FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: FElony on July 05, 2016, 02:51:58 PM
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This is related to the Holley thread started by 427LX. Chris was talking about dialing secondary action for bracket racing. Some time ago in the other place I opined that perhaps, in a sub-400ci engine, a Holley 4412 500cfm two-barrel might be more consistent than a four-barrel because there is no secondary tuning.
Recently I dug up a couple 600's I acquired in the 70's that came off a tunnel ram something-or-other. They have that old geared linkage that turns the throttle shafts in 1:1 fashion, again eliminating secondary variables. In checking about, I came across this discussion: http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21432
My interest here is, as stated, consistency for brackets. It seems that, in a 4V, mirroring the components in the rear half of the carb to the front half "should" work even better than a manual/double pumper. Thoughts on any of this?
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my guess with a geared secondary is that it will fall flat on its face (bog) when punched at the starting light. hard to beat a vac. secondary.
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Those 1:1s might have been 660 center shooter carbs. They seem to work well on t-rams.
>my guess with a geared secondary is that it will fall flat on its face (bog) when punched at the starting light. hard to beat a vac. secondary.
Depends on the tuneup - I run a 650 DP on a 302, 4000 stall, 4:11 gear, 28" slick. 1.78 60'. No bog. On the 351s I run a home brew "750 DP" that flows about 840. Just hammer and go. The Mustang stalls about 4600, 1.58 60' time so no problems there. With a "street" type converter, say 2200, mild gears and regular timing setup - probably have some issue with a big carb. The issue with vacuum secondary carbs in brackets - Holley specifically - is that you need to control the secondary opening rate to be consistent. IMHO, the Eds weighted air vane is superior to the box stock spring arrangement on a Holley. A light spring can let the secondaries flutter on opening that that can kill your 60-330' or 330-660' differential times. Makes the car harder to dial. A Holley VS against a DP in most cases will show the DP to be more consistent, provided the rest of the car is working.
I also do not use timing curves - when you run high stall converters, you don't need one. 302 is locked at 36, 351Cs like 38 or 40. That does make idle more tuneable too. 10 degree start retard in the ignition and a good starter means the cars are easy to light.
One thing for sure running the t-ram taught me - at least on the Eds - both carbs need to be in sync. If the throttle settings were off a bit, they'd let you know. I set them both up the same. Testing showed they both needed "one step" - about 4% - up in calibration (from dead stock) both primary and secondary. To set the carbs, remove the linkage and plug in a vacuum gauge to the rear carb manifold port. Set mix and idle, then move to front. Set for same vacuum - that should theoretically set the primary throttles to the same opening. Only then connect the linkage so as not to disturb the primary shaft setting. I used 1:1 between the carbs so I backed off the secondary idle screw to keep it out of the mix. At that point, I was basically running a 600DP with additional vacuum secondaries. The important other difference between the Eds and Holleys is the weighted air vane. All 4 barrels on a 1406 open at once, just the upper air vane keeps the secondarys holding until air flow is sufficient. With the 302, that came about 5600 RPM. I could feel the car change attitude at that point, but cam limitations required the shift be at 6000 so I didn't care for that and there was no way to adjust it out.
Also, a single 650DP vs a t-ram 600 "dp" on a mild motor had a cost for the t-ram of about .1 (1.88+ vs 1.78) in the 60', no change in MPH so power production was the same.
Once the dragster is running on a single 4, I will put the t-ram back on the 302 and start testing the two 1850s I have to see how tuneable things can be. The holleys will also probably sensitive to the secondary static throttle setting, which experience says will have to be matched.
We have also run the Ed 1406 back to back against a Holley List 4776 600DP. The 600DP hits a little harder with good gear and stall, maybe worth +.05 60' and 1 MPH.
Side note - The t-ram got retired because it got real out of whack. I thought it was the carb(s) until I finally pulled the intake. The Weiand ram has very little meat below the ports and the GT-40 heads are a bit thin there too. The ram hit the Ultra Seal gaskets such that the sealing ring around the ports was just below the casting on the bottom of the ports. Like, just a hair. Sealed up for a couple of months of racing then started to let go - maybe bog this pass, maybe not the next one. Drove me nuts. So when it goes on back - glue. 8) But running duals is fun. "That's way too much carb!" Yea, watch me.
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The are a couple issues with the old gear drive 1:1 secondary conversion kits. The biggest issue is that dirt or just wear can cause the gear drive to stick open - not something you ever want to happen. The design also causes side loading of the throttle shafts, accelerating wear on the shafts and shaft bore and introducing a vacuum leak / fuel leak. Assuming we are talking a vacuum secondary carb, then you have the issue of not having a secondary pump shot to go with the secondary throttle blade opening. People "solved" that usually by using one of the kits that added long nozzles coming off the primary squirter and running to the secondary side. Of course now you're losing pump shot on the primary side so you would probably need to convert to a 50cc accelerator pump too. You can probably tell I'm not a real fan of the gear drive conversions - the possibility of the throttle sticking wide open is enough for me. Keep in mind those kits were originally designed before manual secondary ( Double Pumper ) carbs existed or became common. You'll notice the secondary linkage on all Holley carbs is designed with some thought to keep that from happening ( floating links or roller and with a positive method of shutting the secondary when the primary closes). A better solution if you were intent on using those carbs would be converting them to the 1:1 throttle shafts Holley uses on the List 4224 660 cfm Center squirter carbs. They are available, link here:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-20-3
You would still have the issue though of not having a secondary pump shot if you are doing this on a vacuum secondary carb, so it's not something I'd reccomend.
The thing is, now days there are no problems finding Double Pumper carbs or 660 Center Squirters, even good used ones if you are on a budget. You could also use the Holley 1:1 conversion on a generic Double Pumper.
Some things to consider though for bracket racing, or any Drag Racing is the combination of your race car and how you intend to race it - Is it a manual transmission or Automatic? What starting line RPM will you be leaving at? Foot braking or Trans Brake? My point here is that normally you are not leaving at a dead idle. You will usually be "in the throttle" even foot braking a mild race car at least some and to the point where the primary and secondary on a mechanical secondary carb are moving together, although maybe not 1:1. If you have a manual transmission and are leaving at a higher RPM you could very easily be getting close to 1:1 for the remaining throttle opening from staged to wide open. And then, many racers leave with the throttle wide open on the carb, but holding on the line with a 2-step rev limiter. In that case the 1:1 linkage is a moot point.
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I think they quit making those gear drives for a good reason and Kevin covered them. I had a 780 carb setup with one once and it worked fine as far as I could tell although it was unlikely better than the stock Vac.
I started with a pair of 660's on my engine then had the 850 baseplate conversion done. Car ran good but my Quick Fuel 600 vac carbs have better driveability, use less fuel and in back to back on several engines ran just as fast. Other than jet changes I never adjust anything on them. My car isn't inconsistent because of the carbs.
A 2 barrel would definitely be more consistent... Consistently slow ;D
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A 2 barrel would definitely be more consistent... Consistently slow ;D
So here's the thing. The local track has Friday night Test 'n' Tune, and there is also a year-long Bracket program with points accrued. I have seen where the slower cars are more consistent; no tire spin out of the hole or shifting, no fuel issues, etc. I'd be more interested in dead reliability over going "fast", as far as the points action goes. I also have a pair of the 350 cfm 2V Holleys, so I could get ginchy with that.
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Certainly takes a lot of variables out of the equation and then the Driver has to be good, which in my case isn't happening. Some people like the slow and steady but I'd be bored silly after one weekend even with a fast automatic car. Most tracks have some consistent winners week after week but a lot of those guys run double classes, and every chance they get. Too much work for me however. Build what makes you happy. I don't think having a 4 barrel is any handicap over a two although I know almost nothing about carbs.
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...People "solved" that usually by using one of the kits that added long nozzles coming off the primary squirter and running to the secondary side...The thing is, now days there are no problems finding Double Pumper carbs or 660 Center Squirters, even good used ones if you are on a budget. You could also use the Holley 1:1 conversion on a generic Double Pumper.
Some things to consider though for bracket racing, or any Drag Racing is the combination of your race car and how you intend to race it - Is it a manual transmission or Automatic? What starting line RPM will you be leaving at? Foot braking or Trans Brake? My point here is that normally you are not leaving at a dead idle. You will usually be "in the throttle" even foot braking a mild race car at least some and to the point where the primary and secondary on a mechanical secondary carb are moving together, although maybe not 1:1. If you have a manual transmission and are leaving at a higher RPM you could very easily be getting close to 1:1 for the remaining throttle opening from staged to wide open. And then, many racers leave with the throttle wide open on the carb, but holding on the line with a 2-step rev limiter. In that case the 1:1 linkage is a moot point.
Yes, these carbs have the nozzles going through the choke tower into the secondaries...Not on a budget; over 60 Holleys on the shelf, just sorting them and ideas...The car in question is very mild at the moment, 428CJ with 3.50 gears, .506/223ยบ, 2500 rpm footbrake, maybe 3800 lbs w/driver. Has MVB now, maybe should switch back to AVB and let it shift by itself for consistency. Application details are in my response to Dale. It sound like I should just make up a couple carbs and try them out when the time comes. Thanks for your input!
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Certainly takes a lot of variables out of the equation and then the Driver has to be good, which in my case isn't happening. Some people like the slow and steady but I'd be bored silly after one weekend even with a fast automatic car. Most tracks have some consistent winners week after week but a lot of those guys run double classes, and every chance they get. Too much work for me however. Build what makes you happy. I don't think having a 4 barrel is any handicap over a two although I know almost nothing about carbs.
I'm farting with two cars (slowly). This car is a Mercury intermediate. The other is a stick Mustang that will get a small block winder for TnT giggles. I have seen mention of too much trans/clutch/everything carnage from sticks behind big engines, so I'll not even try that deal other than street use. I do have about a dozen other stick cars, so I will hopefully not have to buy any pink shirts ever.
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FElony, since it was your original question I will say, I usually try to keep my answers on target and not drift off into fanciful tales of the past or unrelated advice, so let me know if I'm wandering off your point of interest - I agree with what you've observed, a lot of good bracket racers figure out what's important to win isn't necessarily about going fast. I also agree with Dale - everyone has a different level of what will hold their interest and still be fun lol.
So here's a few related thoughts if you're interested primarily in winning at bracket racing, and some of this will be a little wide of the carb topic, but for others following this thread too:
Get a log book and get in the habit of writing everything down. You can usually get one free from Summit or Jegs. Look at getting some kind of weather station. It doesn't have to be expensive or elaborate, even just a thrift store barometer / thermometer is better than nothing, but tracking the air is important. A lot of racers put a bunch of effort into their fuel system, remember your engine is using 12 times as much air as fuel, it's important. Some racers like to set their carb up rich and believe it makes the car more consistent as the air changes throughout the day ( the car won't change much if it's always a little rich ). Others like to set their jetting up so that the carb and car performance follow the predictions their weather station makes as closely as possible. Note, that jetting may not be what the dyno showed as optimum. I know you followed the hood scoop thread recently, another one of those things you just have to real world test. I've had friends that have found some performance there, others like Dale that didn't see much. I do think you can aid consistency by having a sealed hood scoop - it gives you the ability to utilize the outside air temp more to predict your ET. My Shelby does not have a sealed scoop, I'm ingesting mostly underhood air and that temp is considerable different that what's outside. I've done some testing in the past with remote thermometers trying to learn trends. Recently I've started using an intake air temperature gauge to try and find some better data, no conclusions yet.
It's not necessarily important for your car to be consistent to win at bracket racing if it's at least predictable ( consistent is easier though ). There are thousands of variables and you won't be able to control them all. Knowing what your car will do when you start winning rounds and you have to make runs closer together later in the day is important and a good thing to test before you hopefully get in that position. I've had times at big races where it was 6 hours between first and second round, but maybe only 10 minutes between the last couple. Transmission heat soak, rear end gear lube temp, brake performance can all change. NHRA sportsman racers routinely might only have a round or two a day over the weekend, then again, the final couple rounds minutes apart. I've also observed over the years, some racers finally make the final round, only to be tripped up by a hot starter, bad wiring, dead battery, etc. Those who are best prepared tend to do best. I was recently helping my racing buddy with some updates on his car. He does really well at the track, but tends to forget maintenance. We were fixing wiring that had been patched during some long ago track thrash but never done right when he got home. You get the idea.
My experience has been getting your car to run reasonably consistent will be much easier to do than learning to cut consistent reaction times or learning to judge the finish line.
One final thought right now - the Pro's ( like top fuel, funny car ) are racing, first to the finish line wins - bracket racing is a game played in cars. You'll find there are plenty of strategies employed like any game. Things like sand bagging. I mention that because it can be employed to throw off an opponent or as a way to cover up an inconsistent car. Or just a way to take out having to know exactly what your car will ET on any given run.
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two four barrels , four speed , low gear , shift by the seat of your pants , run a pro tree if you can , make three time trials and one elimination run , go to the pits , open the hood , answer all the questions about what kind of engine , what trans , shifter etc. talk to the crowd around the car and had a really good time . more to bracket racing than breaking out by .001 of a second .
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two four barrels , four speed , low gear , shift by the seat of your pants , run a pro tree if you can , make three time trials and one elimination run , go to the pits , open the hood , answer all the questions about what kind of engine , what trans , shifter etc. talk to the crowd around the car and had a really good time . more to bracket racing than breaking out by .001 of a second .
This.... right here :) :) :) :)
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two four barrels , four speed , low gear , shift by the seat of your pants , run a pro tree if you can , make three time trials and one elimination run , go to the pits , open the hood , answer all the questions about what kind of engine , what trans , shifter etc. talk to the crowd around the car and had a really good time . more to bracket racing than breaking out by .001 of a second .
Nice, and you're right. Lessee now...
Dufus: "Hey, nice Road Runner!"
FElony: "You have great eyesight! My Road Runner is at home, 35 miles from here."
Dufus: [scratches dandruff] "Huh, isn't this a Plymouth?"
FElony: "Plymouths don't have Mercury badges on the hood and trunk. However, you can usually spot Plymouth emblems in the rear view mirror."
Dufus: [confused, pulls underwear away from crack] "Well, what kind of Mercury is that? I never seen one of them before."
FElony:[looks around, lowers voice to a whisper] "What I have here, Mr. Dufus, is a nineteen-hunnert and sixty-nine base trim Montego Q-code four-twenny-eight automatic, which not only is verified to be one of 20 made that way, but was a legit Stock Eliminator car named "The Exodus" campaigned out of South Dakota in the 70's."
Dufus: "No shit?" [does crappy imitation of Marine 'hooyah', squints at motor] "Well, how come there's eight little coils screwed to your finned valve covers?"
FElony: "They're fake, so I can tell everyone it's an LS engine. Gets me chicks."
Dufus: [all-knowing look] "I hear ya, man, I hear ya."
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FElony, since it was your original question I will say, I usually try to keep my answers on target and not drift off into fanciful tales of the past or unrelated advice, so let me know if I'm wandering off your point of interest ...... Things like sand bagging. I mention that because it can be employed to throw off an opponent or as a way to cover up an inconsistent car. Or just a way to take out having to know exactly what your car will ET on any given run.
Jumpin' Jehosphat, you have more energy than I do today. All good stuff to consider. I wonder if I still have any of my old sandbags from my street racing days :o Thanks much.
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Certainly takes a lot of variables out of the equation and then the Driver has to be good, which in my case isn't happening. Some people like the slow and steady but I'd be bored silly after one weekend even with a fast automatic car. Most tracks have some consistent winners week after week but a lot of those guys run double classes, and every chance they get. Too much work for me however. Build what makes you happy. I don't think having a 4 barrel is any handicap over a two although I know almost nothing about carbs.
I'm second slowest in the NoE/Sportsman class (IHRA Modified, or "footbrake"). "NoE" same as IHRA "NoBox" meaning two step and trans brake are legal, delay box not legal. I use my foot, no other electronics. I dial 8.2x usually, most others are 6.50 and faster, couple run 5.60s~5.80s. I am 2nd in points, 1/2 round out of first. Winner race #4, .002 light in the final. Runner up Race #5, -.003 in the final. But then I've been doing this a while. :)
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another thing on Bracket racing is you are not chasing jets trying to get everything out of it on every pass ...... a lot of the boys out here set the carb slightly lean or slightly fat , which ever way makes the car most consistent through out the whole day .... and if your running methanol your car will hardly vary ET all day ...... the really good boys bag a little ET then try to decide whether to take the stripe or dump and try to break your opponent out ...... tons of strategy in bracket racing ...... I recall a staging duel onetime where one of the drivers on the line started reading a National Dragster newspaper right there on the pre staging beam waiting for the other guy to stage first
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i'll only wait so long, then i'll double bulb him.
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...... tons of strategy in bracket racing ...... I recall a staging duel onetime where one of the drivers on the line started reading a National Dragster newspaper right there on the pre staging beam waiting for the other guy to stage first
Most tracks now days utilize "Autostart" where the computer will start a countdown to activate the tree once both "pre-stage" and at least one "stage" light are activated, so staging duals are pretty much eliminated for bracket and sportsman competitors. The Pros still use a tree manually activated by a human starter I believe. But that brings up an excellent point, it's a good idea to check at each track you run how they run their program. The Autostart system can be adjusted in the programming for the amount of time it allows before the tree times out a competitor, different tracks can have different settings. I have seen a few racers that seem to use every bit of time, but it's rare. It's important info too for someone that "deep stages" to be sure they can get staged in time.
Another thing to check is how bye runs are picked at your track. I've seen some tracks that give the bye to the last person in staging for a session. Some pick a randon number in the tower, say #1 thru #10, then have the person running the staging lanes count back that number of cars for the bye - if you're never up at the front of staging you'll never get picked for the bye. In later rounds sometimes it can be picked by the racer with the best reaction time or closest to the dial in on the previous round. It's always nice to get an easy round win, especially if you're chasing points, and nothing wrong with bettering your odds at getting picked.
Another thing to check if the track uses and familiarize yourself with is "Cross Talk". It generally only applies to the classes that allow delay boxes, but some tracks do a run off between the "Box" class winner and "No Box" class winner for the big prize and Cross Talk may be on and can really throw you off if you don't know about it ( or how to have the track turn it off in your lane ).
Finally for now, it's a rule that you as the racer need to check if your dial in is correct before you pre-stage. Some tracks have a preview board near the burn out box so you can see the tower has your dial-in correct, but most don't - you need to look at the scoreboard ( some small tracks may not have that ), if you can't see the scoreboard ( hey, we're all getting older ) have a friend who can see it help you and alert you not to pre-stage if it's wrong. It may seem basic but I see it happen at least once each race weekend when someone stages on the wrong dial-in. The person reading your dial off the car may not be able to pick it out well in the suns glare, or the track owners relative working in the tower may be half blind, but it won't matter, "If you stage on it, you own it".
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...... I recall a staging duel onetime where one of the drivers on the line started reading a National Dragster newspaper right there on the pre staging beam waiting for the other guy to stage first.
I checked the NHRA rule book and there doesn't seem to be anything against loading a handgun propped on the steering wheel where your newspaper-reading competitor can see. Good racing tactic?
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Another thing to check if the track uses and familiarize yourself with is "Cross Talk". It generally only applies to the classes that allow delay boxes, but some tracks do a run off between the "Box" class winner and "No Box" class winner for the big prize and Cross Talk may be on and can really throw you off if you don't know about it ( or how to have the track turn it off in your lane ).
I checked the NHRA rule book and there doesn't seem to anything about activating a 1000-watt RF amplifier next to the "Box" driver. Good racing tactic?
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I think for now I'll just aim for some TnT action to get back in the saddle. I wrote the FElony/Dufus thing not just for giggles (failed), but to gauge any curiosity over my car (zero). True, it's not a Mustang or a Galaxie, so I guess I'll shay-shay it into the appropriate model-specific forum elsewhere. Hopefully I can get into the Bracket action next season and take advantage of some of the excellent input from you guys.
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Another thing to check if the track uses and familiarize yourself with is "Cross Talk". It generally only applies to the classes that allow delay boxes, but some tracks do a run off between the "Box" class winner and "No Box" class winner for the big prize and Cross Talk may be on and can really throw you off if you don't know about it ( or how to have the track turn it off in your lane ).
I checked the NHRA rule book and there doesn't seem to anything about activating a 1000-watt RF amplifier next to the "Box" driver. Good racing tactic?
...... I recall a staging duel onetime where one of the drivers on the line started reading a National Dragster newspaper right there on the pre staging beam waiting for the other guy to stage first.
I checked the NHRA rule book and there doesn't seem to be anything against loading a handgun propped on the steering wheel where your newspaper-reading competitor can see. Good racing tactic?
Actually I think both those things would be covered under section 1.3.1 Participant Conduct, Administrative Procedures, of the NHRA rule book. There are some non NHRA sanctioned tracks around the country where carrying a handgun may be advised though, your decision there. And I'm playing along with you here, although I'll admit I miss some people's obscure humor, that's my issue. I like all things Ford/Mercury/Lincoln/Meteor, more info on your car is welcome, pictures even better.
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... There are some non NHRA sanctioned tracks around the country where carrying a handgun may be advised though, your decision there.
This is Arizona. The local track IS NHRA, and you can bet they never check for firearms. However, because it is Arizona, if I loaded my gun on the starting line, the starter, the guys with the brooms, everyone behind me in the staging lanes, the girls working the concession stand, and 87% of the spectators would open fire on me, thus slowing my reaction time to a non-competitive level. I could only hope the guy reading the National Dragster would get caught in the barrage.
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I'm too lazy to go look it up, but I think there is a section about interfering with the opponents electronics.
This is beginning to sound like a modern day Krass and Bernie. Man I miss those guys!
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felony I liked your post , 428 roadrunner and plenty of dufus'
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this was early mid 2000's ..... track announcer and starter loved it ..... said it's hard to spice up a bracket race for the spectaters ...... Tracy was running for/in a points battle at Munci Indiana when his race car broke ,,,, not wanting to lose too many points he entered his daily driver S10 , his opponents where trying to take advantage of him not be able to cut a light in his street driver when the staging battle began ..... announcer and starter loved it ......
following week he installed a parachute on the bumper of the same S10 , bagged a 1/2 second on the dial , let the big car run him down and then pulled the shoot about 60ft from the finish line and almost won ..... another week his race car was fixed and it was just another boring bracket race :) for spectators anyway
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I can hear the whole conversation
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I'm too lazy to go look it up, but I think there is a section about interfering with the opponents electronics.
This is beginning to sound like a modern day Krass and Bernie. Man I miss those guys!
They are still in Car Crap every month!
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felony I liked your post , 428 roadrunner and plenty of dufus'
Thanks, gdaddy. Back in the 70's I had a '67 Cyclone GT with a 410-6V in it. Even then, the Dufuses (Dufii?) thought that was a Road Runner. I'm sure once the Ranchero is on the road again, I'll get comments about my El Camino. I think there's an appropriate comeback for those people. Oh yeah...
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/B55GFmDajeI/hqdefault.jpg)
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Previous track owner held dove hunts - track is inside the city limits but it's allowed for you to hunt on your own private property. Race car tuning with shot guns leaned up against trailers. Was that a backfire or a 12 gauge? Keep your pellets out of my pit, thanks. On the PA "Do not shoot over the track please".
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Previous track owner held dove hunts - track is inside the city limits but it's allowed for you to hunt on your own private property. Race car tuning with shot guns leaned up against trailers. Was that a backfire or a 12 gauge? Keep your pellets out of my pit, thanks. On the PA "Do not shoot over the track please".
I'm sure Felony doesn't mind this getting a little off topic, because this is good stuff! ;D
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Thanks, gdaddy. Back in the 70's I had a '67 Cyclone GT with a 410-6V in it. Even then, the Dufuses (Dufii?) thought that was a Road Runner. I'm sure once the Ranchero is on the road again, I'll get comments about my El Camino. I think there's an appropriate comeback for those people. Oh yeah...
the announcer at beaver started calling my el camino the el commode. 1978. it did kinda run shitty.
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I'm sure Felony doesn't mind this getting a little off topic, because this is good stuff! ;D
Because I've never ever no how no way steered anybody else's thread from "discussed" to, well, disgusting. Right? ;)
I had the '97 CVPI in the lanes for Trophy Brackets about 12 years ago, awaiting first round. I struck up a conversation with the guy ahead of me, who was racing a 5.0 Explorer. Turns out he has some AMC artillery at home, including an SS AMX. I said, "How come you're racing the Exploder then?" "It's more consistent", he says. Then I start reciting some of the CJ crap I've got, and he gets all jacked up about it. "I love CJ's, but how come you're running a Crown Vic?" "Cuz none of my garbage runs", I sez. We look at each other and start bustin' up. Big block tough guys.
Sure as shit, he mows down everyone with his 20-second ess yoo vee and takes first place. My 16-second bullet goes out in round two, right on schedule. I find out later on the Net that this particular person is/was a well-known racer that lives/lived in N. Phoenix. So, he's a legit driver, which makes me, um, illegitimate. Works for me.