FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: HarleyJack17 on June 07, 2018, 04:32:44 PM
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I finally started on rebuilding my C6 to go behind the 445. I have not posted much, if at all here (mainly on the other forum before the change) but had a few questions for those that have re-built their own transmissions. What I am curious about is upgrades and differences.
By upgrades, would going to 4 pinion planetary be a "needed" move, along with sourcing an older longer splined rear hub. I purchased Ken Collins C6 rebuild dvd for some preliminary info and he mentions some of this. Simply put, what would you do and not do? I am not afraid to spend the funds if needed but would like to keep the budget at a minimum with the goal being reliability over heavily modified for all out performance.
Also, I am looking at the Broader Performance 500 HP rebuild kit and curious if anyone here has used it and can detail what exactly is different from a master rebuild kit? From what I read it allows stacking more clutches, servo, and shifting mods. Also curious if this kit or any, come with any of the bushings(not the thrust washers). I am completely new at it but not afraid to try.
I have it mostly torn down and should finish in the next day or two to start inspecting parts for wear. So far no real concerning sights but I have yet to open the pump up or separate the drive groups. Again, nothing looks too bad so far other than it being real nasty in the pan/fluid but there is still a lot to inspect.
The engine is my 445 that dyno'd at 487 HP /547 TQ. All going in my '75 F250 4x4 and use will be a driver/occasional romp on it type of deal. Plan is to go up to 38" tires from 35's but no bigger and keep the 4.10 ratio. So it's big, heavy, and running around a 3.60 final drive after larger tires.
Thanks for the input.
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FWIW, my own approach has always been to over-build. Having it but not needing it is much better than the other alternative---within reason. (I've decided not to put ultra-trick coated wristpins in my next engine build for instance. Maybe the next one after that. ;))
If you over-do so that a component fails, there's a chance to 'lunch' the whole works and have to start over. If you have a bit more than you actually need, you simply continue down the road and arrive at your destination.
Seems to me to be a good way of doing things.
KS
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I'm sure folks are tired of seeing this link.... but this was the build that is in my car.
https://www.facebook.com/pg/AirFuelSParkTech/photos/?tab=album&album_id=174252049980201
Scroll through the pictures as there is info in there.
Good luck
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Cammer, I tend to agree with your input but it is easy to spend a fortune on this quick and that point it would likely be more wise to buy a buikt unit with some form of warranty. Not looking to spend quite that amount of cheddar unless the fortune cookie says “you will be sorry for being a cheap a@@“ ;)
Drew; I saw your post on here(while back) and tried to look through it but had issues with pics...may have been my pc.. I will check out the FB link. I actually bought Kens Dvd based on your input on that thread and am happy with it, though I plan to get a manual prior to assembly/parts purchase. The trans is pretty straight forward just A LOT of moving parts. Thanks for the input guys and look forward to more info.
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Yeah, photobucket killed links of images so I moved all of it to my FB page so I could share. Either way, good luck, and lotsa folks here have an absolute ton of experience with c6's, so if ya hit a dead end be sure to ask the forum brains.
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I have rebuilt 2 C6's over the yrs. One stock and a modified for my 56 F100. It was fairly straight forward and the best advice I can offer is KEEP IT CLEAN! One of the dirtballs I had working for me looked at what I was doing and for some stupid reason left part of the assy uncovered, I was gone for the day when he did this, then started grinding nearby on a job. I came in the next day to find grinding particles in the case. Talk about pissed off. I had to disassemble the tranny and start over. He was terminated to say the least. My tranny in the 56 was built to handle HP& torque. A local buddy who worked at the local Ford dealer rebuilt it and gave me a list of OEM oarts to get. That build was Quite amazing. It held up to a 428CJ and then to a 427. Never a bit of trouble except for a bad tranny cooler line which was caught before any damage occurred. I retired it 10 yrs ago in favor of a toploader.
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i changed out my toploader 32 years ago,put in a c6 in my 428 comet.for the last 10 or 15 years i have been waiting on that c6 to tear up so i can put the toploader back in.it looks like its going to last forever.i dont want to do the swap till it tears up but it has done great for 32 years now.if they are done right it looks like the c6 is a tough trans!
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Broader prefers 3 planetary over 4 gears just based on rotational weight , both work fine and more than adequate
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This is the first transmission I have ever been into. I definitely can see the importance of keeping it "lab clean". A lot of fluid paths and working parts. Almost amazing how they work as well as they do. I am really surprised this one was working as good as it was prior to tear down. It was filthy outside and inside the pan but so far I have not seen any major damage.
Mr. Philpott, your comment on the gears is the input I was looking for...at the power level I am at, and intended use, what is sufficient vs. overkill/$$$. That is good info.
I guess my final thing to ponder is where or not to replace the thrust washers with "rollers" when/where I can without having to buy expensive new part sets/machining.
Thanks again
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Just do a #9 roller
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Agree - at least the #9 roller. I have a roller C4 and it does require several machining steps. Unless you are hammering on it constantly - like I do - regular thrust washers work just fine. You will want to increase clutch apply area (more plates & disks) in any build if you can. Not that familiar with the C6 but if the power flow is like the C4, your two things are 2nd gear servo apply and high gear clutches. In the C4 and C6 as far as I know, low/rev (forward) clutch is applied in all forward gears. 2nd is intermediate band apply, 3rd is band release/high (direct) clutch apply. That's where everyone fusses about "flare" - the transition time between band release and high clutch coming in.
And yes, as my friend way back that was a master Ford mechanic said "Just put it back together the way it came apart and it'll be fine". That said, power train end play and clutch clearances are critical to proper performance. Look into air checks for clutch actuation tests prior to final assembly.
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Example using a C4 -
Direct clutch air check with clearance
(http://raceabilene.com/kelly/hotrod/images/trans/C4rebuild/C4_rebuild_121x800.jpg)
Forward
(http://raceabilene.com/kelly/hotrod/images/trans/C4rebuild/C4_rebuild_114x800.jpg)
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I just finished a C6 for myself. Changed to all needle bearing , wide ratio , 5 clutch (CJ) high drum , kevlar band , aftermarket "R" servo , minimum spec end play etc. It was a pretty easy conversion and is MUCH easier to turn now. The low gear kit may be overkill but I bought the stuff in a "lot" buy of Ford Motorsport stuff years ago from a local Ford dealer getting out of racing parts sales.
I have several NOS Ford Motorsport parts I will post ( for cheap) in the classifieds.
Randy
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I finished the main tear down of the transmission last night. Anyone here know if the C6 for an F250 4x4 is different that the extended tail shaft version for 4x2 trucks/cars?
I ask because on the last drive hub, after removing the final planetary my info shows a snap ring holding the rear drive hub in(basically retaining the output shaft). That snap ring was not present. So after removing the planetary, hub, clutch snap ring and clutches I could, and did remove the output shaft and rear housing. I do not see what looks to be a snap ring groove in the output shaft either, at least not a square cut groove, maybe what I would call a tapered grove..nothing looks damaged there. The transmission has been into based on the marks in the case portion that retains the parking pawl thrust washer.
I did find it intriguing that the rear of the output shaft is supported by a large caged roller bearing. I suspected a bushing. Anyway, I figured I would ask.
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That bearing has a retaining ring holding in the bearing. Remove the gov and everything else in the way and it's easier to get to.
That style tailshaft is valuable to some off roading types.
The tailshaft and output shafts of c6's should be kept together and no problems will ensue.
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The snap ring that holds the rear planet ring gear hub is not used with the tail housings that have a brake drum (like an RV) and I think with the short tail housing used with a divorced transfer case. A roller bearing in the tail housing locates the tail shaft.
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1st Elim,
Thanks. I was scratching my head for a minute when checking what little reference material I have currently. Hopefully my manuals I ordered will be in soon. I could probably wing it with out them but I would feel more confident having some reference points.
Drew,
I have it all laid out in groups. I have easy access to large flat pieces of cardboard at work ;). The large bearing was a surprise as was the lack of snap ring.
Maybe it was just me, but has anyone ever noticed that when you pull the servo out it seems to act like a permanent reservoir for fluid. Maybe I have not quite figured out the workings but it seemed like that thing had the same fluid it left the factory with. Nastiest of it all and all other fluid had been drained.
Am I the only one that would put the i.d. tag back on? :o Too bad the PO scrapped it.
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Yes, helps to visualize the gear train LOL
(http://raceabilene.com/kelly/hotrod/images/trans/C4rebuild/C4rebuild_GearTrainWashers.jpg)
No, you are not the only one that puts an ID tag back on - if it was there in the first place. If it's a high perf thing with a billet servo, I put the tag in a drawer of the toolbox.
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Servo's and Accumulators always look nasty even when the rest looks fine and really nasty when you have one with clutches burned
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Here is an ASTG manual for the C6 - PDF found on the web:
http://shop.ukrtrans.biz/wp-content/uploads/catalogs/C6.pdf
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Thanks for that link Falcon! I guess not having "extra" parts has always been a pet peeve of mine...glad to see I am not the only one.
That little snap ring in your pick is exactly what had me scratching my head!
Definitely some extra wear on the clutches given all the crud in the pan and on the parts. Not looking forward to cleaning it all but it will be spotless when I am done. Hell it took me close to two days off and on just to get the mud off the case to see the aluminum! Think some of that Glyptal paint should have been standard issue on the driveline of these old Highboys! Bet I shed 500 lbs of caked on mud off of it since the start of the project.
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It's been a while since I've built a C-6. The new stuff keeps me busy. A couple things I'd recommend are 4 clutches in the direct drum, billet servo, Superior shift kit. I used to just drill holes and shim springs in the valve body. But, the Superior kit works pretty good and it comes with a heavy pressure regulator spring. Make sure there are no ring grooves in the governor support. Best bet with this valve body is to take out every valve, lay them out on a clean rag in order. Polish each valve. If you have a drill press, put the valve end in the chuck and use some scotchbright moistened with solvent to polish the spinning valve. Also polish the modulator and governor valves. If you have a flat sharpening stone, hone the mating surfaces of the v-b and gov bodies. I prefer the using the gasket in the C-6 v-b. Some people leave it out, but it comes in the kit, so I use it. With snap rings that hold in clutches be sure to position the ends of the snap rings under lugs----cover the snap ring ends. Chances are you will need a #4 or #5 selective thrust washer behind the pump. Worn C-6's always have excessive endplay.
Does this C-6 have a screw in or push in modulator? There are different color stripe modulators for C-6:
Black = gas
Purple = low vacuum
Green = diesel
White = screw in
If you have the screw in modulator and low vacuum from a bigger cam, you can use a Blue stripe modulator from an FMX.
Modulator pin length can vary: Whether the modulator is screw in or push in it should make contact with the pin and have about a 1/16" gap between the modulator and case.
It's after 11 and I'm still at the shop. I will try to think of some other points on getting the C-6 done on the first try. Sounds like a fun adventure.
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To expand on what Mark said about valve bodies and the use of the separator plate gasket, in the past I left them out on the advice of people I though knew better than me and had some shifting problems, among other problems, a low speed shift from 1st to second gear at 10-15 mph regardless of throttle position. I don't know if it was related to the lack of gasket or if it was a sticking 1-2 shift spool valve and it's circuit. It was not a throttling valve/modulator issue. Also it was not a governor problem as I went thru it before getting back into the valve body, checking all valves and their respective bores cleaning up minor scratches by spinning the valves in a lathe and lightly touching the surfaces with oiled 1000 grit paper backed by a tool steel flat bar to insure not rounding off the valve's sharp edges. I used the V/B gasket on reassembly and the trans shifted exactly as it should. It could have been a combination of problems but after that experience I always used the gasket [and the valve dressing procedure] and had no problems with valve bodies and shifting ever since.
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Thanks for the tips on the valve body and snap ring location guys. The trans has a push-in style modulator. To catch up from earlier posts, this is a C6 with short tail/fixed yoke. The F250 runs a divorced T-case. Definitely a few minor differences in it. Got my Ford Shop cd in today and will be digging through the info. Finished the tear down tonight. Hopefully over the next week or so I will get the parts groups disassembled and cleaned/inspected. Plan on posting a few pics as it progresses.
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Reviving from the dead...
Finished up the C6 last night. Once I have time to get all my pics together I will try to get the posted in the coming days. The main thing I want to show is the difference in this short tail version vs. the long tail. I know it had me scratching my head at first since it was my first and different from all info I had and could find. I also have some part numbers for it. I know most folks don't mess with old 4x4 trucks but it may help someone one day and save someone some time and heart ache.
It really was not difficult, just a lot of parts to keep up with...assuming it works :o Air checks and tolerance checks all came out good. Time to paint it and get it sat in the frame!
I do need to order a torque converter. Anyone have a company they recommend to talk to? Any recommend size/stall vs. stock.
Got the kit from Broader so thought about calling him first.
1975 F250 4x4 Estimated Weight 5,000 Lbs.
4.10 Gears on 35" Tires
445 FE 480HP/550TQ Peak HP about 5,600, Peak TQ around 3,600- Strong down low for towing. Link below...forgive the archaic look, I was in a hurry.
https://www.fordfe.com/imageproxy.php?url=http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o719/harleyjack1/dynochart_zps79dff701.jpg
(https://www.fordfe.com/imageproxy.php?url=http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o719/harleyjack1/dynochart_zps79dff701.jpg)
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I have "heard" that when you do the extra friction in the direct drum, leaving the wavy washer out can increase the chances of breaking the drum at the land.I haven't experienced this first hand, but then I haven't added the extra friction either. Any thoughts on this?
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Direct would be hard to break I would think.
It isn’t like the high/rev clutch that gets shifted. From the moment you put the engine in gear and the transmission in drive, the direct drum is engaged.
Same logic.... that is why the smooth clutches go in the direct drum.
Again, by the same logic... why bother putting too many clutches in the drum that is going to be prone to slipping because it isn’t shifted.
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when you leave a Wave Plate out and install a flat steel what happens is you just took the Cushion out of the apply so it will bang into the gear missing the wave plate …. I used to see this happen on Turbo 400's reverse gear when you replace the wave with a flat it will bang hard into reverse even at idle speed with low Pump RPM/Pressure …. the "Bang " is what can be hard on Parts
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when you leave a Wave Plate out and install a flat steel what happens is you just took the Cushion out of the apply so it will bang into the gear missing the wave plate …. I used to see this happen on Turbo 400's reverse gear when you replace the wave with a flat it will bang hard into reverse even at idle speed with low Pump RPM/Pressure …. the "Bang " is what can be hard on Parts
That's what I figured, but I was wondering if the breakage is theoretical based on that line of reasoning, or if anyone has actually had it happen.
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I have:
5 in the high/rev
5 direct, no wave plate
6 in low/rev
I have no clunk or anything going into direct. Of course with a high stall convertor, putting the selector in drive doesn't really do much, the car will creep perhaps, but slowly. In a stock vehicle, I could see a big bang as driveline parts are shocked.
Maybe other's have different experiences.
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The only time I see them come in is after someone elses rebuild , as long as the low gears ( 1 and reverse ) are proper it doesn't seem to be a noticeable Bang for the other gears , but if it's reverse or first it Bangs hard just going into gear and this is for all makes not just Ford and what my customers complain about , obviously common sense tells us that it has to be harder on driveline parts but myself have never seen a problem from it and the Demolition Derby guys want a transmission that slams into all gears including reverse for a spool and 5.14 gear with a 26 tall tire , lol
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I read where it was suggested to remove very other coil spring out of low / reverse for softer engagement
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I read where it was suggested to remove very other coil spring out of low / reverse for softer engagement
I think I saw that too, but didn't make the connection, good point. All good points here, Drew, yes, good point, a high stall converter will absorb most of the bang.
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So no recommendations on a torque converter, stall, etc? ??? ??? ??? ???
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So no recommendations on a torque converter, stall, etc? ??? ??? ??? ???
It may sound like a cop-out, but I would suggest you really need to talk to a converter company on this, the 5000+weight and tall overall gearing are well outside my experience, and realistically, probably most of the guys on here. That weight, combined with the tall gearing are going to make the converter "work"much harder on the street at part throttle than most of the stuff I mess with.
FWIW, I have an FTI in one of my vehicles and have been very happy with it, Andi I know they do some mud racer stuff, that may be a good place to start.
There's going to be a world of difference between a typical 32-3500lb street strip car with a 4.11-4.88 gear and a 28" tall tire like I am typically messing around with, and something thats 5000 lbs with 4.10s and a big tall tire like that. A converter that might couple up quite nicely at part throttle in a vehicle that weighs 3200 lbs and has 28" tall tires could be a slipping mess at part throttle in something that weighs 5000+ lbs with tall overall gearing.
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So no recommendations on a torque converter, stall, etc? ??? ??? ??? ???
What does the Cam Co. recommend ?? I couldn't find any Cam info in this thread
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I'm with FalconGeorge.
We can *guess* at what you need for a cam or convertor.
But I mean, guys do this all day everyday and are going to get you closer to what you want.
I'd suggest PTC or Broader Performance, as I've had highly positive experiences with both.
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Here is the cam info if that helps. Really was hoping someone would have a guess or recommendation so maybe I had a baseline to back up what I get from the companies. Any good brands, or some to stay away from may be good too.
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Here is the cam info if that helps. Really was hoping someone would have a guess or recommendation so maybe I had a baseline to back up what I get from the companies. Any good brands, or some to stay away from may be good too.
You were just given THREE recommendations for companies that do good converters...FTI, Broader, and PTC. If you are looking for someone to recommend TCI, that may take a while...
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Ok... an experience based suggestion.
The convertor in my car seems to stall around 3500 by the normal test. I dunno, I really don't care about the "stall" as long as it does what I want it to.
I have 4.30 gears with 28 inch tall tires, a GV overdrive, car weights 4000lbs, convertor tightens up nicely around 3,000 when at low throttle input, as I asked PTC to make it that way as that is where I cruise. Convertor doesn't really do anything in drive until I blip the throttle to 1200-1500, which is fine.
Camshaft is in the 240-250@.050 area in a 447ci FE. I run a trans cooler that is massive.... because I drive like an idiot.
When I called PTC I told them the cam specs, the gearing, car weight, engine size, anticipated torque, cruise rpm, tire size, and EXACTLY what I wanted out of the convertor. I think I talked to a fella named Lane. Nice enough guy.... I'd previously filled out a questionaire about all this, he was really just calling to confirm and chat a bit to make sure we did it right the first time. Took them a month to make the convertor, which he told me about up front.
My truck? Shoot, I dunno, I think it's an autozone special that I found in the dirt at a junkyard. 10 years and still tickin. I've got a spare 10inch convertor I keep threatening to put in the truck, because I hate fuel economy.
The real artistry in convertor design is not based around "stall" it is the inbetweens... To make that happen, it seems you need to give the maker a realistic expectation of operational parameters.
Anyway, good luck.
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"I" have a little different opinion in a NON RACE CAR situation regarding torque converters. Again race cars are different!
With modified engines my first priority is to idle in gear. Big cams usually hurt bottom end torque to the point where a stock converter won't work.
Next I try to keep the "stall" speed below "Highway" speed so the converter is "locked up" and not "slipping" which adds tremendous heat on a highway cruise , besides killing any hope of fuel economy as Drew mentioned.
Last I look at the diameter of the converter . Often a smaller converter will have more "natural stall" than a larger one so occasionally using a smaller diameter ( if available) makes things work.
When contacting a manufacturer "I" feel it's important for them to be totally familiar with what YOU are doing not just a drag race guy looking at a match in his companies catalog. Contacting a shop or company that does off road style builds FIRST for a recommendation like you have done here might be a better source of information. It's easy to say "use a 3,500 stall" but if you only need 2,800 you wasted money and if you got a 2,800 but needed a 3,500 the same goes.
Just my opinion.
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"I" have a little different opinion in a NON RACE CAR situation regarding torque converters. Again race cars are different!
With modified engines my first priority is to idle in gear. Big cams usually hurt bottom end torque to the point where a stock converter won't work.
Next I try to keep the "stall" speed below "Highway" speed so the converter is "locked up" and not "slipping" which adds tremendous heat on a highway cruise , besides killing any hope of fuel economy as Drew mentioned.
Last I look at the diameter of the converter . Often a smaller converter will have more "natural stall" than a larger one so occasionally using a smaller diameter ( if available) makes things work.
When contacting a manufacturer "I" feel it's important for them to be totally familiar with what YOU are doing not just a drag race guy looking at a match in his companies catalog. Contacting a shop or company that does off road style builds FIRST for a recommendation like you have done here might be a better source of information. It's easy to say "use a 3,500 stall" but if you only need 2,800 you wasted money and if you got a 2,800 but needed a 3,500 the same goes.
Just my opinion.
From what I understand, stall speed (let’s eliminate the external variables and talk in terms of K factor) is primarily a function of converter diameter and fin angle (there’s a LOT more to converter design than stall speed, but lets keep it simple for now) I am excluding all the external factors, like vehicle weight, rear gear, whether the car dead hooks or spins, ect, and JUST TALKING about the internal design features that affect k factor and I am not a converter expert by any means, I am just a guy who figures he should at least make an attempt to understand how the parts he uses actually work.
My experience is, for a given k factor, a smaller converter with more aggressive fin angles will work better in terms of part throttle lock-up characteristics than a larger diameter converter that generates the same k factor with shallower fin angles.
In other words, if you build a 8” converter with a 195 k factor and a 10” converter with a 195 k factor, the 8” will be better at part throttle. For instance, the FTI lockup I have in my truck, is rated at “4000 stall” and it’s on a 9.5” core, and it works well enough at part throttle that the only time I bother locking the clutch is on the freeway.
I would also guess that if I pulled this converter out of my 3200lb, 4.56 geared 28” tall tire truck, and put it in your 5000lb 4x4 with 4.10s and 36” tall tires, it would be WAAAAY loose at part throttle, due to the increase in the load it is working against. Even though the K factor has stayed the same, it would act like a completely different converter. This is why I am trying to tell you that getting a specific converter recommendation from a guy with a typical 3500lb street strip vehicle is worse that a waste of time, it’s going to totally screw you up.
I know I am repeating myself, but I am not sure if the op is understanding the point I was making earlier.
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Consult your converter company for sure but I would say your going to be somewhere around 2500-ish stall
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Consult your converter company for sure but I would say your going to be somewhere around 2500-ish stall
Totally agree, and when you talk about ending up around “2500 stall” that will mean that you end up with a converter with a lower K factor than what you would get with an off the shelf converter you see advertised on summit as “2500 stall”, due to the vehicle weight and tire size.
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I understand the entirety of everything discussed. What I did not realize is that the companies mentioned earlier actually make Converters...especially Broader(we sure about that?).
Thanks for the input fellas and I will reach out to a couple. I was only curious if anyone had any experience with a build similar and folks to stay away from. I think this is out of the ball park for most on the forum here in this regard but you provided me with some "quality" converter folks to contact so thanks for that and input earlier when it started.
The truck is just a basic truck other than the engine build. The old 4x4s were pretty big stock as far as height and tire fitment. With fresh factory springs a 38" tire will fit these old Highboys.
It is not a mud racer for certain, if it was it would pull a lot more RPM and definitely be running a different cam/intake combo and I sure would not have spent as much money as I have trying to redo stock items.
Just going to be my old school, every other daily driver and sleeper once done. Assuming axle hop wont be too bad and the cheap rear locker doesn't grenade if it hooks up. May surprise a few kids in a stop light race...but no way I am running it to fast...drums on all four corners, lack of modern braking etc....its a tank after all.
Anyway, thanks for the input.
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I understand the entirety of everything discussed. What I did not realize is that the companies mentioned earlier actually make Converters...especially Broader(we sure about that?).
Thanks for the input fellas and I will reach out to a couple. I was only curious if anyone had any experience with a build similar and folks to stay away from. I think this is out of the ball park for most on the forum here in this regard but you provided me with some "quality" converter folks to contact so thanks for that and input earlier when it started.
The truck is just a basic truck other than the engine build. The old 4x4s were pretty big stock as far as height and tire fitment. With fresh factory springs a 38" tire will fit these old Highboys.
It is not a mud racer for certain, if it was it would pull a lot more RPM and definitely be running a different cam/intake combo and I sure would not have spent as much money as I have trying to redo stock items.
Just going to be my old school, every other daily driver and sleeper once done. Assuming axle hop wont be too bad and the cheap rear locker doesn't grenade if it hooks up. May surprise a few kids in a stop light race...but no way I am running it to fast...drums on all four corners, lack of modern braking etc....its a tank after all.
Anyway, thanks for the input.
The reason I mentioned that FTI does a lot of stuff for mud racing wasn’t that a converter for a mud racer would be appropriate for your truck, I was more thinking that they deal in that market, and a lot of guys that do mud bogging also drive modified 4x4’s on the street, so Considering that they are major players in the mud racing field,it’s possible FTI also has some crossover experience in street driven 4x4’s, it’s a bit of a leap, but probably not an unreasonable assumption.
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FWIW here...Jay (Broader Transmission) absolutely does make converters...and much more. I’ve been to Jay’s shop many times and he’s a tranny guru with full fabrication capabilities and tranny dyno in his shop. Jay is a true craftsman who does amazing stuff with Ford trannys. He’s a one man operation...not a high production assembly line. He has extremely high ethical values and in my opinion under values his work. The custom tranny stuff I’ve seen him hand craft on his CNC is impressive. If you deal with Broader, you’ll get top notch products but keep in mind Jay is building everything himself so keep that in mind. If he doesn’t answer phone immediately, it’s likely cause he’s running CNC or tranny dyno, similar but he will follow up. He takes a lot of pride in what he does. Great guy.
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falcongeorge,
You are correct about converter sizing and stall speed. I do have converter experience . Large surface area ( big converter) is harder to make "slip" than a smaller area. Long ago converter modifiers bent fins and machined stators just like today. This would get 2500 out of a 12 " converter or about the same as a stock Falcon 10" ( if it would fit "out of the box") The stator machining done back then was helpful but really hurt efficiency ( lock up) . Marv Ripes out here in the west ( and some others) looked at a different way to machine the aluminum stators and gain stall ( literally fluid confusion) before the rpm created enough flow for "fluid lock". The blades of an aluminum stator look like a modified airplane wing. By cutting the underside of the leading edge ( instead of the trailing side used to get) the converter was "confused" longer yet the unmodified trailing edge maintained the large surface area needed for lockup. At that "eureka" point fin angles and pump to turbine clearance became more important than ever. The converters were so good that the one way sprags began failing. Now days stators are often hand made from steel in specialty applications.
Bottom line rule of thumb, big converter , lower stall smaller converter , higher stall , all without regard to power ( torque) input.
Randy
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falcongeorge,
You are correct about converter sizing and stall speed. I do have converter experience . Large surface area ( big converter) is harder to make "slip" than a smaller area. Long ago converter modifiers bent fins and machined stators just like today. This would get 2500 out of a 12 " converter or about the same as a stock Falcon 10" ( if it would fit "out of the box") The stator machining done back then was helpful but really hurt efficiency ( lock up) . Marv Ripes out here in the west ( and some others) looked at a different way to machine the aluminum stators and gain stall ( literally fluid confusion) before the rpm created enough flow for "fluid lock". The blades of an aluminum stator look like a modified airplane wing. By cutting the underside of the leading edge ( instead of the trailing side used to get) the converter was "confused" longer yet the unmodified trailing edge maintained the large surface area needed for lockup. At that "eureka" point fin angles and pump to turbine clearance became more important than ever. The converters were so good that the one way sprags began failing. Now days stators are often hand made from steel in specialty applications.
Bottom line rule of thumb, big converter , lower stall smaller converter , higher stall , all without regard to power ( torque) input.
Randy
I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that Marv Ripes(A-1) revolutionised the converter/auto trans biz, and along with it, stock and SS class racing, and door car racing in general. For sure there were other serious players at that time, like Vinnie Tarantola, Paul Forte and Rossi, but in the early/mid seventies, probably half the best auto trans class cars in the country had A-1 converters in them. He was also the one that made the powerglide a viable drag racing trans. I was just a kid, pushing a broom and washing parts on the weekends for a guy that was building gas and m/p class motors (and some VERY serious street race motors) so I didn't have much to do with stock and SS stuff directly, but I sure witnessed a lot of that revolution in real time, as it was happening.
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I'm not 100% sure of who "created" the leading edge cuts on the stator. I do know that there was a fierce battle between A1 and Rossi ( Bob Thomson and Mike Munsinger did the developement and eventually struck out on their own as Thomson Transmissions and Munsinger Converters). Mike had the mods down to a science. I still have two Opel units I rely on in my race car. One is a bit tighter than the other because it has a "19 blade" Fiat stator instead of the common 1.9 Opel stator.
Randy