FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: Yellow Truck on February 28, 2015, 07:35:43 PM
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New to FE Power, not quite as new to FEs. I have been a member at Ford-Trucks for some time, but was pointed over here as some of the deep expertise in FEs have left that forum.
I have a 69 F100 4WD, it had a 360 and I had a 390 rotating assembly and was looking for some better heads when I found a 410 near me at a decent price. It has C8AE-H heads with stock valves and rockers, but it has been ported and intake matched. The guy who built it is timid about cams, so it has a basic "RV" cam -
- Lift: 484 – 510
- Duration: 270 – 280
- Duration at 0.05: 204-212
- Lob: 107-117
The truck has headers and a 600 cfm Edelbrock. I'll post the rear wheel dyno numbers when I figure out how on this forum, but in a nut shell the truck is a bit of as street rod, not a work truck, and with an NP435 in it, you really only have three gears to work with (1st: 6.68/2nd: 3.34/3rd: 1.66/4th: 1), so you are usually in the wrong gear and the power range from the engine is pretty narrow. I'm looking for better power above 4,500 RPM, I don't need to pull stumps, so I can give up some low end torque for a better curve. It doesn't need to be a smooth daily driver, some chop is acceptable.
I'm no expert at cams, but I'd like to make sure I'm using the best info. I'm going to pull the motor to tackle some oil leaks and give us better access to the motor, and I'm going to do a partial tear down so we can take some measurements for spring height, spring spacing, inspect the cam journals etc. While we have it apart is there anything I should pay attention to regarding cam selection? I should mention that I'd rather not pull the heads for machining to fit bigger springs, but if it is worth it I would consider it. Might get hardened valve seats at the same time.
I've been speaking to Lunati about a hydraulic roller cam - this is their suggestion for a custom grind:
- LSA: 112
- Overlap: 6
- Intake Center Line: 108
- Valve Timing: Exhaust 51/-1 Intake 7/43
- Duration: 296
- Duration @ 0.050: 230
- Valve Lift: 568
- Lobe Lift: 328
Advice on what I need to know, or on cams generally welcome.
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Pretty sure if you put that cam in you will have to change springs.
No need to machine the spring pockets though for bigger springs.
Normally you fit the exhaust for hard seats and just run the stock iron seat.
You may want to look at stepping up to Edelbrock heads for a budget up grade.
Or Felony or BBM for serious up grade.
The C8 well a decent head for a stock build they fall short for a Hot Rod build.
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Welcome to the forum. More info would be helpful, such as are you planning to run on pump fuel, do you know the compression ratio of the engine, what intake manifold are you running, what is the diameter of the valve springs you have now, are the rockers adjustable ( I assume not), etc.
First thing I think about when picking a cam is what is the compression ratio of the engine. Cam and compression have to be matched for best performance. And, unfortunately, relying on what some manual says or what the previous engine builder says is not a good way to settle on your compression ratio. Best thing to do is to pull one of the heads and measure the combustion chambers, and do the same thing on one of the cylinder with the piston at TDC. If you are going to pull the motor, I'd pull at least one head and do that. Once you know the real compression ratio of the engine, its going to be easier to pick cam duration using a DCR (Dynamic Compression Ratio) calculator.
A couple other random comments would be to go with the roller cam setup if you can afford the hardware, because a roller (hydraulic or mechanical) will make more power than an equivalent flat tappet. Make sure you get good lifters (Morels seems to be the favorites), and rocker shaft end stands that support the part of the rocker shaft on the FE that is normally cantilevered out each end (Precision Oil Pumps makes a nice set). And I'd dump that Edelbrock carb for a good Holley. Just my opinion on that one...
Good luck on the project and keep us updated on your progress - Jay
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Thanks for the input and the welcome. I assumed that the CR is 10.5 to 1 since the heads are stock inside and that is the published CR for a 410. Pulling a head is not a bad idea. I won't order any parts until we have done some measurements, so one more measurement is not a bad idea. I am going hydraulic roller, no point in going to the trouble and skimping a few hundred bucks on the cam.
I plan to measure the spring pockets to make sure we can take the beehives that Lunati recommends, but still not settled on a Lunati (need the numbers no matter what cam we choose).
I recall it was a 390 GT intake, but the truck is parked in a friend's garage, and I don't recall the intake number, I'll get it soon. For short stints at 6,000 RPM I didn't think the rocker stands were needed.
I'm not an expert on cams or carbs, so I'm curious what a Holley would give me that an Edelbrock won't.
One point to make, being a 4WD it is heavy, so it will never be a true hot rod, and any speed over 70 mph it is an unguided missile and there isn't much you can do to make the handle much better. I just want better 30 to 70 performance. Also with the 33 inch tires, unless you launch it over 3,000 and stay stuck in it the wheels hop like mad, so you have to be a little cautious on the launch unless you are planning to really break the tires loose.
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Wondering if you had a budget in mind for your truck? Maybe an intake change would be in order for performance over 4500 rpm. End stands are cheap insurance against failure. Also a holley will always make more power than an edelbrock. If you go to the member project section, look at turbohunters post titled intro and current project. Very cool truck, well thought out, with gobs of power. Lots of pics and some cool video as well. Sounds like that's kinda what your after.
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Jay, I forgot to mention it has non-adjustable rockers. Fastback 427, this year I was just going to do the cam and supporting parts. I may think carb too, as that is not a big deal, but I was not thinking about the intake. My next major spend will probably to swap out the NP435 for a T19 with a 4:1 first gear and full syncro, but that requires an new transfer case and adapter, and buying it as a package will run over $3,200, plus shipping and we are getting hammered on the US/Canadian exchange rate right now, so I was going to stop at around $1,000 to $1,400 on parts.
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That is an excellent thread. I picked up some good information, particularly the fix for the wheel hop issue. I had asked for suggestions from the members at Ford-Trucks and got nothing. I also asked some local performance guys. $99 is a steal to make that go away. I also like the idea of an NP205 and overdrive on the NP435.
But I'll start on the cam. I'll post more when I have the engine apart. It will take a few weeks because it is winter here and I need to clear out some room in the garage before I bring the truck over. Also had to tell my long suffering wife that I'm kicking her car out. She took it well.
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My next major spend will probably to swap out the NP435 for a T19 with a 4:1 first gear and full syncro, but that requires an new transfer case and adapter, .....
Just curious, but is the transfer case married to the tranny on a F150? My F250 has a divorced transfer case and would only require a reworked short shaft to mate to a T19.
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Welcome over here, glad you could make it here ;D
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A little late, but Welcome and another northerner.
I going revisit the head.
Your C8 heads are low performance smog heads from a long time ago.
To take advantage of the smallish hyd roller you will need springs and hold down gear.
Possibly some valve work and definitely some porting.
I know you said they were ported and intake matched, but to the 390 GT intake which is the smallest
intake they ever put on an FE in a car. It's an S. It runs out of gas at 4500 rpm. All pun intended.
Edelbrock sells a cylinder head with Hyd roller capable springs, yes there jobber but for this small roller
they should do nicely.
You will be hard pressed to get those C8 heads ready for Hot Rod duty for the cost of the Edelbrocks.
Even considering the exchange rate.
Smmits ad.
http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/edl-60065
Edit: Spring numbers. Pretty Sure. ::) Part# 5845 Seat 150lbs Open @ .580" 420lbs
You need a much better intake than the 390 GT. And I love 390 GT's. lol
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+1 on Howie's intake manifold comments. If your manifold has the "S" cast into it, it is a primary drag on your power. Even before the heads, I'd replace that intake with a better one, probably the Edelbrock Performer RPM.
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I don't know about the F150s, but the F100s used a married set up. As to the comments on the intake I will get the numbers. Thinking about heads.
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Hi Yellow Truck
Welcome to the forum.
The level of expertise here is very deep and the atmosphere is respectful. You'll dig it.
Couple of comments and questions.
First, I know you said "hot rod" but how about a few more specific thoughts on what you want the truck to be. This will help with choices for the drive train as well as engine.
Is it long or short bed?
I'm a Holley man from the bottom up because of adjustability and ease of maintenance. Just a well thought out carb.
Your gear choices are varied when you have a direction to go. For instance, I have a dual sticked NP 205 so far, so I have a low and hi rear drive range for my NP 435. Soon I'll add a Gear Vendors overdrive and double my gear choices again. My truck is a trail truck that has to drive long distances for hunting trips and work trips.
Try to get a truck personality in your head then go baby.
Looking forward to your pics and build.
Good luck
Marc
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I'm with Jay on a teardown and a check of the real c/r. Long ago, I ran into one situation where the owner swore that a used car he bought had X c/r and the engine was 'stock' . After a cam swap, the engine never performed as expected and the swore it was the cam or something else. After a top end teardown, the original owner apparently had swapped the near 11:1 OEM pistons (it was a '68 Z-28 engine) to, no kidding, approximately 8.5:1 pistons to avoid premium gas!
Especially with older engines, who knows how many rebuilds it may have had over the years.
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I thought I'd show what I started with, and what it looks like now. Hot rod is not the right term, Marc. It is not exactly a show truck as I will carry stuff in it, but as you can see, it is not a working truck anymore. I liked the video you posted, that is more or less what I'm looking for. Mine needs to run as good as she looks.
It can be a edgy, a little rough at idle, but that is not the goal. I want to be able to step in it and have pull really hard up near to 6,000. Drive train will wait for another day. I am going to order the kit to stop the wheel hop. If I can get to the numbers you showed I'd be happy, I'd also be happy with the way it seemed to pull. I would be willing to give up some drivability as we don't have much of a traffic problem here in Calgary.
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And I found a small version of my rear wheel dyno results from after I dropped the 410 in. For context I had completed the rebuild of the body and still had a 360 in it, found the 410 and just did a straight swap.
I am going to pull the heads and do the measuring. I have a friend with a lot of experience who is itching to do it and do it right, so we will tear down the top, get the measurements, and then decide how to proceed.
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This attachment thing is driving me batty. Hope this works.
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Nice pickup! I am a truck guy too, I will be watching your build. No such thing as too much power, stock is boring! Just so you can compare, here is a dyno sheet of my 428 when it was mostly stock. I have since installed a complete Edelbrock top end kit and hope to put it back on the same dyno this spring.
[imghttp://(http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah211/NIsaacs1/scan0027_zps1b8cbc0d.jpg) (http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/NIsaacs1/media/scan0027_zps1b8cbc0d.jpg.html)][/img]
Nick
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Cool truck Paul.
Congrats.
Getting power is not a problem. Only limited by your wallet and/or time.
You're prolly going to have to go with the 435 for a trans unless you want to spend and fab a bit since you have a 4x. I'm not aware of a swap yet that will work with the FE and a married transfer case.
There may be something out there though. All the 5 speed swaps I've seen we're 2 wheel drive.
I've always wondered if a top loader could be made to work. I know that you can do a Jeep retrofit on them and put the shift lever on top (I have one) I don't know about the tail section yet getting it mated to a 205. Maybe someone else could chime in on that.
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Nick,
Your curve looks a lot like mine. Not surprising since they have the same crank. My plan is get it out, get it apart, measure everything, and come back here with the data for a consult. Then I'll order some parts. I'm keeping an eye on the classifieds - there are some intakes for sale but I'm not interested in them (Edelbrock Streetmaster, a Weiland, and an Offy 2X4). Then I'll order some parts - I am going with a hydraulic roller - get them installed, measure the pushrod spacing (my buddy has a tool for this), get them ordered, fix some oil leaks, and then get it installed. I will then set it up on a dyno and I'll post the new results.
Marc, Novak out of Utah quoted me $3,200 for a T19 to Dana 20 combo using an adapter. I decided to go with engine upgrades first, thinking A) I'd like more power, and B) it wouldn't cost as much this year. A) is till true, beginning to think B) may be a misunderstanding! Once the engine is out who knows where I'll stop.
The Dana 20 is cool because it comes with separate front and rear L-N-H shifters. I always wanted a front wheel drive F100. The T19 is attractive because it is a true 4 speed.
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Don't underestimate the street master intake, very good if the price is right.
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Nick,
Marc, Novak out of Utah quoted me $3,200 for a T19 to Dana 20 combo using an adapter.
The Dana 20 is cool because it comes with separate front and rear L-N-H shifters. I always wanted a front wheel drive F100. The T19 is attractive because it is a true 4 speed.
I talked to Novak when I was doing mine and never knew about the T-19 with the 4.02 first gear.
That sounds sweet.
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Next year.
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The guy with the Edelbrock Streetmaster thinks it is sold (to a guy in Kansas, wonder if he realizes it is not in the U.S.), but he has a Weiand 7282 for sale as well. I don't know anyone who has run this intake. Obviously, the question is in the context of a 410 built for a strong street application.
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I think that intake is similar to an Edelbrock Performer, about like a stock intake only lighter. If you go with a set of ED heads you might want to use the ED rpm, it don't have the exhaust crossover. The Streetmaster and Holly street dominator are both good intakes but have the crossover, not a big issue, but some, if you end up with ED heads, they don't use the crossover either.
Nick
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The guy with the Edelbrock Streetmaster thinks it is sold (to a guy in Kansas, wonder if he realizes it is not in the U.S.), but he has a Weiand 7282 for sale as well. I don't know anyone who has run this intake. Obviously, the question is in the context of a 410 built for a strong street application.
The Weiand is a HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE intake. Don't waste your money on that one! On the other hand, for a 400-450 HP engine it is really tough to beat the Edelbrock Streetmaster. If you can't find one, buy an Edelbrock Performer RPM, which is just as good.
From my book, dyno results for a few intakes:
428CJ with Weiand 7282: 354.6 peak HP, 419.3 peak torque
428CJ with Edelbrock Streetmaster: 412.8 peak HP, 477.7 peak torque
428CJ with Edelbrock Performer RPM: 407.3 peak HP, 484.1 peak torque
390 Stroker with Weiand 7282: 432.1 peak HP, 448.4 peak torque
390 Stroker with Edelbrock Streetmaster: 484.7 peak HP, 512.7 peak torque
390 Stroker with Edelbrock Performer RPM: 504 peak HP, 505.5 peak torque
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Thanks, Jay. I had read less than flattering reviews, but I like data over opinions. I'll try and get him to sell me the Streetmaster. Seems to be in ok shape.
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Confirmed the heads and intake:
Heads are C7AE-A
Intake is a C6AE 9425-G with a big "S" on it. Nothing special in either case.
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The "S" on that intake stands for "sucks" ;) Dyno results with the S intake on the same two engines mentioned previously:
428CJ with Ford S intake: 355.2 peak HP, 469 peak torque
390 stroker with Ford S intake: 418.5 peak HP, 489.9 peak torque
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That head thing again
The C7AE head was the stock head used on my beloved 1967 GT 500 S code Fairlane.
Ya the Mustang and Shelby also.
Other wise called the GT head.
And they are the worst head ever used on an FE.
They are even lower on the pole than the C8's
They have the smallest ports of any head and you could grind on them for a month
and they will still suck even worse then the S intake that came with them. lol
If you are on a strict budget then I would look for a decent set of C6 or earlier or a set of D2's.
And work up from there.
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I love the fact you have numbers, Jay. BTW, went on line to see about buying your book. Can't get it on Amazon in Canada, must be subject to the Federal restrictions on exporting strategic technology!
Any way, I'm hearing you.
I'm still going to get it in the garage and get the top apart, then I'll be asking for some recommendations. I think I need to think heads, valve train, intake, and carb. I didn't plan on it, but life is too short to avoid having fun. I will think about a budget.
I will report back once we have looked at what we have.
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Jay's book is available direct from him right here on the website.
http://www.fepower.net/GFEIC.html
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Another great read is Barry Rabotnick's rag.
Filled with great tips and LOTS of kool wish list items.
http://www.amazon.ca/How-Build-Max-Performance-Ford-Eng/dp/1934709158/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1425480552&sr=8-4&keywords=ford+fe
Also available from his spider web site along with all those wish list items.
http://www.survivalmotorsports.com/index.html
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While looking around for used parts I came across a 427 side oiler block, crank, and connecting rods for sale. The block has been bored .030, I have read that the 427 blocks don't tolerate boring very well, in fact I recall reading that a 427 that requires boring must be sleeved.
Clearly this is a more expensive option than redoing the top end of my 410, but how do you put a price on fun. Question - what is the tolerance on a 427 for boring?
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A .030" over block would not be a deal breaker, but there are so many things to think about
when stepping up to a 427 block.
Cost and then cost to get it ready to use.
You can buy a new block for a very fair price. imo
Those BBM blocks are bad ass and pretty much ready to use.
The crank and rods are a moot point. You have a better crank than the 427 crank and
most likely rods equal too or better.
So you are really only buying the block so you have to take that into consideration.
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You can use the 410 crank in the 427 and get
i think 445 ci like they did back in the day
when there was no stroker kits for sale
but sonic test the block if possible before
you buy it
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He is asking $1,800 for it, which is not a bad price, but condition is everything. It is a 7 hour drive away, so inspecting it is not trivial. I'll ask a few more questions before I commit to the drive.
I was thinking about putting my bottom end into it. Hard to not want a side oiler.
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I've got a 427 sideoiler block that went .060", made 675 HP, and is still running fine. Its one of the dyno mules I described in my book, and the sonic numbers were scary, but the engine has given me no trouble, even after hundreds of dyno pulls. $1800 is a decent price, and probably worth the trip. If you decide to go, make sure you bring some way to measure the bore to make sure it is only .030" over, check for cracks on the deck of the block and in the main cap bolt holes, and imperfections in the bore that may require a big overbore. You can sleeve the blocks if necessary, but you can't sleeve two adjacent cylinders, because they will crack between the two sleeves at the deck, and you will lose coolant there.
If you buy it, figure on getting it sonic checked so that you know what you've got.
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Thanks guys, I'll see if he responds to me.
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If at all possible have him send you pictures of it.
Specifying top, bottom, both sides, front and back.
Post them here and you will get a lot of input from the brain trust here. ;D
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Back to plan "A", the seller answered a few questions, then wrote that he had just sold it. I will keep my dream of owning a side oiler for another day.
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I've been quiet while I got the truck out of winter storage, got organized, and yesterday got the engine out. It is an oil leaking pig. As I posted earlier, this engine was bought as is, so neither I nor my friends really know how it was assembled. I will be looking for advice on gaskets etc. later once we have completed the tear down and are in possession of more facts. I have one immediate question: You can see from the photo there is a lot of oil around the breather. I don't understand this and wonder if it is evidence of a deeper problem. I thought perhaps it indicated something under the rocker cover, but we pulled the cover and it looked fairly normal. Also pulled the plugs (E3s) and they all showed a light grey surface and a couple showed a very light reddish brown discolouration. They were very consistent.
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Could be blow-by, due to stuck or worn rings. I'd do a 8 cylinder compression test (warm, throttle wired wide open) and if you have the tools or can borrow same, a leakdown test. Low psi readings = time for new rings and maybe pistons too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crankcase
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Bob - we were thinking the same thing. Too late for a compression test, engine is OUT. Bit hard to diagnose blow-by with the engine out, but was wondering if it seems excessive - the truck has 4 years of light summer driving on the engine - and if it is excessive, is there is anything else any one has seen cause it.
We are taking the top off, probably going with new heads, valve train, cam and intake. My friend is an experienced heavy diesel mechanic and has built some excellent gas engines, including an over the top 460 in his 68 F100, but this is his first FE.
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Could also be due to the 50 year old gasket on that cap. Is there even a gasket still there? Is it torn or rock hard? The tangs on the cap also get deformed over the years and the don't hold tight, is the cap a tight fit on the valve cover?
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Kevin, it is an after market cap, here is the bottom of the cap. It has the PVC tube attached to the top. It is a reasonably tight fit.
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m637/410dyno/Engine%20Out/2015-03-15%2011.03.58.jpg)
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Your experienced pal (always a great thing!) can probably tell general bore condition and even ring gaps by merely popping the oil pan for inspection. If you also pop the heads, all the better for him to recommend what is or isn't needed as he'd have a clear sight at both ends of each bore.
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Thanks guys. We will get it apart this week and post some facts before we ask for advice.
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That cap looks perfectly normal for a well used FE.
It's a stock Ford breather and is time for a redo.
You can get all the parts to rebuild it.
The brown disk is part of the gasket there is a black rubber disk that goes on the bottom.
Long gone no doubt. ::)
Tangs are bent a tad.
It will always seep oil. It's suppose to.
Oil splash's right on the thing, how can it not leak. :P
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Howie, I assumed that the baffle underneath the rocker cover would do a better job of keeping the splash down, but the main thing is it is not a sign of a bigger problem. When I pulled the bottom bell housing bolt on the driver side it was soaked in muddy oil, and the one above it was wet. The back of the engine was very wet with oil, some down from the rocker gasket, but I'm guessing the rear main seal is leaky.
I'll be asking for advice on gaskets when we have it open. I'm going to take more pictures, then clean it before I dismantle.
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That all sounds perfectly normal.
No doubt the intake is seeping. Normal for a used FE.
Actually the rear main seal on an FE is one of the places you do not normally get a leak.
Now every other oil seal will leak. ::)
The baffle is just a tin box that does it's best to keep the leakage to a minimum.
When you go for the big rockers you cut that thing out. lol
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I have the engine out and the top off. Not really happy with what I see, I'll start a new thread and post pictures and start gathering information and ideas on a proper build, since this is no longer just a cam replacement.
One last question for this thread - I'd like to replace the alternator with one that doesn't require a separate voltage regulator. I'd like to clean up the under hood wiring while the engine is out. Any suggestions for an FE compatible one?
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http://www.ebay.com/bhp/ford-1-wire-alternator
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I tried the summit 100 amp one wire for awhile. The only problem was I had to space the pulleys and alternator for clearance. It rubbed on the head.
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I was hoping for a one word answer, seems it is a little more complex. I have seen some threads elsewhere on a 3G swap, but they are metric and I have a dual pulley 55 amp set up I stole off my F250 donor truck. It was a better alternator and I liked how the double belts looked.
I think more research is required.
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m637/410dyno/Engine%20Out/2015-03-18%2020.38.58.jpg)
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Here's a thread from FTE for a 3G swap.
Pretty much gives you everything.
There are model lists and diagrams.
Have fun.
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/942250-just-did-a-3g-upgrade.html
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I swapped my Mustang to a 130 amp 3G and love it. They also come in a 90 amp version. Jay runs the aftermarket Powermaster which is the same but available up to 200 amp. I'm going to do the same thing on my Cougar I'm working on. The advantages of the 3G are both the higher rating and that they have full output even at an idle. They are not a "1 wire" but I followed the same diagram Turbohunter posted a link to and it was easy. There were different versions of the 3G alternator body that have various mounting patterns, you want the one where the "ears" match the pattern and spacing on the Ford 1G you have. I don't have an application, the local alternator rebuilder here knew exactly what I needed. The 3G body is a little deeper, I just needed to shorten the spacer that goes behind the alternator to get the pulleys to line up. One thing I will pass along, the 3G was designed to run with a wide serpentine belt, using a v-belt will require either a dual pulley like you have or a larger diameter pulley to give the belt more grip or they will slip. The pulley shaft on the alternator is short, your dual belt pulley may or may not have a deep enough hole where the nut goes.
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Thank you, Kevin. I've been wasting time reading up on this instead of working, and it seems the alternator pulleys area available as aftermarket parts. If I can't get mine to fit I might be able to buy one that does. Seems the triple pulley on the crank and double on the water pump is the tricky bit, and I've got those. I'm not completely clear on the difference between this and the "one wire" alternator, but I'll consider that as well. I think the Powermaster is the one wire deal.
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Just to follow up Kevins' line of thought.
I have a single groove v belt pulley on my truck.
Everyday on start up there is a little chirp, then it's fine. But I have a real good tightening system with a pusher turn buckle.
I could tighten it enough to stop the chirp but I don't want to take out the bearing.
One of these days it will bug me enough to do something about it. ;D
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As you know most 360's have low compression, so the "GT" cam you have is acctually really big for that engine. ANd the S intake will not pull over 4500 RPM. It was designed to be 800 to 4500.
The 410 may have 10.5+/- and will need a bigger cam in a truck for sure.
My main comment is if you go roller cam, that means much bigger springs, and you MUST get shaft end supports at the minimum. I like Pump Builder stuff, but there are a few good options.
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Torino, thanks for the thoughts. I've started a new thread because, after considering the advice here and from my buddies, I'm starting from the block and considering a complete build. In the other thread "410 Build Up", I have documented that it seems to be about 9.3 to 1 CR. I took out the 360 a while ago, but the 410 just didn't seem enough, to a large extent because it was dead above 4,500 (no surprise there given the intake and heads).