can go ahead and build a marginally streetable car as I have a lot of other cars to drive.
Greg
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If a shop lost my caps! Simple they had to get me another 428 block with caps
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Hi Heo
I tried but no go. They have a big sign on the wall that says Not responsible for lost or stolen part's.
Not only did they lose my caps but my new Hays aluminum flywheel, new Comp cam springs, locks and retainers, and ATI rattler vibration damper.
My attorney said we could take them to court but would lose because of the sign.
Greg
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I am still waiting for t meyer to call back.
I hope he has the caps in production.
Greg
Tim is not yet in production on those caps, but he is working on it. In fact I sent him a crossbolted cap and a #5 cap to look at and model last week. He does have his 351C caps done, and they look great - Jay
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Good to know.
I don't have to have everything together this year.
I won't be finished with my Ranchero until August or September so there is no real hurry on it. I would like to to have my engine together this year so I can concentrate on the body work this winter and have everything ready to go together next spring.
Glad I started on the engine this year because I would hate to have these problems crop up when I am ready to put the car together.
Greg
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Tim is pulling metal rabbits out of his hat up there for sure.
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Hi Heo
I tried but no go. They have a big sign on the wall that says Not responsible for lost or stolen part's.
Not only did they lose my caps but my new Hays aluminum flywheel, new Comp cam springs, locks and retainers, and ATI rattler vibration damper.
My attorney said we could take them to court but would lose because of the sign.
Greg
sounds like a license to steal. if I put that on a sweatshirt can I rob a bank?
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I got a set of pro stock engineering aluminum cross bolt main caps, #2' #3, #4. Never been used.
If your intrested.
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Hi Keith
How much and how do you get paid.
You can pm me if you want to.
Greg
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I am not up to date on these new aluminum main caps.
Will they be good for a street engine with may be 8 or 10 trips to the strip a year?
Greg
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I have never used aluminum caps, I got them in a lot of PSE parts and they just been setting around. I know of one set that's being used in a pro street type mustang with a 427 marine block and the PSE caps. Car sees maybe 250 miles a year. No issues so far. Other than that I cant speak as to how good or bad they are. They were mostly used in the drag race world. I'm just letting you know they are available.
Link to classified.
http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=7017.0
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Keith have you ever done an align bore and hone job? I have and facing the thrust surface is part of it, but used caps can pose a problem if they are off as not enough material to remove. Same problem with mis registration at the parting lines as everything come out of the caps. You don't want to be getting into the block side.
Machine shop can be a hard business to make money and not everyone wants to fix someone else's mess. The blame here is the shop that lost the caps and they should have made things right. In this case you need to find caps that are close or use new ones, otherwise your wasting a lot of time and risking screwing up the block.
You might have read the first response to his query. Charles Machine just completed the work on my new FE block. It states that the block was offset bored, align bored and square decked. Yes, I am VERY familiar with the process. There are TWO different thrust bearing widths on the FE.
I doubt the material would have been an issue. It doesn't take two months to assess the suitability and condition of five main caps for the job. I rarely find any production shop/rebuilder that knows anything about the FE. I have had the same issue here in NE Texas since I relocated from So Ca. There are a couple of great head people but I have only found one machinist who really knows his way around blocks and has all the machinery in house to get them done. Few are worth their salt when it comes to early Fords, especially the FE.
I absolutely find fault with a shop that SITS on a job for two months then tells you they can't get it done. Both jobs I had done were assessed before the block was left with the machine shop. There is no culpability on their part for a previous shop's incompetence.
Charles Machine took in the job I just had done on 28 May and it was done on 04 June.
We have some great builders/machinist that participate on this forum.
They are generally informative, helpful and very capable. The poster is within driving distance, so I recommended someone here who I have had do work that was competent, timely and fair. This is the second time this gentleman has tried to use a local shop and was screwed around and waited a ridiculous amount of time for a job which prompted him to pull his parts and take them elsewhere.
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Hi Keith
Thanks for the offer on the main caps. I would buy them but am concerned with how long they would last on a street motor. I will put about 10,000 miles a year on the car judging by my past usage.
I talked to Tim Meyer about an hour ago and committed to a set of his reproduction main caps.
I like his ideal of not drilling the side of the caps so you can use them as a 2 bolt with the option of making them into a 4 bolt.
No price yet and will have to wait about 60 or more days for them to be in production.
I have decided to use Charles Machine shop in Arlington Tx. but won't need to contact him until The caps are in hand.
I want to thank everyone for their help on this and may be I won't have to replace the block and I can save my 406 for the next project.
Greg
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Now worries at all, just wanted to let you know they were available. Good luck to you on your build. I'm hoping someone comes up with a #5 program cap. They were pricey but I shoulda got one when I had the chance. I have a couple sets of 1-4, (not for sale lol).
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Thanks for the good wishes. I am not worried about the build. I do quit a few every year but this is the first FE for me in about 25 years.
I wish I knew what I have forgotten about these engines.
When I was looking on the net the Pro Gram #5 cat was $465.00 but nobody had them or any of the other Pro Grams in stock.
Greg
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Greg:
When I get this on the stand and the bag off of it I'll shoot you some pictures.
-Keith
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Great
Looking forward to the pictures.
Greg
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that is no joke about all the old fe guys running machine shops are about gone.just recently a local machine shop in bristol tn shut down.s&g machine shops Larry Sneed has been the go to guy for fe stuff in this area since the 70s.im wanting to take my bbm heads for some work but i have no idea who to trust with them.
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That is the truth.
We used to have machine shops in every small town here in Oklahoma but now if you don't drive a Chevy then nobody can work on it.
I have the same problem on my new heads I need to get prepped.
I will see how that shop in Tx. does with my block and if the work is good I will let them do my heads and balance my assembly.
Greg
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My machinist just recently passed. His estranged daughter ended up with everything and guys are having a hard time trying to get there stuff back. Shes being a real bi**h and wont communicate with anyone. I have a torque plate over there I cant get back cause I cant prove its mine. Other guys have heads and short blocks and such. It's a mess. I'm just glad I didnt have anything substantial over there. His shop was on his property so that makes it even more difficult being she is the soul are and has control of it all.
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Wow
What a mess.
A torque plate still cost $300.00 so I guess it is good news that is all you lost and at least you didn't have a set of SOCH heads or a good block.
Good luck with getting your stuff back.
Greg
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Hi Heo
I tried but no go. They have a big sign on the wall that says Not responsible for lost or stolen part's.
Not only did they lose my caps but my new Hays aluminum flywheel, new Comp cam springs, locks and retainers, and ATI rattler vibration damper.
My attorney said we could take them to court but would lose because of the sign.
Greg
WTF....scumbags >:( >:( only way to solve this then is severe violence if that not helps
Ultra violence
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The good news here was when the guy running Eds Machine retired, he found a younger guy to take over the shop. Jason does real good work, nice guy and knows his stuff. And of course he's covered up. I see him at the strip once in a while helping customers. And - his girlfriend is also a machinist type and works with him. How about that deal. He keep his equipment in top shape and charges accordingly. But ask for ".012 off the top and take another .001 out of the bore for these pistons" and that's exactly what you'll get.
The down side - the shop is inside the city limits so he has to charge disposal fees to CYA his costs with the city. The way the city is about things, it's a wonder they let him keep running. Abilene is a small town that could get hammered if one or two big employers gave it up, but think's it's 5 times the size it really is.
At any rate, pickin's are slim these days. Jason does great head work, but after pricing out the basics for a set of 351C 4V heads, another $500 bought a set of new aluminum bare AFDs that needed nothing put valves installed. No porting, etc.
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Hi
heo
30 years ago the guy would be in the hospital and I would be in jail.
To old to fight now so I have to get my revenge by doing my best to kill his business. We live in a rural area with a lot of small towns of about 900 to1300 people.
Whenever I get a chance at a race,car show or swap meet I make sure to tell everyone about him. I know I have cost him a lot of business.
Falcon67
It must be nice to have a competent machine shop close to you that can does good work. Good that his girlfriend works with him.
I know about the cost of doing heads now. My heads for my 351C cost $900 to have them redone to my specs. That is why I went to Aluminum heads for the 428.
I wasn't going to go that route because of the cost but my mom dragged me to one of her estate auctions. She is 94 now so I have to drive her every where. At the auction I was sitting in the back bored out of my mind when I heard the auctioneer say some thing about new in the box aluminum heads. He had 2 sets up for auction.
One set for a 428 and one set for a 429.
I bid $300 and was the only bidder so for once I hit the lottery. Both sets new in the box complete heads.
I will still have to do some work on them so I can use them.
If Abilene kicks your machinist out I know of a building he can move into [LOL].
Greg
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Greg, thats why we old guys have Dynamite ;D ;D
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Good ideal but I prefer C4 or my M-14.
Greg
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I thought I would post an update.
Picked up my block today and when I asked the guy why he couldn't align hone it all he would say is I had a bad block.
His reason was the block was no good because I had the wrong main caps on it.
To say that I was a little speechless is a mild understatement.
I told him when I dropped it off the reason the the line bore was because I had to use main caps off another block.
The block came out of a 69 T-bird that was wrecked with less then 40,000 original miles on it so I know the block itself is good.
Sometimes I wonder where these guys went to school.
Greg
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That's just - sad. Sounds like your next machine shop stop will make for a better day.
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Thanks for the kind thought's Chriss.
I just finished putting the block on the engine stand and found out what they did.
It didn't look like they touched the caps or anything else except they tried to remove the block drain plugs.
It looks like they drilled though them and then used vice gripes to try to remove them.
I was saving that job for when I was ready to prep and clean the block, so now I have to drill out their mistake and it looks like I will have to tap for a bigger plug.
The funny thing is this is a highly regarded race shop here in Okla.
I used them in the 80's to do all the work on my outlaw late model and sprint cars and when the father was alive we all ways got quality work from them.
I guess this is what happens when the son takes over the shop.
Greg
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WTF Hope you find a shop where the use their head
for more than hang a hat on
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Wow Greg hopefully your next stop will be competent and trustworthy and get the job done. Just let me know if the caps are the issue.
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Good ideal but I prefer C4 or my M-14.
Greg
You old guys are grumpy and have hemorrhoids. ;D ;D At 53 I am starting to feel your pain. At least the grumpy "Get Off My Lawn Millenials!" attitude.
-Keith
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It looks like they drilled though them and then used vice gripes to try to remove them.
I was saving that job for when I was ready to prep and clean the block, so now I have to drill out their mistake and it looks like I will have to tap for a bigger plug.
They didn't get that right either? Dang, that's basic stuff - I have to do that with every block I start with LOL, not lol.
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After checking the mains yesterday I don't think there is any thing wrong with them.
I was just going with the shop told me on the phone.
There is all most no parting difference in them. I will get my bore gauge out and check them later today.
Oh well I guess I need the practice working on these engines.
I don't know why they were removing the drain plugs unless they were using them to take measurements off them for the align bore.
I am not a machinist just a shade tree mechanic but if I was a little younger I would enroll in a school and try to learn the basic's at least.
Greg
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Drain plugs have nothing to do with align bore. I am assuming they were going to clean the block too? Is standard practice to remove all plugs etc... when cleaning a block. Heat the plug with a torch until Cherry red and it will come out. If that scares you can drill it out almost to the threads then use a tap to clear out the rest. If it was drilled off center get it close then use a DreMel to grind out the rest.
As far as the main housing bore goes there is a line bore and a line hone which are two different procedures. Usually a block is just line honed to true up all the housing bores and bring them to size. An align bore is done when you have to take more than a few thousands off. Usually only need do that when fitting new caps.
Keep in mind not everyone can do everything. A lot of shops can do a line hone, but don't have the equipment to do align bore.
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If the head is still on it you can weld a nut on it and remove it with a socket.
-Keith
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Hi
For those interested I will post pictures of the fine work our Oklahoma premier race engine shop produces.
They were not suppose to clean the block because I haven't prepped it yet.
I still have to grind off the casting slag and clean up the inside of the block.
I would have heated these and pulled them when I finished the block because I knew they were rusted in like all of them.. Now it looks like I will have to spend a few hours to fix this.
Greg
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Here is the other side.
Greg
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Here is how i do it drill a hole in a flat bar and countersunk
and weld it to the bolt/plug/whatever. let i cool for a couple of minutes
and unscrew it
(https://i.postimg.cc/t4K4YSQN/thumbnail_IMG_4125.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xXP2ZPdX)
(https://i.postimg.cc/x1Jdjr7d/thumbnail_IMG_4126.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WdVVSysR)
(https://i.postimg.cc/bYgr39kq/thumbnail_IMG_4127.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/fk3MbX8P)
(https://i.postimg.cc/hv2GvKcX/thumbnail_IMG_4128.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/9wq2N542)
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Heo
Thanks for the ideal.
If my methode doesn't work I will give your's a shot.
Greg
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Drill it out almost to size and run a tap thru it. Holes look pretty centered.
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That was my plan.
Getting ready to go out and start on it.
I though I would drill it out real close and then try one of my left handed drill bits on it.
Greg
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Job is done.
The left side wasn't quite centered so on both sizes I stepped up though 5 drill sizes and was able to take a hammer and chisel and collapse the plugs into themselves. I knocked them out and ran a final 13/32 drill though the holes and retaped them to 7/16 x 20. I was able to catch a little thread on each hole so the tap job was easy.
Took about an hour.
Thanks for the ideals and help.
Greg
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My metod takes 15 minutes ;)
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Yeah Heo
but I am a glutton for punishment.
Greg
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I thought all block drains were 1/4" NPT? In that case, 7/16" is the drill size. Also, with a straight thread you may have a problem sealing it there and getting the plug tight with no taper.....
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These two plugs were 7/16. I don't know why they would be different but on my older motors they were 1/4 inch.
Hoping my thread sealer will seal it, if not I am not above using epoxy even though I hate not being able to clean the block the next time I build it.
Greg
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They are 1/4 NPT. Which is about 7/16. Just re-tap them for 1/4 NPT. If you want to use the O/E hex head plug they are available from AMK fasteners.
-Keith
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Thanks
Will do.
Greg
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Drill it out almost to size and run a tap thru it. Holes look pretty centered.
Yea, pretty well centered for using an ice pick the make the hole.