FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: TravisRice on January 10, 2016, 11:34:48 AM
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Just interested in what it would take besides a lot of cubic dollars? This would also be coupled to a stick shift in a 3300-3400lb car.
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Are there any wedge heads that flow in the low 400's? I'd guess that's be the toughest part, then a sheet metal intake and all the cubes it can swallow.
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It is doable... there have been a few over that. A friend has one that made 918HP, has Blue Thunder CNC ported high riser heads, 4.375 bor Genesis block, 4.125 billet crank (496CI), aluminum rods, big compression, big roller cam, T&D race rockers, interestingly enough it has a cast HR tunnel wedge intake that is just port matched, 2 - 4150 carbs. The heads flowed right at 400 at .900 lift. It is in a 3000 pound car and 230'ish driver, went 8.78@151 with a 5 speed Liberty in a 66 Fairlane, shifting at 7800 and 8000 through the traps.
The Edelbrock "Pro Port" heads would be another option, with a good CNC program, there have been a few builds using these with similar results, they are medium riser castings but with the ports moved and offset rockers, sheetmetal intakes etc.
I would think you would want a big bore, 4.350 to 4.380 and either a 4.125 or 4.250 stroke crank, either heads and all the rest...
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Biggest bore possible, go with a 4.375" or bigger. I would also go with a 4.375" stroke crank for around 530 cubes. I would go with aftermaket high riser heads (Blue Thunder if you can find them), one of my high riser intake adapters (available soon, I think...), and a 2X4 sheet metal intake built to fit the adapter. Alternatively Edelbrock Pro-Ports from somebody like Blair Patrick, who has experience building 900 HP FEs. Figure on offset rockers and lifters on the intake side to make the port wide (Crower roller lifters, T&D race rockers). Cam it for peak power in the 7200 range, 7800+ RPM through the traps.
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We've done two 900+ wedge headed.........Scott Miller's Cougar weighs 3500 lb, and went 9.30's leaving off idle and drove on the street for a week at Drag Week. We only used .695 lift at the valve...........if it was drag-only, there is more there with .900 lift. The heads were really meant for high lift, but we wanted it to be reliable.
As far as combo, bigger is better, like the guys said. I personally don't like to go past 4.350 bore just so the head gasket as a better land between the cylinders. I do like a 4.350 bore X 4.400 stroke. Neither one of the 900+ strokers that I have done are that big, for one reason or another, but on a fresh build with that intent, inches are your friend, and 7500 rpm is probably the end of the usable range with strokes like that. With the heads and tunnel rams I use, the peak power would be just under 7000 rpm. The 4.400 stroker made a little over 800 ft/lbs......tricky with a stick shift, but doable.
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Thanks for the input. I know back 12 years or so ago that some of the Pro-nostalgia FE'S were making 830ish with Kuntz Edelbrock heads and 430 ish cubic inches. Now these were 8000 rpm + engines also. Those guys were knocking down 8.80s at 3200 lb with a g-force 4speed. Just wondering how much of an advancement cylinder heads and technology for the FE has come and how easy is it to make that kind of power now.
Ok, now what kind of power do you think can be made at 430-450 cubic inches. All out race motor for NSS on the east coast?
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I loved those pro nostalgia cars, best drag racing ever.. Dam shame they couldn't keep it alive. Always wanted to put one of those pro nostalgia FE's + Gforce in my 2400lb full tube chassis and see what it would do. Maybe tickle the high 7second range. The 445CID I'm trying to put together , I'm using alot of that now old school tech. Hard to believe it's been 10 - 12 years..
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Here are a couple links to some that Kuntz did. The first made 1000hp with a cast head, the second made 1112hp with a billet head. These videos never get old. ;D
https://youtu.be/OKfWGll-Umw
https://youtu.be/OF6yJscOp58
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At the end of second video,...... go to the FE Reunion video showing Paul Adams car, at 3.58 into it, go full screen and turn it up, great sound track Nothing like the sound of a big power FE..............Al
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Thanks for the input. I know back 12 years or so ago that some of the Pro-nostalgia FE'S were making 830ish with Kuntz Edelbrock heads and 430 ish cubic inches. Now these were 8000 rpm + engines also. Those guys were knocking down 8.80s at 3200 lb with a g-force 4speed. Just wondering how much of an advancement cylinder heads and technology for the FE has come and how easy is it to make that kind of power now.
Ok, now what kind of power do you think can be made at 430-450 cubic inches. All out race motor for NSS on the east coast?
I've done two 439 cube high risers that are 2+ hp per cube, closer to 9000 rpm than 8000, with mandated 715 cfm carbs and mandated dome pistons, both of which hold back potential power. It is EXpensive to do it, but 450 inches done the right way, with no rules, could make 1000 hp. Low budget on something like that would be +/- $50K.
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Travis,is your Galaxie going on a diet or is this a new toy coming together?
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Thanks for the input. I know back 12 years or so ago that some of the Pro-nostalgia FE'S were making 830ish with Kuntz Edelbrock heads and 430 ish cubic inches. Now these were 8000 rpm + engines also. Those guys were knocking down 8.80s at 3200 lb with a g-force 4speed. Just wondering how much of an advancement cylinder heads and technology for the FE has come and how easy is it to make that kind of power now.
Ok, now what kind of power do you think can be made at 430-450 cubic inches. All out race motor for NSS on the east coast?
I've done two 439 cube high risers that are 2+ hp per cube, closer to 9000 rpm than 8000, with mandated 715 cfm carbs and mandated dome pistons, both of which hold back potential power. It is EXpensive to do it, but 450 inches done the right way, with no rules, could make 1000 hp. Low budget on something like that would be +/- $50K.
Blair, thanks for the straight up answer. A friend of mine was looking to get back into Nostalgia Superstock racing last year. He looked at Paul Adams car and I am now positive that just might have been the deal of the century if you were 100% dedicated to just run that class. Last I saw that car advertised was for 65k turn key....... makes your point all the more valid. I am sure BES was proud to have thier name associated with that package. My same friend has been kicking the idea around of building an engine capable of putting my car into the 8.80-8.70 field. I feel pretty confident I could get the car in the 3300 range but just needed to know which route to take as far as putting a budget together to get there. I basically have told him I'll help him out as much as I can, I have offered my car if he wants to use it as my plans and direction have changed in the last year and a half. I've had it for sale off and on but little to no interest shown in a potential buyer. I did have one interested party last november, had the car wet sanded and buffed as well as the fiberglass bumpers chromed as part of the deal but he backed out after I did my part.
Thanks
Travis
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I've done two 439 cube high risers that are 2+ hp per cube, closer to 9000 rpm than 8000, with mandated 715 cfm carbs and mandated dome pistons,...
880+hp at 8500+ RPMs with a 715 cfm carb.
Just once, I'd like to be a fly on the wall during one of those engine builds.
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You have excellent ideas here and a roadmap, you might look at Mike C's build for some specific ideas. He is a real nice guy and a racer so he laid his combo out for FE guys piece by piece. One of Paul Adam's sectioned and welded Tunnel Wedge OE intakes is a nice part of his build. Maybe look up Dennis King's build. I was asked to share some of the internals. The goal there was 1,000 HP and some interesting tricks got used. Edelbrock full CNC Kuntz/Colvert heads were key, and they have tricks inside, valve relocation and so on. The Edelbrock guys were in the loop and a purpose built intake was worked into the head, cam,bore,compression equation. That build also changed some things like the firing order and more tricks.
At this point I would say, if you use only the best stuff, and get the best guys providing it all, and build a car that will take the power, hook, and move,,,well,,,you can spend over 100,000 and maybe as many hours....
And if you then have to sell the car, well, seeing a world class Hot Rod like Paul Adams for sale for so long at a great price doesn't make a lot of sense to some of us. Similar Hot Rods are around in the 40,000 plus range if you shop patiently.
Chasing the big number is awesome, love it. But if you have some Rat or Dodge to beat and want to do it less expensively, I have to toss out blowers on a HP per dollar line of reasoning
I logged on because you can spend close to 50,000 getting all of the best stuff, or, use less inches and a Pro Charger or a Roots blower for a lot less money.
Shucks, you can use an iron 428 block and heads, good crank and rods and made a bunch of power with 30 lbs of boost and race gas
Example 1, Shelby had me, Isky, Arias and friends over to see a 452 aluminum build on the dyno, with one centrifugal blower on it, basic USA style strong crank and rods, good fuel and we saw over 1,500 HP easy. That was in dependable not full kill mode//tune too. The engine went into a race COBRA. It pulled way over 1,500 HP and we were asked to keep that number quiet.
I'd agree with guys like JAY shooting for 2,000 on gas with a big SOHC
So I think I see that you want to get to the ultimate power range for carbs on an FE, which is generally over 900 and pushing toward 1,000 HP from what we see. For half the money or less, you might look in to force feeding it old school
Blowers flat work on pushrod engines and we had a saying a Holman Moody Stroppe. ''If all else fails, put a blower on it''.
Most older guys would then point to FORD hanging a Paxton blower on a 57 312 T Bird and say,,they were FAST !. They were fun to leg out, no doubt. Then,those cars got tweaked to really run with Hot Rod tricks. . Remember those Birds went out to Bonneville and punched their way in to the 200 MPH Club pretty fast,,, Add race gas, a cam, more jet, more blower over drive and they'd scoot.
Some people also forget that guys like Ak Miller/Gus Davis/Stroppe then Gale Banks did hundreds of very reliable blown FE's. Perfectly streetable in many cases. Many ran well on pump gas too.
I was lucky to get to help Dyno twin blown big blocks at Stroppe for and with the genius engineer Gale Banks. We pulled 1,100 ft lbs of torque in a manner that could live all day in an endurance setting. And at only 468 cubes and with no inter cooling and one blow through Holley 4 V. One 850 DP with tricks (and no 4 corner idle circuits,,,he hee)
I have a book we all helped on, I should re release it. It is called how to Supercharger an FE By Ak Miller
He and us and friends came up with a perfectly reliable and fast 1 turbo then 2 turbo system for FE's that used a lot of stock internals, but made nice, broad power for very reliable street use.
We did a lot of F250s that way, and many non shock tower door cars. It was hilarious to leg a f250 that could smoke the tires as long as you wanted and blow the doors off a lot of Sports Cars and so on. Those blown FE trucks ruined a lot of Porche guys day and ego back when. Just cracked us up to beat a super car with a truck.
I just wanted to throw out supercharger as a cost effective, fast and fun path to power too.
When you study blown combos, there is a sharp line to ponder too. Are we married to a steel Crower or Carillo style rod because we plan some street heat, or a boat use, and endurance type design, or, can we use a fat tough forged aluminum rod that Fuelers trust to 8-9-10,000 Horsepower. I have worked on blown or injected fuel stuff for decades and having a pinned rod insert, wide throw, and a smaller diameter rod journal is key. I don't think the best steel rods around would survive the burnout alone on a blown fuel car, but they made over 1500 ft lbs of torque with a SHELBY block and heads Summer before last. So an FE with steel rods and a lot of boost is practical, given state of the art fuel delivery, boost regulation and intercooling, but cheaper, easier quarter mile power is often easier with aluminum rods.
I hope more guys think through how fast a blown alcohol FE can be too. These combos are so easy on parts, can run for seasons with out huge expense, and make big big power. Look at the Nostalgia Blown Gassers out there changed over to alky.
After a long drought, it have been wonderful to see the big 3 design, perfect and sell so many fast new Hot Rods with blowers and turbos for a lot of us. So if Detroit came back around to boost, big time, it seems more Hot Rodders are doing this too.
Out here in California we have a lot of Hot Rodders who drive stuff all year and not on Sunday necessarily. Could be the weather or fun factor, who knows. What is common is to see blown cars running down the Coast Route 1 at least once a day somewhere, and more often on special days. And guess what? I have seen a hundred Ferrari's, Tuner porschee's, Lambos, Modified Bmers, and brand new BMW's.Merecedes and AUDI's on the side of the road, broken, or on a flatbed truck headed back for an expensive massage. But in all my years I have never seen one blown Hot Rod stuck on any road anywhere out here ? Why? A roots blown big block is really reliable if simply tuned right and maintained. AND, such Hot Rods usually have an owner who keeps all of the little things happy and serviced. Hot Rodders usually take great care of their ride and it shows.
I am going to use the latest SHELBY Mustang all tuned up super Snake style as my last example. They are sneaking around town at around 1,000 HP on pump premium....of course you are intercooled and have very precise EFI and detonation sensors and so on.
What is hilarious is how many super car guys are getting a nice tail whoop-in by them.
And what is really funny is, so many Porche's are getting beat by Mustangs, Camaros, Dodge HEMIS and so on, there is a really big 'tuner Porche' gang growing out here. One of our former big shops is now strictly Tuner Porsche's. Rich guys adding more blower, cubes, and so on to keep up. And it is a good business because they blow them up a lot. My neighbor grenaded his in about 20 hours of legging it. Spit rods and everything.
Maybe kick it around pal. Boost. Old guys pushed 390s, 406s then 427s, usually stroked,but pretty stock, into the 8s then 7s in the 60s on gas with a 6-71, and they were not even stripped blowers, just fit tight.
Thanks
PS; Thanks Jay for running the best FE Forum on the net. Smart, logical,productive, fair, rules based, well moderated and polite.
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Tom... you need to read before you post. See post #5 where he says "for NSS on the East Coast". They have rules... blowers, nitrous, etc. aren't allowed. N/A only. You could have saved all your valuable time it took to write up your "essay".
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Howdy
I took his question as Normally aspirated(N/A) excluding a SOHC, as it states
Then he asks;
Just interested in what it would take besides a lot of cubic dollars? This would also be coupled to a stick shift in a 3300-3400lb car.
I should explain maybe. I read the question then reply usually. Then, I can honestly reply without stealing the other posters homework to some extent. And it doesn't look like a 'Parrot' post.
That was all I saw,,,the East Coast Nostalgia angle rules out a blower, sure, but for purposes of ET and MPH, I still think he could really open a new performance door by going puffed some day.
Early on I knew a lot of carb only purists and that is great. Many just thought that anything blown was way too hard on parts, way to finicky, way too radical and way too not stock. Every one of them who went blown stayed there for a while and had fun.
I always really respected and enjoyed both am not a blower guy who looks down at carbs guys in any way. Many blown guys do look down at carbs for this or that reason and I don't get it. It is all a challenge and Hot Rodding.
This poster seems to have the need for speed, why else does he want the highest FE combo possible? If he has that kind of itch, he might be ready to step up I was thinking, even if he makes exhibition passes or singles. It is not as if he is giving up some huge purse or sponsorship I was thinking too.
Thanks just the same. I hope he does in fact get to his power goal and have a blast.
How many of the posters here have run a blown car or want one some day ? Not trying to pivot but I bet a few of you guys would have a lot of fun too. I just wondered.
Last afterthought is, simple blown gas parts usually don't get exploded into bits on mere gas. Fuel, yes, va va voom. So you can play with the stuff and resell it for real good money too. It is tunable up and down, so former full race stuff gets slowed down to cruise a lot too.
Thanks again
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Tom... you need to read before you post. See post #5 where he says "for NSS on the East Coast". They have rules... blowers, nitrous, etc. aren't allowed. N/A only. You could have saved all your valuable time it took to write up your "essay".
Actually, it's much simpler than that, Thor. The thread TOPIC (as stated in the main subject line) is N/A....as in NO blowers. Seems pretty straight forward to me.
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I am familiar with the build / combo of Mike C. and his accomplishments. Chatting with him is what made me realize the extreme swing differences in the different Super Stock Association's. Mainly the engine displacement rules. Heck some NSS rules even allow the 385 series to run. I am only interested in the N/A deal. If I were to go blown, super-charged, pro-charger, or even turbo I believe my efforts would be better suited with the 385 series engine as it would not fit into any Super Stock class on the east coast anyways and believe the budget could be closer to $25 - $30k range with more wedge cylinder head options that flow in the upper 400's to the lower 500 cfms.
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385 series engines in a NSS class would mean that they would only be interested in the (visual) of a race car.Kind of sad really.
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Ok Travis, I get the picture better now. I suggested force feeding it when you referred to cost in cubic dollars. When you push many engines to win at the very top of the class, they can eat springs, cams, and other parts faster than many blown combos, and the parts are up there. If you have that 50K more or less, or some of the parts, great.
An FE can be reliably built at over 1,000 HP with a SHELBY or POND block and good steel crank, maybe a Sonny Bryant or Crower, Velasco, and similar, for insurance. I was thinking, Mike C runs a SHELBY block, and you will need a good block and crank, so once you have the solid block and crank, you can change it over to go blown some day too.
Sure, a 385 is a easy and less costly path, but it is not the true path for our 60s muscle cars. But for Lima Bean,,,(That name makes me hungry for some delicious southern style food btw), many people get your point.
Out West we DO allow a 385 in Nostalgia Super Stock. The promoters told me that the fans don't care as long as the old cars go down the track and also that they were concerned about cost. Sure there are other reasons
Some real nice guys run them just to be able to keep their old Ford racing. They are priced out of the 9 second FE power basically.
But this is where my head spins at times. Rules can start fights. Saw that elsewhere. We did an essay, several gas pals and me, to ask how on earth the Mid West Nostalgia guys ban all Mustangs? That is not at all how the Gas classes were out West in the 60s? and Stroppe, shucks, we did 12 Mustangs in a row for the Ford Drag Team? All fit the rules and all won and did well. We did a lot of AFX Mustangs too?
Shucks, my pal Tommy Grove who is a true true Ford Hero of ours, he ran the Charlie Horse in 65-6 and it flat flew with an FE? Talk to Bobby Spears and so many more.
So rules can be arbitrary I guess, or political some say, so I guess you have to follow them to run that series or do your own thing. We like that a lot. Pretty much pure Hot Rodding to some of us.
Many of us just build what we like. We helped a team do a 709 inch Boss Hemi a while back, sure, it did not fit a class in a T Bird but it flew, turned heads and was cool
And some guys missed this fact, I helped old Dyno Don do some 'T Bolt Clones' he called them. The fact is, Don made the same move and used a big 385 to just get the ET and MPH up there but look original everywhere outside. On the track, these cars looked like T Bolts. Pop the hood and there is a big old 385 wedge. He would have loved to build a similar level FE but we priced it out several times. The full cost was 3 times almost and moslty aftermarket parts. Don did like the fact that his Crate Engine based engines were almost all genuine Ford and he liked to support Ford and SVO too. So that is a factor for some guys.
Lot's to consider
Later, Don had a 385 series close to Pro Stock engine in a heavy car running low 7s. Again, he had a goal of low ET with an eye toward cost.
For me, I have a ton of FE stuff because I love FE's. 385 stuff got done at Holman Moody Stroppe. This stuff is still available so I collect just a little to build off of
I usually have some new SHELBY blocks stuffed away so I can help my FE pals. Waiting for the next 2 soon they say. Point there is, we did one out to 4.440 for a big blown Fairlane last year. But as Blair said, the land or gasket area between the bores is real slim. That is your call.
But for me, I like an FE car to have an FE in it. That is my first choice. It just looks and feels right and it takes you back in time.
I do have a new HM Medium Riser blower intake for me.....(Jokin now)....if you need to borrow it some day,,,to put the hurt on some Bowtie Boy....hee heeee
Have fun a good luck.
I plead guilty to having always liked blowers a lot too.....
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... A friend has one that made 918HP, has Blue Thunder CNC ported high riser heads, 4.375 bor Genesis block, 4.125 billet crank (496CI), aluminum rods, big compression, big roller cam, T&D race rockers, interestingly enough it has a cast HR tunnel wedge intake that is just port matched, 2 - 4150 carbs. The heads flowed right at 400 at .900 lift. It is in a 3000 pound car and 230'ish driver, went 8.78@151 with a 5 speed Liberty in a 66 Fairlane, shifting at 7800 and 8000 through the traps.
I would think you would want a big bore, 4.350 to 4.380 and either a 4.125 or 4.250 stroke crank, either heads and all the rest...
I was involved in that particular build to an extent - supplied block, heads, intake, camshaft, crank & some other misc parts. That formula is exactly how I envisioned a maximum effort FE project, and it remains the highest horsepower N/A FE I have been involved in. Bore large, stroke long enough to allow some RPM and a nice piston & ring package, cubic inches as large as I thought the heads would support. As Blair mentioned - its a combination thing where you try to optimize around a lot of variables and inherent FE limitations. The finish builder on that particular engine went with an aluminum rod, and I expected the peak RPM range to be a bit higher - so there is still some room to grow on that package.
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If i hit tonight LOL , i want this engine