FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: George vega on August 18, 2017, 08:03:22 PM
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When I assembled my 428 I used right stuff on the front and rear rails as well as around the water passages and had absolutely no leaks. Great stuff. Today I went to take the intake off and guess What? No way to get the intake off even after using a razor to cut the seals. The only option I have now is to do it the old gashion way when they pulled cast iron ones.
Hook up a plate to the carb flange and use the engine hoist to pull it off. Maybe tomorrow.
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George, get something that you can wedge between the china rail and end of the intake, and pry with steady pressure. Keep the pressure on it and it may take a few seconds, but it'll pop loose. I use my gasket scraper because it's wide and flat and fairly stiff and won't ding the intake. Next time use Permatex Ultra Seal. It works much better than silicone but a lot easier to disassemble than Rightstuff. It's the wrongstuff. ::)
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I agree. The Rightstuff seals great, but the disassembly is atrocious. After the first time I had to pull my intake with it, I immediately switched to Motorcraft TA-31.
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If you remove the head and intake bolts, then jostle the heads around, it should come loose a lot easier, and possibly without any prying. Worked for me.
*** Edit *** Assuming the Rocker Shafts are removed!
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Everything is removed. I'm sure that the engine hoist will separate it. I need to get it out of the trailer to get the headers off anyway. I've tried pry bars and it doesn't budge. I'm afraid of breaking my new victor intake.
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....I used right stuff on the front and rear rails as well as around the water passages and had absolutely no leaks.
I believe that's the whole point. I would much rather spend 5 minutes with a blade than any time at all with a leaking China wall. I guess if it's a weekend racer, that's one thing. For a motor I don't plan to take apart for years, I'm OK with a little adhesion added to my sealant.
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I feel your pain. I don't know what the PO used to seal the aluminum 3x2 intake with but it wouldn't budge. Finally took a couple gasket scrapers and tapped them in between the intake and heads at the exhaust crossover area. After a while it finally broke loose. I scrapped for hours on that intake.
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I quit using Right Stuff because it's so hard to get off.
The TA-31 seals as well and is much easier to remove in my opinion.
I like the color better too with an aluminum intake.
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George, get something that you can wedge between the china rail and end of the intake, and pry with steady pressure. Keep the pressure on it and it may take a few seconds, but it'll pop loose. I use my gasket scraper because it's wide and flat and fairly stiff and won't ding the intake. Next time use Permatex Ultra Seal. It works much better than silicone but a lot easier to disassemble than Rightstuff. It's the wrongstuff. ::)
I am an end cork guy and I love Ultra Seal. However, as an old FE head that sees a lot of guys eliminating the end seals, I would warn you against Ultra Seal on the ends.
Ultra Seal is a little better than standard RTV, but the end rail surfaces on an FE are long and narrow and the bead is usually thick compared to a BBC or SBC. Granted, Edelbrock has closed them up a bit on the new manifolds, but still a lot tougher to seal correctly than other engines.
Right Stuff was the "right stuff", although you paid for the sealing with the adhesive, until people started finding porous/bubbles and seeping oil. Moreover, I think Right Stuff is the messiest, craziest crap ever made. Seems to get everywhere when I use it. TA-31 seems to be pretty darn good, but will also hold tight, maybe not quite as tight, but if using it in place of china rail seals you need it to grip. Just really need a better/longer blade to cut it.
I still like fitting the manifold for cork. I use 3M weatherstrip to glue them to the block and let them dry solid, then immediately before assembly I sparingly use Ultra Blue at the intake gasket/end seal junction and across the cork. It acts as a lube which allows the manifold to move and not push the end seal out. Then of course it hardens and helps seal. If you have the room, it's hard to beat. I have even made end seals out of thinner material to avoid having to count on a bead of sealant.
It'd be nice if someone made a good rubber seal with locating tabs on both sides of the wal, so that it would stay put, but nothing out there that I know of
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Sharpen the end of a hack saw blade and jamb it through the end seal, then cut the darn stuff. If you can't pry it off, I highly doubt you'll PULL it off with a hoist. You can probably lift the front of the car.
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George, get something that you can wedge between the china rail and end of the intake, and pry with steady pressure. Keep the pressure on it and it may take a few seconds, but it'll pop loose. I use my gasket scraper because it's wide and flat and fairly stiff and won't ding the intake. Next time use Permatex Ultra Seal. It works much better than silicone but a lot easier to disassemble than Rightstuff. It's the wrongstuff. ::)
I am an end cork guy and I love Ultra Seal. However, as an old FE head that sees a lot of guys eliminating the end seals, I would warn you against Ultra Seal on the ends.
Ultra Seal is a little better than standard RTV, but the end rail surfaces on an FE are long and narrow and the bead is usually thick compared to a BBC or SBC. Granted, Edelbrock has closed them up a bit on the new manifolds, but still a lot tougher to seal correctly than other engines.
Right Stuff was the "right stuff", although you paid for the sealing with the adhesive, until people started finding porous/bubbles and seeping oil. Moreover, I think Right Stuff is the messiest, craziest crap ever made. Seems to get everywhere when I use it. TA-31 seems to be pretty darn good, but will also hold tight, maybe not quite as tight, but if using it in place of china rail seals you need it to grip. Just really need a better/longer blade to cut it.
I still like fitting the manifold for cork. I use 3M weatherstrip to glue them to the block and let them dry solid, then immediately before assembly I sparingly use Ultra Blue at the intake gasket/end seal junction and across the cork. It acts as a lube which allows the manifold to move and not push the end seal out. Then of course it hardens and helps seal. If you have the room, it's hard to beat. I have even made end seals out of thinner material to avoid having to count on a bead of sealant.
It'd be nice if someone made a good rubber seal with locating tabs on both sides of the wal, so that it would stay put, but nothing out there that I know of
I do this for a living and use Ultra Seal on every intake. I doubt if the tube of Ultra can tell if it's an FE or BB Chev. It seals very well even on long narrow wide gaps. Like with anything you use, it's all in the prep and how you install the intake. I use Super Weatherstrip on intake gaskets. It's good stuff too. I make temporary end seals out of different thickness rubber strips when I'm dyno testing intake manifolds, but for me, end seals are just a potential leak on a customer's engine. If I used them, I'd do exactly as you do.
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Well believe it or not, FE's are a different animal because the cylinder head drains aim right at the china walls. If there is a weakness there, oil will find it.
I don't use cork end gaskets either because there are too many aftermarket applications where the ports line up perfectly but the china wall gap is way more than a section of cork.
The Right Stuff has let me down because of porosity. Have also used TA-31, but just not a fan of it. It's like never-seize, you'll end up with it from head to toe eventually. I prefer to use Down Corning 732 silicone and have for a couple of years now. It's FE proof and comes off super easy.
You may get lucky on 1-2 FE's with something less-than-substantial on the end seals, but you will eventually find a weak bead.
Chevy's are different animals. You put all the parts in a bag, shake it, and out pops an engine. FE's take a little finesse.
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I am a Right Stuff fan and use it on most applications It is no messier than any other RTV product and it is wonderfully flexible, and as has been said tremendous adhesive properties.. It IS difficult to separate parts once it has dried.. I use this tool. It is thin spring steel beveled on both sides and sharp enough to slice the bead..It is also great for separating intake gaskets so they can be reused.
https://www.amazon.com/Demarkt-Baking-Wooden-Handle-Spatula/dp/B0716WQ8TK/ref=zg_bs_3737381_47?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=PV8760XHMYR9V4VG6DFS (https://www.amazon.com/Demarkt-Baking-Wooden-Handle-Spatula/dp/B0716WQ8TK/ref=zg_bs_3737381_47?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=PV8760XHMYR9V4VG6DFS)
I find the only time Right Stuff leaks is if you did not smear it carefully on both sealing surfaces to adhere it to non sticking areas.. I also have had good luck sealing up a leak by applying over the outer surface.. I had an oil pan on one of my Frankenstein engines that would have required a modified gasket.. A thick bead of right stuff sealed it better than any gasket.. But OH Boy when it cam time to remove the pan... I did not cut the bead but tried to pry it off.. I bent the pan rail trying to pull it loose
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I prefer to use Dow Corning 732 silicone and have for a couple of years now. It's FE proof and comes off super easy.
-and it comes in a caulk gun tube cartridge, which makes it super super easy to apply a perfect bead on the endwalls.
The Dow corning also appears to last for a very long time, whereas a half full tube of regular rtv would set up inside the tube during that time.
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George, get something that you can wedge between the china rail and end of the intake, and pry with steady pressure. Keep the pressure on it and it may take a few seconds, but it'll pop loose. I use my gasket scraper because it's wide and flat and fairly stiff and won't ding the intake. Next time use Permatex Ultra Seal. It works much better than silicone but a lot easier to disassemble than Rightstuff. It's the wrongstuff. ::)
I am an end cork guy and I love Ultra Seal. However, as an old FE head that sees a lot of guys eliminating the end seals, I would warn you against Ultra Seal on the ends.
Ultra Seal is a little better than standard RTV, but the end rail surfaces on an FE are long and narrow and the bead is usually thick compared to a BBC or SBC. Granted, Edelbrock has closed them up a bit on the new manifolds, but still a lot tougher to seal correctly than other engines.
Right Stuff was the "right stuff", although you paid for the sealing with the adhesive, until people started finding porous/bubbles and seeping oil. Moreover, I think Right Stuff is the messiest, craziest crap ever made. Seems to get everywhere when I use it. TA-31 seems to be pretty darn good, but will also hold tight, maybe not quite as tight, but if using it in place of china rail seals you need it to grip. Just really need a better/longer blade to cut it.
I still like fitting the manifold for cork. I use 3M weatherstrip to glue them to the block and let them dry solid, then immediately before assembly I sparingly use Ultra Blue at the intake gasket/end seal junction and across the cork. It acts as a lube which allows the manifold to move and not push the end seal out. Then of course it hardens and helps seal. If you have the room, it's hard to beat. I have even made end seals out of thinner material to avoid having to count on a bead of sealant.
It'd be nice if someone made a good rubber seal with locating tabs on both sides of the wal, so that it would stay put, but nothing out there that I know of
I do this for a living and use Ultra Seal on every intake. I doubt if the tube of Ultra can tell if it's an FE or BB Chev. It seals very well even on long narrow wide gaps. Like with anything you use, it's all in the prep and how you install the intake. I use Super Weatherstrip on intake gaskets. It's good stuff too. I make temporary end seals out of different thickness rubber strips when I'm dyno testing intake manifolds, but for me, end seals are just a potential leak on a customer's engine. If I used them, I'd do exactly as you do.
Scott, appreciate the fact that you do this for a living, and you of course don't know me from Adam, but I was pulling wrenches professionally for Ford when Ultra series came out. Loved it and still love it compared to stinky RTV. In 1986 I opened my own shop and in 1995 we combined it with another family shop because I decided to join the USAF to fly. Through 1995 it fed us, put me through 2 college degrees has since then still pays for all my toys and tools, without touching any of my regular income, and all the time an FE guy. To be honest though, plenty of mice and rats paid the bills and much of the Ford work were fleets of FTs and FE pickups in the late 80s, all the more reason to not want to redo an intake
Now that I am done peeing on a fire hydrant, I am trying to help, if you don't want to agree, no need to and I am done talking, but from experience I do not think it's good advice for an FE, and I'd politely warn you not to do it on your upcoming build.
If this were a Chevy style rubber gasket, thinner gap and wider footprint, I'll give it to you in a heart beat. Ultra is a bit better than RTV, but not much and the china walls on an FE are different. Too much you push into a return, but you need a lot to fill a gap and the block wall is narrow. What generally happens with a non-adhesive type of gasket maker is that it lasts for a bit, and once oil crawls behind it, it lets go just like RTV.
Personally, I have never had an FE end seal leak. I have had some fight me until I was happy, often machining the intake, and even taping off the valley and using a coarse file to knock down a cork gasket to make it perfect, but pure sealer on an FE IMHO only works if you have an adhesive/gasket maker, and a tight gap.
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i know the word pry and fe intake should not be in the same sentence,but i had the same problem and i took out the thermostat and put a wooden handle in the thermostat hole and applied steady pressure and it slowly pulled loose
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Today I got the intake off. I had to use my engine hoist to get it off. It actually started lifting the car up. I tapped it with a rubber Malot and still nothing. So I started prying on it at the front China wall while the lift was pulling and it finally came loose. Never again.
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Now that I am done peeing on a fire hydrant, I am trying to help, if you don't want to agree, no need to and I am done talking, but from experience I do not think it's good advice for an FE, and I'd politely warn you not to do it on your upcoming build.
If this were a Chevy style rubber gasket, thinner gap and wider footprint, I'll give it to you in a heart beat. Ultra is a bit better than RTV, but not much and the china walls on an FE are different. Too much you push into a return, but you need a lot to fill a gap and the block wall is narrow. What generally happens with a non-adhesive type of gasket maker is that it lasts for a bit, and once oil crawls behind it, it lets go just like RTV.
Personally, I have never had an FE end seal leak. I have had some fight me until I was happy, often machining the intake, and even taping off the valley and using a coarse file to knock down a cork gasket to make it perfect, but pure sealer on an FE IMHO only works if you have an adhesive/gasket maker, and a tight gap.
OK, I yield to the fact that the FE is special. Seems all Fords are special, and no other engine is. It's all I hear on Ford forums...how "special" Fords are that the the laws of physics and chemistry don't apply to them like other engines. I guess the several FE's I've built and/or changed intakes on (admittedly only a handfull) somehow don't count toward any real or relative experience compared to others here but in my ignorance and lack of experience, I'll take a chance and keep doing what has worked really well so far.
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Frankly, they are special.
FE's are different from pretty much every other engine, good and bad character flaws withstanding. They are more difficult to build and much more difficult to build correctly.
We are just trying to give you some pointers, because it *really stinks* to have to pull an intake back off. I would also suggest using sealant on both sides of the intake gasket. Since the intake gaskets/ports are essentially submerged in oil, you want extra strength there.
Funny what you hear on different forums, huh?
On Chevy forums, I always hear:
"I set 'em up tight. Sometimes I have to drag 'em down the road until I can get them to start."
"I bet that thing will fly! It's got a 350 with double hump heads on it!"
"Just time it by ear!"
On Pontiac forums, I hear:
"That thing needs a hydraulic roller cam with solid roller lifters!"
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Now that I am done peeing on a fire hydrant, I am trying to help, if you don't want to agree, no need to and I am done talking, but from experience I do not think it's good advice for an FE, and I'd politely warn you not to do it on your upcoming build.
If this were a Chevy style rubber gasket, thinner gap and wider footprint, I'll give it to you in a heart beat. Ultra is a bit better than RTV, but not much and the china walls on an FE are different. Too much you push into a return, but you need a lot to fill a gap and the block wall is narrow. What generally happens with a non-adhesive type of gasket maker is that it lasts for a bit, and once oil crawls behind it, it lets go just like RTV.
Personally, I have never had an FE end seal leak. I have had some fight me until I was happy, often machining the intake, and even taping off the valley and using a coarse file to knock down a cork gasket to make it perfect, but pure sealer on an FE IMHO only works if you have an adhesive/gasket maker, and a tight gap.
OK, I yield to the fact that the FE is special. Seems all Fords are special, and no other engine is. It's all I hear on Ford forums...how "special" Fords are that the the laws of physics and chemistry don't apply to them like other engines. I guess the several FE's I've built and/or changed intakes on (admittedly only a handfull) somehow don't count toward any real or relative experience compared to others here but in my ignorance and lack of experience, I'll take a chance and keep doing what has worked really well so far.
Scott, I am not trying to be a pain, but no shit, old heads here have some tricks, and the FE has some unique (call it quirky) stuff, like it or not. China walls are imperfect, rear mains, thrust bearings, valvetrain etc. I just spent the day on a 67 400 HO Poncho, which leaked like a sieve, I went to the Poncho forums to see what guys were doing lately to seal them up. When I was building 389s and 400s, nobody had a one piece pan gasket and nobody had a 1 piece rear main seal. I chose the new style gasket but not the rear main because I didn't like the idea of threading that in with the crank in it under the car. Doesn't mean anyone was wrong (well maybe me if it leaks LOL).
Please do it your way, I am the last guy to poke someone in the eye, but sometimes the guys who do a lot of them aren't stupid or were bit by things. We disagree in here, try to explain it, and I would guess that every so often, we try each others tricks, just like any old wrench puller would when he sees someone else doing it and toss the ideas we don't like
Case in point, in the 90s when the original FE forum was running, NOBODY wanted to run stock style hyd rockers on an FE. In fact, used to be the "limit" was .500 lift. You went adjustables or rollers. Nowadays, after Brent and Blair really led the pack, many of us now see that they work better on a HR cam, lighter and easier and stable as hell. Who would have thunk it? Now it's mainstream HR stuff and smarter than a big set of rollers in many cases.
Second case, in the 90s you couldn't GIVE away a Streetmaster and everyone wanted a Sidewinder or Portosonic, then Jay started testing and fipped it all around
I am looking forward to your engine build, as I do anyone else's in here. You mentioned some different choices in cams from Straub and I see he uses some different combos on Speedtalk, looking forward to it, they tend to be milder intake, wider and more exhaust, looking forward to see what you come up with. You also eluded to some math and CSA thoughts, bring it on, would love to hear.
BTW, I used the last of the tube of Ultra Blue and some Ultra Grey today on that Poncho and my hunch is it'll work awesome ;)
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Ultra grey? Oh hell, I used Mediocre Grey....
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Ultra grey? Oh hell, I used Mediocre Grey....
It was a Pontiac, needed all the help it can get :)
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OK, OK...my reply above was a little exaggerated...but like a lot of you, I've been doing this a long time. I've built a few FE's and I've built a LOT of other engines. Pontiacs, Chryslers, OLD Fords...flat heads, Y blocks, and a lot of Chebbys. Thing is, they ALL are "special" and have their quirks and idiosyncrasies. I do sincerely appreciate the input and there are some really valid reasons for doing certain things on FE's because they are "different". One I never considered until Barry pointed it out to me is the fact that the intake gaskets are exposed to oil form the top as well as the bottom. Good point. Some gaskets will hold up better than others because of this. The china wall...well, every china wall is exposed to lots of oil. I work with a much narrower area on some BB Chev's because of the way the intake is made. Sometimes less than 1/4". The china wall is already narrow and the intake only covers half of it. I get one shot setting the intake or it'll push the bead of sealer off to one side and once I do that it'll never seal. BTDT too many times. My first FE ( in 1976) I used the end seals and it immediately spit the rear one out. Of course, I didn't know it till it was all together and had a horrible oil leak. This was a factory 428CJ with the iron intake...and we all know what that intake weighs. Learned my lesson early on FE intakes and end seals. You just take more time, make sure things are extra clean, and you're just that much more careful when fitting and setting the intake. Definitely not something you like/want to have to do inside the car.
It's all good.
One thing to note about UltraSeal and I've seen this first hand...I don't know if it was an old batch, but I did remove a leaking intake once and it had been on the engine for a week before dyno. End seals leaked badly. I pulled the intake and even after all that time, the Ultra was still wet inside the bead. It had formed a thick skin, but never set up throughout. I don't know if this is always the case and it takes a long time to fully cure, but I was really surprised to see that. Other than that one time, I've never had a problem with it. You do need to use it in a fairly short time as it will get a skin. Once it does that, it's probably not going to adhere to anything and will leak but I think any sealer is like that. Also, if the prep is right, it doesn't seem to allow oil to get behind it like Silicone RTV will. Silicone IMO is a waste of time no matter how well you prep the surfaces.
JMOFWIW.
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I use nothing but Dow Corning 732 silicone. On every engine. It's given me the least amount of grief of anything else I've ever used. Engine builder buddy of mine down here told me about it. He's been using it for decades.
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I use and recommend the Motorcraft TA-31. Its a Ford product - a silicone intended for Ford diesel applications - so its good with oil, and the formulation meets some sort of an OE standard. It comes in a half sized caulk tube, and seems to remain usable for a very long time. I like the way you can control the bead width and height with the caulk tube, I like the way it sets up, and I like the fact that it actually does dry.
I have removed many intakes with the TA-31 and never noticed a big challenge. Just used a razor blade to slice the end seal bead from side to side.
On the FE the particular areas to look out for are those oil returns in the end of the head - they are "right there" and easy to plug up. Also pay attention to the distributor hole, which is right up against the china wall. Pretty easy to get a glob of silicone sticking out into the way. I usually do a quick finger wipe in that area after setting the intake just to be sure its clear.
I had that same experience with ultra gray - an engine that had actually dyno run and needed to be pulled apart still had soft goop in the center of a bead.
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+1 on TA-31, best sealer out there IMO. My junk comes apart so often that the Right Stuff is not an option...
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I use 4 short studs on the ends to align and set the intake down, then I use the distributor for final alignment.
This allows me to set the intake down without any shifting.
I know the studs are at an angle but if they are short enough it works.
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Went to a local Ford dealer about a month ago to get some TA-31. He handed me a tube that looked like it had been there a while. Checked it out and it was about 6 months past the expiration date on the tube. Asked him about it and he made it sound like they don't use that much anymore. Told him I wanted to use it for rear main seal and intake. There was a mechanic that works there at the other desk getting parts, he said they use some other stuff now for instances such as that. I got the impression that he thought this new stuff (fomoco) was the s--t and made it sound like the TA-31 was getting phased out.
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Well about the TA-31...Now when i started up the Galaxie i had a Small hole in the radiator
sprayed water out from the grill had no time to take out the radiator to solder it.....opened
the radiatorcap o take the pressure away and......well sometimes you test things you are sure
that it wont work but it wont make it worse...smeared some TA-31 over the wet hole, didn't stick
smeared one more time it stuck packed the suitcases in the trunk had dinner and packed some
jugs of water topped up the radiator went on vacation imagine... it still not leaking :o im impressed
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Sorry guys. I thought I posted getting the intake off. I used the engine hoist with a strap around the front intake runners until it almost lifted the car. Then I prayed iundr the front China wall until I felt it separate a little. I then let the engine hoist down and finished prying it off. I the removed the lifters, timing set and cam out. I also got 8 header bolts off. 24 more to go.
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You are fine George. Looking good.
Don't mind us... it's an FE group, we can debate crank shaft slingers for 2-3 weeks and there will be death threats and stuff, don't take it personal.
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On to getting the headers off. They are 2 1/8 tubes which I wrapped and that left me with very little wiggle room for the bolts. I always install all 4 bolts per tube. The bottom ones are the worst. Is it front to back to install or the other way around? These are the hooker full race units.
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I use to separate all the tubes at the flange and not tighten them all the way until I had all of the bolts in and started. With a combination of box wrenches, sockets and extensions it wasn't as hard as some people make out. I don't remember there being any particular order of installing the tubes. Maybe working on the center ones first gives you more room with the ends out of the way.
Of course the first time someone does headers in a mustang they will be swearing like a sailor and have a bunch of skinned knuckles
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I've done these more than I care to remember. I've got the two front tubes off today.
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The Right Stuff has let me down because of porosity.
A bit late to the party here, but were you using the pressurized 'cheeze whiz' style can? The gas that's used to pressurize the sealant seems to cause it to form bubbles in the sealant. I haven't had that problem since I quite using the pressurized can. I only use the caulk tubes now.
I think different sealants work for different cases and different areas, for different reasons. It's not written in the 'Engine Book Of The Gods' that one sealant must be used throughout the entire engine, or even in one specific area. The sealant you use on a drag car, that gets regular check-overs, won't necessarily work on an engine meant to go 50,000 miles, and vice versa.
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I use Ultra Seal black on the china walls on my builds and have yet to have any issues unless I didn't lay the bead thick enough. Also use it on water pump gaskets and such. On headers, most of us racers use Ultra Seal high Temp - the red stuff. Use an old Felpro steel sandwich gasket and wipe red goo around the ports, bolt it up. I see it used on $50K Top Dragster motors LOL. I put the 732 in my wish list at Amazon, will get a tube next time we order from Bezos Inc.