FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: james on May 04, 2017, 04:05:09 PM
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Running a 427 fe stroked to 482 (Barry's kit) in a 1964 Ford Falcon. This is strictly a street car and not for drag racing. The comp cam is 260 @.50 with solid lifters, c6 with manual valve body and I plan on using 350 gears. Any advice would be helpful and I'm also open to suggestions. Thank You!
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Considering the weight of the car, the cam and engine displacement, the gearing, and the street usage, I'd say about 3500 rpm stall.
JMO,
paulie
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Come on guys. This is an interesting combination. Big cam (high stall), large displacement (lower stall), light car (lower stall), numerically low rear gear (could go lower or higher stall), street use (lower stall).
What do you do? I think around 3500 rpm stall would work good. I'd recommend an auxiliary trans cooler.
The answers are easy when it's full-race or pure-street, but what about a combination like this? This is an interesting question?
JMO,
paulie
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He could try a stock convertor, but all the neutral drops would be hell on the trans.
That much cam would need more stall than 3500. But, considering the rest of the application 3500 is probably the best bet.
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Its really not that big of a cam for a 482" engine. If you call the converter companies, they will want to see dyno data if possible before making a recommendation. Since it is street use only though, a 3000-3500 stall converter, probably a 10", is going to be the best option.
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To be honest I am not that knowlegable about how stalls, gears, cams and rpm's work mathamatically speaking. I did see a formula that you times the rpm's (lest's say I shift at 6500) by the 25" tire size diameter and then divide that by 336 etc. So what if I went with (on one hand) 373 gears? And on the other hand went with 325 gears, what stall would I use in each case? My aim is not so much of a drag racing car but more of a freeway car. Thanks again for the advice.
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I'm with Jay , that's a small solid flat tappet for a 482
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When I've worked with convertor companies, basically they want the torque peak RPM as a reference along with all the other vehicle info. For a race application, more or less they'll try to put the stall at the torque peak. For street/strip type duty, they'll knock that 500rpm below torque peak. There are a LOT more variables in place here, but just working ballpark numbers.
I have no idea what your combo peaked at, but just guessing, I'd say 4200rpm or so? So, I agree with others, 3500rpm would seem to fit will with your combo.
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"This is strictly a street car and not for drag racing"..........This is all you would need https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hup-35-25/overview/
edit note..Measure your crankshaft first.After market cranks may be machined differently.It could be you would need the 1.375 snout on the converter.
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I would not go 12", 11" minimum 2400+, 10" tight 3000 better. Your gear/tire size will impact stall on a street car more than anything else - because if you are crusing below stall, that's heat. A lot of heat. Put a temp gauge and a deep pan on the trans. Heat that makes you stop once in a while a let it bleed off. I know, I use a 4000 in a street car with 4.56 gears and 28" tire. I can go about 15 miles in mild weather at 3200+ RPM before I need to give the trans a rest. Thats from dead cold to near 190F. Slow cruise night, I can last a few miles and maybe 30~40 minutes before parking. The cooler is large and has a big fan behind it running constantly. 2400 stall, no problems with a decent cooler. 3000 - probably still OK, watch the gauge. Over that - watch the gauge and the weather. If you had not said "street", I'd have said 3600~4200, and more gear.
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That's interesting, I've always thought the torque converter adds heat argument was overblown. I run 6000 stall converters on a variety of cars, including my Mach 1, my Galaxie, and my Shelby clone, and take them on Drag Week where you are driving 200-300 miles per day, in all kinds of traffic conditions. I never saw a significant rise in trans fluid temperature, 175 to 180 was typical. My temp sender is in the transmission pan, which of course is not the hottest area, but nevertheless if there was extreme heat somewhere I think I'd have seen it on the gauge. I always run #6 lines to a good, plate style transmission cooler (like an Earl's), positioned in front of the radiator.
For my part, I would not be afraid to run any stall speed on the street.
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To be honest I am not that knowlegable about how stalls, gears, cams and rpm's work mathamatically speaking. I did see a formula that you times the rpm's (lest's say I shift at 6500) by the 25" tire size diameter and then divide that by 336 etc. So what if I went with (on one hand) 373 gears? And on the other hand went with 325 gears, what stall would I use in each case? My aim is not so much of a drag racing car but more of a freeway car. Thanks again for the advice.
In general, a numerically higher rear gear would suggest a higher rpm stall converter. Not always though. it depends on your whole combination and the intended use.
Freeway driving would suggest a lower stall speed, especially with the numerically low rear gear. A high rpm stall convertor combined with a numerically low rear gear can lead to lots of slippage on the freeway.
Are your rear tires really only 25" tall? That is pretty short. The rear tire is essentially the last gear in your driveline.
If you're serious about freeway driving then I'd go down to a stall convertor in the 2800-3000 rpm range with 3.50 rear gears. Still want to know your rear tire diameter though.
JMO,
paulie
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I'm with Jay again on trans heat / converter stall , I never noticed anymore heat in the trans pan when I went to 5000 stall while street driving ....
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To be honest I am not that knowlegable about how stalls, gears, cams and rpm's work mathamatically speaking. I did see a formula that you times the rpm's (lest's say I shift at 6500) by the 25" tire size diameter and then divide that by 336 etc. So what if I went with (on one hand) 373 gears? And on the other hand went with 325 gears, what stall would I use in each case? My aim is not so much of a drag racing car but more of a freeway car. Thanks again for the advice.
In general, a numerically higher rear gear would suggest a higher rpm stall converter. Not always though. it depends on your whole combination and the intended use.
Freeway driving would suggest a lower stall speed, especially with the numerically rear gear. A high rpm stall convertor combined with a numerically low rear gear can lead to lots of slippage on the freeway.
Are your rear tires really only 25" tall? That is pretty short. The rear tire is essentially the last gear in your driveline.
If you're serious about freeway driving then I'd go down to a stall convertor in the 2800-3000 rpm range with 3.50 rear gears. Still want to know your rear tire diameter though.
JMO,
paulie
Yes sir, the rear tires are 25" in diameter and I have MT E-streets on her. The following are pictures of the car and the guy who built the engine that is presently in her. 408 stroker. My plan is to put the 408 stroker in a 1966 mercury comet cyclone and put the 427 in the falcon. http://www.badasscars.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=390/category_id=23/mode=prod/prd390.htm If you read the tech tips on the site there is a question about which gears and converters to use. Thanks!
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A 25" tall tire with a 3.50 rear gear is a fairly low (numerically high) overall ratio. Not ideal for freeway use, in my opinion. You'll be turning around 2900 rpm at 60 mph, over 3400 rpm at 70 mph, and over 3900 rpm at 80 mph, depending on the torque converter slippage. That would drive me crazy.
My Cougar has 4.11 gears with a 27" tire and 3600 stall. It's not fun on the highway. If I had 25" tires, I'd need about 3.80 rear gears to keep my overall gear ratio the same. So your combo is geared higher (numerically lower) than mine, but not by a huge amount.
paulie
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This is a very interesting question.
First, you'll generally find the 260@.050 cams at the bottom of the street cam page. That means they're big. :)
My general rule from when I was street racing and there were no DOT racing tires...either you ran slicks or not. If you were going to run mostly street tires then I'd suggest just enough stall to keep the engine from stalling at idle or you having to press the brakes really hard to keep the car from creeping at a stop light. I'd rather have too low a stall speed to pull torque back slightly, though you could still blow the tires off, than get the motor into it's "torque zone" and assuredly blow the tires off.
I think any generic 10" street converter would do the trick, or a custom 11" designed for a true 2500 or so stall.
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The C6 assembly area at T&C Livonia ended with a set of test stands through which all finished transmissions passed. Close by was a tank of transmission fluid that held a hundred gallons or more for the use of the test procedures. And immersed in the tank of oil was a heater that kept the temperature at 180 degrees.
When the oil temp goes up the life of the fluid goes down. I believe, for your combination, you need a 2500-3000 (max) stall speed and enough of a trans cooler to keep the oil at a bit less than 200 degrees maximum. The closer to 180 over the long term the happier you'll be.
You need a converter loose enough to not drag the engine down in stop-and-go and tight enough to not be a bother at freeway speeds. And of course you know that the SAME converter will act different if you change engine characteristics.
I'm sure everybody knows that 'stall' applies to engine speed characteristic and not to the converter itself. To speak of a 'stall converter' shows a profound ignorance of the topic. ALL converters have a stall speed. I DO understand the wish to talk in 'cool' shorthand but please demonstrate basic knowledge. ;D ;)
KS
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The C6 assembly area at T&C Livonia ended with a set of test stands through which all finished transmissions passed. Close by was a tank of transmission fluid that held a hundred gallons or more for the use of the test procedures. And immersed in the tank of oil was a heater that kept the temperature at 180 degrees.
When the oil temp goes up the life of the fluid goes down. I believe, for your combination, you need a 2500-3000 (max) stall speed and enough of a trans cooler to keep the oil at a bit less than 200 degrees maximum. The closer to 180 over the long term the happier you'll be.
You need a converter loose enough to not drag the engine down in stop-and-go and tight enough to not be a bother at freeway speeds. And of course you know that the SAME converter will act different if you change engine characteristics.
I'm sure everybody knows that 'stall' applies to engine speed characteristic and not to the converter itself. To speak of a 'stall converter' shows a profound ignorance of the topic. ALL converters have as stall speed. I DO understand the wish to talk in 'cool' shorthand but please demonstrate basic knowledge. ;D ;)
KS
Well thank you very much for your help. I do have one question for you "cammerfe?" Why would you "presume" or "assume" I'm trying to be cool with my language? Im a 72 year old Vietnam Veteran just trying to have some fun in my twilight years. You do not know the operation of one's mind or the motives of their heart. In fact, I did say in one of my post I am not very knowledgeable on this issue, hence my question in the first place.
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I just went through this entire thread and didn't find a place where you said 'stall converter'. And I had no intent to point a finger at you in any way. There are things said in various threads that simply shouldn't be there and I'll cheerfully confess to, occasionally, bringing that sort of thing to the general attention.
I believe you're offended when you have no reason to be. But you have my most heartfelt apology in any case. (One of the reasons for smiley faces is to mitigate any potential 'bent' feelings.) I'll be 76 years old in another few days and I'm not a veteran of any war because I started wearing glasses in 1949 and I'm so blind without them that they wouldn't take me. I also don't know what that has to do with anything.
KS
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Well, in any case be sure to let us know what stall converter you end up with, James. I've heard ATI makes good stall converters so you might look there. I'm pretty sure my next stall converter will be a custom one. As you know, a good stall converter can make all the difference. I do have an extra stall converter in my garage, but it stalled around 3800 rpm on my 428 so I don't think it would work good for your combination. Whichever stall converter you get I hope it works well for you and stalls at the rpm you want it to.
paulie
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I like stall converters.
8)
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Well, in any case be sure to let us know what stall converter you end up with, James. I've heard ATI makes good stall converters so you might look there. I'm pretty sure my next stall converter will be a custom one. As you know, a good stall converter can make all the difference. I do have an extra stall converter in my garage, but it stalled around 3800 rpm on my 428 so I don't think it would work good for your combination. Whichever stall converter you get I hope it works well for you and stalls at the rpm you want it to.
paulie
LMAO Paulie! ;D ;D
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Stall converters are no laughing matter, guys. If you get a bad stall converter, one that stalls at the wrong rpm, you won't be laughing. I had a stall converter like that once. It stalled at the wrong rpm. Not funny and not cool. In fact it was hot. My engine didn't stall, but the stall converter did. You could say my forward momentum was, well, stalled. I'm just asking for a little maturity here??? :P
paulie
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I just went through this entire thread and didn't find a place where you said 'stall converter'. And I had no intent to point a finger at you in any way. There are things said in various threads that simply shouldn't be there and I'll cheerfully confess to, occasionally, bringing that sort of thing to the general attention.
I believe you're offended when you have no reason to be. But you have my most heartfelt apology in any case. (One of the reasons for smiley faces is to mitigate any potential 'bent' feelings.) I'll be 76 years old in another few days and I'm not a veteran of any war because I started wearing glasses in 1949 and I'm so blind without them that they wouldn't take me. I also don't know what that has to do with anything.
KS
Well cammer, I accept your apology. Secondly, I did bring up the Vietnam thing because I'm grateful to be alive and your "chiding" me on such a "petty" issue of the word stall as in stall conveter. Thirdly, I don't really pay attention to the smiley faces.
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That's interesting, I've always thought the torque converter adds heat argument was overblown. I run 6000 stall converters on a variety of cars, including my Mach 1, my Galaxie, and my Shelby clone, and take them on Drag Week where you are driving 200-300 miles per day, in all kinds of traffic conditions. I never saw a significant rise in trans fluid temperature, 175 to 180 was typical. My temp sender is in the transmission pan, which of course is not the hottest area, but nevertheless if there was extreme heat somewhere I think I'd have seen it on the gauge. I always run #6 lines to a good, plate style transmission cooler (like an Earl's), positioned in front of the radiator.
For my part, I would not be afraid to run any stall speed on the street.
I have run 4500-5000ish stall, 8" converters on the street before, my experience pretty much parallels Jays. Maybe if you were running 3.08s or something stupid like that behind it, but with any sort of reasonable gear that makes sense for a car that NEEDS an 8" converter, I have never had a problem with excess heat. Honestly, at part throttle cruise, its pretty hard to tell the difference between a 10" 3500 stall and an 8" 4500-5000ish stall converter, unless you really goose it.
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I have run 4500-5000ish stall, 8" converters on the street before, my experience pretty much parallels Jays. Maybe if you were running 3.08s or something stupid like that behind it, but with any sort of reasonable gear that makes sense for a car that NEEDS an 8" converter, I have never had a problem with excess heat. Honestly, at part throttle cruise, its pretty hard to tell the difference between a 10" 3500 stall and an 8" 4500-5000ish stall converter, unless you really goose it.
I would generally agree with that. I think the confusion comes, at least in part, from a torque converter having a rated stall speed. It's a number and it sounds like it's absolute. "4500 rpm is the stall speed of this converter". But the actual stall speed in use, depends on how much load you are putting on it. If you have a "3000 rpm" stall speed torque converter, and you give it maximum load, like full throttle from a stop, it might actually stall at 3000 rpm at near zero mph. That's a lot of slippage. With the same convertor at light throttle at 70 mph and 3000 engine rpm it will be slipping a lot less. I don't know what it takes in terms of hp to cruise at 70 mph in most cars, but it has to something like 70-80 hp?
I guess what I am saying is a torque converter stalls at different rpms depending on the load put on it. That changes the slippage and torque mulitiplication. That's part of what makes automatics so desirable in so many applications. It's similar to a CVT transmission in that the true gear ratio is constantly changing.
Still, for any convertor over maybe 2600 rpm, I think an auxiliary transmission cooler and a transmission temp gauge are highly recommended. You might also think about synthetic transmission fluid to help with the higher temps.
JMO,
paulie
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I have run 4500-5000ish stall, 8" converters on the street before, my experience pretty much parallels Jays. Maybe if you were running 3.08s or something stupid like that behind it, but with any sort of reasonable gear that makes sense for a car that NEEDS an 8" converter, I have never had a problem with excess heat. Honestly, at part throttle cruise, its pretty hard to tell the difference between a 10" 3500 stall and an 8" 4500-5000ish stall converter, unless you really goose it.
I would generally agree with that. I think the confusion comes, at least in part, from a torque converter having a rated stall speed. It's a number and it sounds like it's absolute. "4500 rpm is the stall speed of this converter". But the actual stall speed in use, depends on how much load you are putting on it. If you have a "3000 rpm" stall speed torque converter, and you give it maximum load, like full throttle from a stop, it might actually stall at 3000 rpm at near zero mph. That's a lot of slippage. With the same convertor at light throttle at 70 mph and 3000 engine rpm it will be slipping a lot less. I don't know what it takes in terms of hp to cruise at 70 mph in most cars, but it has to something like 70-80 hp?
I guess what I am saying is a torque converter stalls at different rpms depending on the load put on it. That changes the slippage and torque mulitiplication. That's part of what makes automatics so desirable in so many applications. It's similar to a CVT transmission in that the true gear ratio is constantly changing.
Still, for any convertor over maybe 2600 rpm, I think an auxiliary transmission cooler and a transmission temp gauge are highly recommended. You might also think about synthetic transmission fluid to help with the higher temps.
JMO,
paulie
As a rule, I prefer to refer to converters by diameter and "loose" or "tight", ie, I would usually say a "loose 9.5" or "tight 8", but when I do, lots of guys don't know what I am talking about. When in Rome...
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Stall speed is the rpm achieved before the pump, turbine and stator obtain "fluid lock". Modifications to the stator fins, pump and turbine fins , and their specific clearances are how "stall speed" can be changed ( up or down). For years the popular approach was the "J" cut on the back side of the stator fins. Recent times have resulted in leading edge cuts and even hand made steel fin units. This allows higher stall convertors to get incredible efficiency that was never possible "the old way". Many are still done the old way and do provide increased stall. A convertor like Jay uses is a perfect example of a modern high efficiency , high stall convertor. Increased fluid temperature is a problem with less efficient convertors as they are always "slipping" which adds heat. One of the most common ways to increase stall is going to a smaller diameter convertor . Many drag race cars use a 7" dia unit for super high stall. 8" is the "old standby" . 9 and 10'' units are designed for street/strip or the tighter versions for blown engines. Higher engine torque can also raise a given convetor's stall point as well as lose stall when the torque output is less that the convertor was designed for.
Others may have different opinions/experience and that's cool too.
Randy
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You people quit stalling and get to the point. ;D
YMMV is the right idea. I can drive the 20 miles or so without a problem - on a 75 or 80 something day. In summer here, the road surface will be 140~150 degrees with an air temp of high 90s. It'll cross 180 on the trans in a short time. 180 is my personal cutoff. On the dragster - for sure more power but less load - trans temp goes from 150 to 180 in 660'. The fight this weekend - temps in the 90s - was trying to get the lawn dart's trans temp back to 150 before the next round. High speed blower pointing right at the trans case took 20 minutes.
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Stall speed is the rpm achieved before the pump, turbine and stator obtain "fluid lock". Modifications to the stator fins, pump and turbine fins
Maybe it would have been more correct if I said the slippage varies with load, rather than the actual true stall speed?
paulie
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You people quit stalling and get to the point. ;D
LMAO!! My vote for post of the week ;D
Ok, I'm back outta this conversation since I don't even know what a "converter" is, or what these "automatic" thingies do... 8)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/cjshaker/how%20a%20tranny%20works.jpg) (http://s43.photobucket.com/user/cjshaker/media/how%20a%20tranny%20works.jpg.html)
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:o ;D ;D
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Bah. ::) Was doing this every other weekend until I went auto 8)
(http://raceabilene.com/kelly/hotrod/images/falcon/clutch.jpg)
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paulie,
You are correct. Clarification not needed. For example a "standard" 6 cylinder Ford convertor in that "stock" application might have 1800 stall. IF it could be directly bolted to a 460 ( without modification) it might have 3,000+ , just because the motor's torque input to the convertor was almost double that of the 6. That is why "generic" convertor vendors state the stall speeds a s"approximate" or stall speeds vary with the degree of engine modifications. "Custom" convertor manufacturers usually ask for detailed information so they can build you what you need. There isn't "one" perfect , fit all convertor.
"Stall speed" is often checked with the trans in manual second or high ( never low) against the car's brakes or in racing applications where a "trans brake" is used to see the maximum rpm obtainable . In reality ( depending on how the convertor is modified internally) a convertor could "flash" higher. Flash happens when the inertia from the engine going from near idle to wide open ( so quickly) overwhelms the fluid and the rpm goes higher than you would see against the vehicle's brakes in a "stall test". One other side effect is "torque multiplication" which happens during the time the convertor is not in fluid lock. In other words the engine can go to a higher rpm and make more power while the convertor is "catching up" all while the car is accelerating. Fluid temperature( if monitored) should stay in the 180* range which usually requires additional external coolers.
Randy
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Bah. ::) Was doing this every other weekend until I went auto 8)
(http://raceabilene.com/kelly/hotrod/images/falcon/clutch.jpg)
How can you find the stick racer at the track? Just look for the guy with the biggest pile of broken parts ;D ;D
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IIRC, many bucks-down racers long ago used a OEM Chevy Vega's converter for the same reasons mentioned: put one behind a hot SBC or better, a hot BBC and it would flash at twice the rpm of the stone-stock 4-cylinder engine.
Today, the use of soft-loc clutches with many tuning features has near eliminated the constant breakage of the past for stick drag cars. And Jay was right as we quit door slammer racing, late 1970's, just as the 1st gen. of track-adjustable soft-loc clutch systems came into play. Man, did we break the parts, leading to us throwing in the towel about 1 1/2 years too early and going to a C-4 equipped Boss 302 gas dragster.
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I was the same way, THREE pedals or NONE!! But when I twisted the axle housing off of the spring perches (1973) I caved in and bought a used '66 Shelby ( ex Hertz rental) because it had an automatic. I have been two footing it ever since. Drive line breakage is non existent thanks to transferring the 31 spline A/FX from the 4 speed Shelby to it.
Randy
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paulie,
You are correct. Clarification not needed. For example a "standard" 6 cylinder Ford convertor in that "stock" application might have 1800 stall. IF it could be directly bolted to a 460 ( without modification) it might have 3,000+ , just because the motor's torque input to the convertor was almost double that of the 6. That is why "generic" convertor vendors state the stall speeds a s"approximate" or stall speeds vary with the degree of engine modifications. "Custom" convertor manufacturers usually ask for detailed information so they can build you what you need. There isn't "one" perfect , fit all convertor.
"Stall speed" is often checked with the trans in manual second or high ( never low) against the car's brakes or in racing applications where a "trans brake" is used to see the maximum rpm obtainable . In reality ( depending on how the convertor is modified internally) a convertor could "flash" higher. Flash happens when the inertia from the engine going from near idle to wide open ( so quickly) overwhelms the fluid and the rpm goes higher than you would see against the vehicle's brakes in a "stall test". One other side effect is "torque multiplication" which happens during the time the convertor is not in fluid lock. In other words the engine can go to a higher rpm and make more power while the convertor is "catching up" all while the car is accelerating. Fluid temperature( if monitored) should stay in the 180* range which usually requires additional external coolers.
Randy
Thanks for confirming what I was thinking. I wasn't sure if I using the right terminology.
paulie
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Well, I have to tell you guys that I swing both ways. ;D I like both manuals and automatics. Manuals are fun and are efficient in terms of power loss. Automatics have the aforementioned torque multiplication factor and great durability.
My experience is that most drag cars are faster on street surfaces (and often at the strip) with an automatic....and of course more durable.
If my Cougar had come with a 4 speed I would not have swapped it for a manual, but it came with a C6 and I'm glad it did. I have no doubt it would be slower with a manual unless I had a truly science-d out suspension.
JMO,
paulie
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Went out for a chicken sandwich this evening. In addition to the chicken, it had a piece of cheese and a couple slices of tomato, a leaf of lettuce and some mayo. It came with a Coke and an order of fries.
I tried to call it a 'large pizza' but no matter how I insisted and repeated myself, they told me I was describing a chicken sandwich. If you don't call things by accurate names, you only create confusion.
I tried to be polite about what I said, and I'll remain that way. And I believe there is less knowledge about torque converters readily available than is to be found in most areas of hot-rodding.
Thanks for your understanding.
KS
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KS ,
You are welcome to correct me on ANY of my posts anytime. I will not be offended. Relating your experience while working at Ford is invaluable , to me anyway. I have made friends with several guys from EEE thanks to Bill Holbrook "vouching" for me.
Randy
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Went out for a chicken sandwich this evening. In addition to the chicken, it had a piece of cheese and a couple slices of tomato, a leaf of lettuce and some mayo. It came with a Coke and an order of fries.
I tried to call it a 'large pizza' but no matter how I insisted and repeated myself, they told me I was describing a chicken sandwich. If you don't call things by accurate names, you only create confusion.
I tried to be polite about what I said, and I'll remain that way. And I believe there is less knowledge about torque converters readily available than is to be found in most areas of hot-rodding.
Thanks for your understanding.
KS
For crying out loud dude. Ease back on the reins a little bit.
"Stall converter" is basically slang for any converter that has a stall speed higher than a factory piece. Most of us know that and can interchange the vocabulary.
It's like that with a million other engine terms.
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Why not call a couple of STALL convertor companies I like ATI but their are several others Coan Continental Edge PTC .I think a lose 10" will work for you ATI has several street convertors in 10" for the c6 and c4s for that matter .Sometimes you need to go to the source If one wants to know about torque convertors ask a torque convertor guy .Just thinking out loud.Doug
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Fluid coupling 8)
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Us manual guys don't argue like this ;)
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Us manual guys don't argue like this ;)
Damn straight! ;)
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Until the subject of what clutch to use comes up. Same old battle , glass half full or half empty?
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Us manual guys don't argue like this ;)
My stall speed is UNLIMITED!
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Us manual guys don't argue like this ;)
My stall speed is UNLIMITED!
:P
But what about your top end? ;) https://youtu.be/gwpLvLb0_0c
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Until the subject of what clutch to use comes up. Same old battle , glass half full or half empty?
Which shows us the glass is twice as big as needed.
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Until the subject of what clutch to use comes up. Same old battle , glass half full or half empty?
Which shows us the glass is twice as big as needed.
Actually, if the glass is only half full, that shows that the bottle must be empty ;D