FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: jayb on October 20, 2014, 09:14:56 AM
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So, my grenaded 577" Shelby block is slowly being repaired; the shop is moving slowly and deliberately on this project to make sure we cover all the bases. The plan at this point is to hard-block the block after all the repairs are made, to add some strength to the bottom end and support to the bottom of the cylinder sleeves.
On three of the back cylinders in this block, when the block was originally offset bored in 2008, the boring broke through the aluminum casting, making the three press-in sleeves for these bore wet sleeves. To fix that during the last go-around on this block I used sleeves with an O-ring at the bottom, to keep water from leaking between the sleeve and the aluminum of the block casting, down into the crankcase. Assuming we proceed with the hard block option, my machinist points out that the hard block will cover these holes, and could potentially seal them up, if the hard block material had the same heat expansion rate as the aluminum block.
I have never used hard block before; does anybody know if there is a hard block material available that has the same expansion rate as aluminum?
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I have only filled cast iron blocks. Moroso and Hard-Blok both say that their expansion rate is similar to cast iron...
I did find this for you though:
http://www.speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1887
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Interesting to see all the different product claims by the different Hard Block Co's and home-brewed concoctions on forums. Your motor I'd believe needs to retain as much of it's roots as possible in being an endurance motor rather then a drag only motor since supposedly a large part of piston cooling is through the cyl walls. I'd think that thermal transfer ability of the hard block could play an important role, in that the last thing you'd want is the hard block to act as an insulator that could create hot-sections in the sleeves and also encourage greater thermal expansion amounts in the highly heated areas of the sleeve/filler that have difficultly shedding their heat.
Oddly Hard Block includes in their product features: "graded iron" which you'd think would be great for thermal transfer yet they only state "for strength and vibration dampening". I've spent time with customers with glass melting furnaces and boilers that use "cement" firebrick as an insulator. To me the terms cement and good heat transfer are opposed. I sure hope the "graded iron" in the hard-bloc never corrodes as that could make for dimensional changes - we've all seen steel reinforced concrete crack to hell for rusting steel reinforcing within.
For years I've been amused following hard block users statements that they saw little to no change in their coolant temp and thus they believed their motors were running just as cool with & without filler. Taken to an extreme and running coolant only in the heads and not the block how hot would the pistons & walls get?
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Gotta watch the oil temp a little closer, not so much the water temp.
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The Moroso stuff sucks..............it will move around badly. It takes about two hone jobs to stabilize the Hardblok, but it is better. Niether will hold back water.
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Doing a little searching I found an outfit in CA called Riolo Racing Engines, who supposedly developed their own block fill specifically for aluminum blocks. Hard-Blok also says their product is tested and proven with aluminum blocks, but I've also seen some comments where the bores became hourglass shaped (narrower in the middle by .001" or so) when using Hard-Blok in an aluminum block. Hard to know what to use. I'm going to call Riolo and see what they have to say...
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I would think you will be dooming the block to not being able to replace any sleeves in the future by pouring in a block sealer. If you have new sleeves, then you will only be able to bore them until they are used up. Then the block will be a display item. Is that your plan? Joe-JDC
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That is a concern, but I think I'll be able to bore out the sleeves if necessary, and then replace them. If that doesn't work, then the block really would be done. Given its condition now, and the difficulties of doing the repair, I'll be happy just to get it running one more time.
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Saw a lot of filled blocks when I worked at the machine shop. I asked the Top Fuel guys about that same thing. Old Smokey explained to me that with either aluminum or iron there were two factors that made it irrelevant. First the engine does not run long enough to make a difference and second the fill actually stabilizes temperatures in the block as it has a composition to absorb heat. He at the time was running Keith Black aluminum Hemi engines above the 2500 HP mark with no block failures and super thin iron sleeves so I would say you would be safe. As far as leaks go once filled the compression has a tendency to blow the head off before a block failure occurs. I would worry more about cylinder head retention, crank and rod integrity more than block failure after filling as the block ceases to have any give and places more stress on other components.
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Maybe a gallon or so of this stuff?
http://www.easy-strike.com/prod_liquid.html
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Jay,
I have little experience with filling a block except for once. I was told by a well known Chevy race engine builder to put metal shavings in to the mix. He equated it to rebar in concrete. He also told me that it would prevent shrinking and expanding and keep the hardblok up against the cylinder walls for added strength. He poured my hardblok for me. He first went over to his Bridgeport and grabbed several handfuls of shavings and mixed them into the hardblok. Most shavings were around .75-1.25". He tilted one bank up and poured 3/4 up the cylinder wall and waited for 15 minutes. Then tilted the other bank up and poured the hardblok. This was on an iron block, and not aluminum. In my younger days, I poured many sidewalks, and his analogy to rebar struck home with me. Good Luck, and hope to see that engine running strong again one day.
Dan
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A couple of things we would do on our stock eliminator blocks. We used Embeco 885 to fill them. We would pour on side at a time with torque plates on and let it set 24 hours before pouring the other side. Also made a shaking device to vibrate the block to help get the air pockets out.
Kirk
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For what it's worth, my ECTA engine is a four litre Jaguar V-8. It's an all aluminium engine with cast-in steel liners in the cylinders. The water jackets in the block only extend down about two inches below the deck surface with the block solid below that point. You might say it has hard blok from the factory. There is no problem with temperature control. The original engine in the car, at 3.9 litres, made at the Lima plant instead of the British location ran well for more than 150K miles.
Excellent oil control is part of the basic design with a fairly elaborate windage tray standard. My engine has a wet sump with an oil cooler but the Aston Martin versions are of dry sump design.
How about using Dev-Con as a block filler?
KS
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I'm really not too concerned about overheating issues, and your Jaguar engine is a pretty good example of what may really be required, Ken. The block fillers seem to be grouped into two categories, the cement based stuff and epoxy based stuff. I called Riolo Racing engines this week to ask about theirs, and they told me they'd been using it for 30 years on both iron and aluminum blocks, and that it is an epoxy based filler. Seems like a lot of people are using that stuff, and it may be similar to Dev-Con, but it is not aluminum block specific, which is kind of what I was hoping for. Finding a block filler that has the same thermal expansion characteristics as aluminum seems to be a dead end. The reason I was interested in that is because when I offset bored my Shelby block I broke through the aluminum casting and into the water jacket on three of the bores. The openings are all below the water pump holes, so I was hoping to find a block filler that would cover those openings and seal the potential leaks, so that I didn't have to use O-rings at the bottom of the cylinder sleeves. But the guy from Riolo didn't think that it would be a good idea for me to rely on their sealer to do that.
Also, I'm learning that adding metal particles into any block filler mix is a hit or miss proposition. Hard-Blok says something about this on their web site, mentioning that the size of the particles is critical to making the expansion rate of the filler the same as the particle material. Hard-Blok says that they have iron particles in their mix to make the expansion rate the same as iron, and that the size of the particles is optimized for this purpose, but then they also say that their product works great with aluminum blocks. Go figure.
In light of all this I'm kind of leaning towards the regular Hard-Blok stuff. A lot of people have had good luck with that, and it looks like in any case I'm going to have to run O-rings at the bottom of the sleeves in this engine again, to keep any water seepage from leaking past the outside of the sleeves. That is, unless I want to fill the block ALL the way up, which I'm trying to stay away from...
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To bad you can't leave it at the place that is casting your intake adapters and have them do a short pour of aluminum in place of hard block when they are doing thier next castings. Jim
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To bad you can't leave it at the place that is casting your intake adapters and have them do a short pour of aluminum in place of hard block when they are doing thier next castings. Jim
I was JUST thinking the same thing. I was also thinking to myself that this sounds "retarded", but also thinking to myself 'does it really?" I'm not sure and was thinking of bringing it just for the sake of discussion. In any case you said it first. Why not pour molten aluminum into your block? I'm guessing you would need to heat up the block first? Pour it in and let it cool. Rotate and repeat on the other side?
Is there a physical reason not to do this? Warping the block? Expense?
Just a thought,
paulie
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Riolo has been around for a long time, used to see him running with the original Pro Gas 9.50 class at Sacramento in his 55, along with Bob Bunker, Wayne Torkleson's blown SOHC then blown B9 Bird, the Yuill Brothers etc. Pretty well respected builder. My neighbor's speed shop has been around since the early 70's, and his builder does a lot of very successful block fills with HardBlok, has a vibration setup (that's what real concrete contactors use to settle mud) to get a clean, solid fill with no pockets- he has it down pretty well. You can cover up a lot of sins if you can get a solid sleeve in there centered and straight, and mud 'er up
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To bad you can't leave it at the place that is casting your intake adapters and have them do a short pour of aluminum in place of hard block when they are doing thier next castings. Jim
I was JUST thinking the same thing. I was also thinking to myself that this sounds "retarded", but also thinking to myself 'does it really?" I'm not sure and was thinking of bringing it just for the sake of discussion. In any case you said it first. Why not pour molten aluminum into your block? I'm guessing you would need to heat up the block first? Pour it in and let it cool. Rotate and repeat on the other side?
Is there a physical reason not to do this? Warping the block? Expense?
Just a thought,
paulie
Just getting the foundry to pour the normal intake adapter castings is difficult enough. They are a production shop, and wouldn't be interested in doing one-off kind of stuff. Besides, I think the block would warp all to hell by pouring 1300 degree aluminum into it, and you'd have to somehow feed it in through the water jacket holes at the top of the block to get it to fill properly. Not really possible, I don't think.
When I build MY FE block ( ;D) I'll leave more aluminum in it, for offset boring and also to eliminate the need to hard-blok.
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Check out the whole Donovan website...not just the link posted below:
http://www.donovanengineering.com/Videos/VideoGallery.html
Long ago (before they did billet blocks) I did read an article about DE planning a 'master' blank block that easily could be machined into a BBC or Donovan/Arias 417 (392 Hemi replica) or even another make. Anyway, since they have a source of billet blanks large enough, maybe they could sell you a chunk for the new JB Billet FE Cammer block!
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I would vote for am epoxy type of filler. seems to me it would be more likely to "stick"to the block and sleeves, making it a little more solid with the movement of the aluminum expansion.
however its just theory for me as I have no experience in these matters.
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By now I suppose Jay's gone with something. However, I found this company's offerings interesting with such a wide range of products. Problem is who wants their project to be guinea pig?
http://www.cotronics.com/vo/cotr/index.htm
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Jay: as far as a Billet block. If I remember correctly Kirkham had a video of a CNC FE block about 18 months ago.
Richard
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Jay: as far as a Billet block. If I remember correctly Kirkham had a video of a CNC FE block about 18 months ago.
Richard
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KLNJ8d8Vqc
Personally I think Kirkham is full of shit.
Reading his responses to his youtube you would think the FE was a piece of junk and had so many problems
that only his complete waste of material engine block was some kind of FE saviour.
When in reality any one of the after market blocks available today are better than his Swiss cheese hunk of aluminum and much cheaper and stronger.
He used an off the shelf bar of 6061 T6 and said he had it custom forged. I call bullshit. He bought a few chunks of bar and milled them.
His block is so far from an FE let alone a 427. It can not be counted as even a reasonable after market block.
Because you can do something does not mean you should.
David Kirkham1 year ago
in reply to swasey1952
Thanks for some great comments. The block dyno'd at something like 630 horse power. It has run several track days going all out--all day--with no problems. Many blocks have water between the sleeves (F1 blocks are made like this). Like most things, there are advantages and disadvantages to blocks with siamesed bores and blocks with water around the bores. We chose to have wet sleeves to improve the cooling (a problem in FE motors). Thanks
David Kirkham3 years ago
in reply to Rylander88
@Rylander88 The girdle is very stiff. You can do also do away with two of the old straight seals for the rear main cap which always leak. We got the idea looking at F1 engines.
I have no problem with cooling or rear main seal leaking.
He does make some nice Cobra bodies though, I'll give him that.
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Why at this point would you not do a full filled block? The integrity of the block is in question at the levels you are at and the block has also been machined to the point of being compromised anyhow. I would say at this point it is a drag only part due to the extensive machining and HP levels you are after anyhow. Really I think you have hit the cross rod between drag specific and street use anyhow as the engine at this point is being squeezed to its max potential with that block. Further than that I would start looking into a custom CNC billet part as an upgrade or maybe one of the current casting molds could be modified with heavier walls and deck by one of the manufacturers like Dove. At some point you would reach a feasible ceiling with your current block and have to consider a improved version as a option I would think.
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I agree with Howie, that Kirkham block looks pretty fragile to me. And Jon, I'm nowhere near the HP potential of the Shelby block; Shelby says its good for 1500 HP and I'll bet its good for a lot more than that. Also, my opinion on race-only stuff is its for somebody who lives close to a track. I don't, I run all my engines on the street, and filling the block all the way would probably prevent me from doing that.
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Perhaps Jay could just switch to E85 and not have to worry about block cooling - that's a joke!
I wished I'd taken a video of Pro/Street car that showed up to the cruise-in the other night. What a disaster the car had a stout BBC on E85 and open down-turned headers perfectly aimed to kick up clouds of dust/dirt infuriating all with spotless cars and those left choking and blinded by the dust for 50ft from both sides of the car. When I looked closely at the cars modern fuel dragster butterfly-less scoop I could see right down the throat of a Holley HP and large sections of intake manifold through gapping holes around the carb -- Real smart kick up a dust storm and run no air filter. Imagine the problems of running E85 in a carb'd street car.
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Why would you need to go crazy with the block strength? Filling the block to add the stability needed for big numbers but the block is rated higher anyhow. If a certain area is compromised an option would be to cut that area out and patch it. I have seen this done on heavy equipment castings then they re-machine or also grind the area and fill with weld and do the same. It does however cause soft and hard spots as any welding operation will but very effective on weld able metal like aluminum. I have had many castings modified this way also like heads and blocks, even with cast iron to make port work possible. In many instances I have found removing metal and starting with a fresh patch makes repairs much easier.
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so when i bolted my bare block to the dyno... it didn't make any horsepower so 630 is pretty impressive.
but then i really thought you needed pistons heads cam etc to make hp? Just imagine what that kirkham block could do with all those goodies.
/sarcastic troll voice.
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Weren't we talking engine blocks and potential solutions to repair castings? Hmm we already covered e85 months ago.
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I'd have to agree with Jay that the block is nowhere near its full potential. It could probably handle 2000hp if built properly. There are plenty of BBC and 385 blocks making that kind of power for street use that aren't any stronger than that Shelby block. Full filling the block just makes it an unusable piece on anything but a 1/4 mile at a time. A partial fill and sealer will be plenty good enough. Remember, the block did not cause any issues, the rod did.
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The big HP blocks I have seen on the street are cast iron and quite a bit larger displacement. To get 2000 HP out of 500 cube engine would be 4 HP per cube. At that point you are in the top fuel bracket. Even a dreamer like me can't convience myself of that happening with a street engine that is not filled.
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I'm hoping to prove you wrong with my turbo SOHC project, which is about a 500" engine based on a Shelby block. If I ever get around to putting it together... ::)
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It would be awesome power for a 500 cube engine but I do not see it happening with a street engine on pump gas even with nitrous. Materials and parts as they are now are really not up to task. Even with a DOHC Modular with all the goodies it is a far stretch to have it a drivable engine for regular use. Certainly with an older design and two valve per cylinder engine from 1960's technology some major base design changes would have to be made. It would seem that starting with an engine with that kind of potential such as a 385 Boss Hemi engine with a four valve head would be a more possible scenario. Even then pump gas and water cooled would be out of reach it would seem. The strongest street engine I have seen is about 1200 HP and that was basically a drag car with plates, the transmission, rear end and chassis becomes an issue over 800 HP limiting you to drag specific parts. Basically at 2000 HP you have a clutch, spool and no gears. Untill a transmission is designed to handle the load is a one speed operation with a crazy low gear. The other factor is to what point do you surpass the limitations placed at the track, the standards placed for a 2000 HP car are strictly funny car and Rail configuration.
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Sorry, Jon, but you need to check out some real engine builders and modern builds. Try Steve Morris for several Ford examples, and there are several others. With twin turbos, methanol injection, modern engine controls, 1500-2000hp is the new "norm" for street engines. They are getting those numbers with anything from small blocks to small 500-540ci big blocks. With the bigger cubes he's pushing 3000hp....on street engines, with 2 valves, and basic A460 blocks, which aren't cross bolted. Yes these engines belong in strip cars, but they ARE being put in street only cars. Welcome to the new age.
And there is always this 1100hp Kuntz and Co. FE. Listen to the idle of this thing...very smooth, on carburetors.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9g3ruuQLhs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKfWGll-Umw&spfreload=10
And another 1100+hp example from Kuntz, naturally aspirated with carbs. Notice the Shelby blocks being used.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OF6yJscOp58
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That 6.05 sec 240 mph Toyota Supra everyone's talking about is a stock block 6-cylinder engine. Yes it's filled to withstand the 90 psi boost, but that sucker is making about 2,600 HP. That's out of 3.5 Liters!
Our big lumps can make big power with supercharging and still live on the street. Especially with turbos, you could tune a setup to be fairly docile for normal driving, as long as you keep a chunk of 2x4 under the gas pedal. :o
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Very accurate comment just above. Instead of hitch-hiking on this thread I'll start another one to shed some light on this-and-other related issues.
KS
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I was speaking a real street driven car, and the limited technology a FE has to work with. If someone out there has a 2000 hp street driven engine that has a usable drivetrain, then some aliens from mars must have designed it for him LOL. I know plenty of real engine builders and some claims out there I sure would like to see some real proof on if it were true then a lot of top fuel teams are wasting a lot or time and money. They could just run pump gas and have 2000 hp in the family cruiser and spend no money doing it.
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Respectfully Jon you need to follow the advice and do a little research on where the performance industry is today. Top Fuel and Nitro Funny cars surpassed 2,000 hp back in the early 70's. It's commonly accepted that they are over 8,000 hp today. See this article:
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/ccrp-1009-8000hp-top-fuel-engine/
You should also do some research on Hot Rod's Dragweek event, which is what Jay's cars are designed for. Many vehicles well over 2,000 hp that not only have to make all-out passes on the strip but also drive 250-350 miles each day to the next track, over 1,200 miles during the course of the week. And that is a combination of stop and go city driving, back country roads and interstate freeways. Potholes and all. Check Hot Rod magazines website under events. The big horsepower is made with a variety of turbos, superchargers and nitrous. Usually aftermarket engine controls, fuel injection, etc., but some old school with carbs. Since those components are bolt on they can be used on a FE the same as any motor. The internal parts needed as well, same as any engine - billet cranks, custom pistons - all available. The hard part that keeps most of us from building one is coming up with the cash.
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Well said, Kevin.
KS
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I know this is an FE forum, but if anyone has any doubts about totally and completely streetable 2000 hp mills, check out Nelson Racing Engines. Sick.
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All the stuff I have seen on Nelsons engines has all of them running in street tune with street gas.Not race tune..
Not that 1200 HP isn't enough on the street but it's not the 1700-2000 claimed race tune numbers...
I tried to get Nelson to build a Alien fuel injection system for a BBC...(aprox $12,000)Their phone manners and attitude cost them the sale...I had Hogans build a manifold..The owner of the engine and my self were far happier dealing with Hogan.......JMO....Cory
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Hello Jay,
Given your circumstances on having replaceable sleeves, would you consider something along the lines of a Woods Metal or Roses Metal as a 'hard bloc'? If you ever need to remove it, you just heat it up, and pour it out. It should transfer load well and help dampen any errant frequencies. We use this when machining large thin-walled parts. You machine out most of the material, then use a low-melt eutectic to 'replace' the material you finished, finish the part, then dunk it in hot water and voila the eutectic melts and your part is complete.
When 'casting' into the block you would have to warm the block up to 150F, and then pour the stuff in from a headed crucible. You typically want eutectic alloys as they don't shrink away once they cool down. Here is a link for some options, I'm sure there are more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusible_alloy You'll want to look at the melt temperature, shrink percentage from liquid to solid, hardness and modulus when deciding.
Take care,
Joe Burnett
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Jay, I would just use the Hard Block, I've used it before with no issues (iron blocks).
I would do a 3/4 fill.
If 3/4 is above the water pump, I would have "sleeves" installed so that the water pump inlets do not become covered. I've seen it done with clear hose from the water pump up to the level of the block fill. This allows water circulation for the top 2" or so of the deck and allows for more block fill without heating concerns. The block fill is poured in around the hose and it becomes a coolant passage.
If I did the 3/4 fill on an endurance application I would look at piston oilers, BLP sells a nice set up.
Sorry I'm late to the party but I had to add my $.02
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Even the 4.6 guys and LSI streeters I have seen come no where near 2000 street HP, sure if you run alcohol and a huge nitrous kit you could produce that much power but what kind of drivetrain are you going to use? And I hardly consider alcohol and nitrous oxide street fuel, at least at any gas station I go to. To say you have 2000 streetable HP is more like saying I have a drag car with license plates. As I said 4 HP per cubic inch would seem a little far fetched on a old school V8 on the street running gasoline, yes top fuel cars produce 8000 HP but that does not mean a street driven car made in 1964 can produce 2000 and run on pump gas. It would seem I keep being taken out of context as I do not dispute engines can produce 4 or more HP per cubic inch but it would be at the cost of crossing the line between a street driven car to a strictly race vehicle. This has been my argument with the logic at hand all along, not the maximum potential of any engine as that is not even a relevant subject here. No one here is building ultra modern fast and furious cars running four turbos and talking about it, this site is for a certain engine series built by Ford and that is what I am making reference to. Can a SOHC produce more than 1200 HP? Sure it can, on the street with 91 octane? Doubt it.
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If I did the 3/4 fill on an endurance application I would look at piston oilers, BLP sells a nice set up.
Mark, who is BLP that you mentioned? I wouldn't mind looking at those oilers.
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https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#sourceid=chrome-psyapi2&ie=UTF-8&q=blp%20piston%20oiling%20system
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Even the 4.6 guys and LSI streeters I have seen come no where near 2000 street HP, sure if you run alcohol and a huge nitrous kit you could produce that much power but what kind of drivetrain are you going to use? And I hardly consider alcohol and nitrous oxide street fuel, at least at any gas station I go to. To say you have 2000 streetable HP is more like saying I have a drag car with license plates. As I said 4 HP per cubic inch would seem a little far fetched on a old school V8 on the street running gasoline, yes top fuel cars produce 8000 HP but that does not mean a street driven car made in 1964 can produce 2000 and run on pump gas. It would seem I keep being taken out of context as I do not dispute engines can produce 4 or more HP per cubic inch but it would be at the cost of crossing the line between a street driven car to a strictly race vehicle. This has been my argument with the logic at hand all along, not the maximum potential of any engine as that is not even a relevant subject here. No one here is building ultra modern fast and furious cars running four turbos and talking about it, this site is for a certain engine series built by Ford and that is what I am making reference to. Can a SOHC produce more than 1200 HP? Sure it can, on the street with 91 octane? Doubt it.
Your whole argument hinges on 91 octane. No other engine, regardless of make can make the claimed horsepower you mention with 91 octane, either. They all have octane boosters of some sort, whether alcohol, methanol, C-12,-16, VP, etc.. A FE can be as competitive as any engine within the same parameters. The shortcoming of any FE is the head flow available, but there are some out there now that will make the power, and intakes are available to complement the heads. All it takes is money. Joe-JDC
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That is my point exactly, to be a liquid cooled, unfilled block, and running with the parameters like a full bodied super stock car must run, I would say 1200 is pushing the envelope of a car that is a street driven car. Past that you have a dedicated drag car was my point and filling the block is not a bad idea. I would say all components after 1000 HP become marginal and breakage is inevitable in a stock configured car. I have seen well built power glides explode at 1200 HP that were completely aftermarket components and a 9" is rated to about 900 HP after that you start looking at race specific parts that limit its use to a track only vehicle. To say the vehicle is a street drivable car becomes a narrow margin at some point.