Author Topic: FE Block Filler  (Read 27959 times)

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fe66comet

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Re: FE Block Filler
« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2014, 11:05:02 AM »
The big HP blocks I have seen on the street are cast iron and quite a bit larger displacement. To get 2000 HP out of 500 cube engine would be 4 HP per cube. At that point you are in the top fuel bracket. Even a dreamer like me can't convience myself of that happening with a street engine that is not filled.

jayb

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Re: FE Block Filler
« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2014, 11:28:46 AM »
I'm hoping to prove you wrong with my turbo SOHC project, which is about a 500" engine based on a Shelby block.  If I ever get around to putting it together... ::)
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

fe66comet

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Re: FE Block Filler
« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2014, 12:42:50 PM »
It would be awesome power for a 500 cube engine but I do not see it happening with a street engine on pump gas even with nitrous. Materials and parts as they are now are really not up to task. Even with a DOHC Modular with all the goodies it is a far stretch to have it a drivable engine for regular use. Certainly with an older design and two valve per cylinder engine from 1960's technology some major base design changes would have to be made. It would seem that starting with an engine with that kind of potential such as a 385 Boss Hemi engine with a four valve head would be a more possible scenario. Even then pump gas and water cooled would be out of reach it would seem. The strongest street engine I have seen is about 1200 HP and that was basically a drag car with plates, the transmission, rear end and chassis becomes an issue over 800 HP limiting you to drag specific parts. Basically at 2000 HP you have a clutch, spool and no gears. Untill a transmission is designed to handle the load is a one speed operation with a crazy low gear. The other factor is to what point do you surpass the limitations placed at the track, the standards placed for a 2000 HP car are strictly funny car and Rail configuration.

cjshaker

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Re: FE Block Filler
« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2014, 11:45:43 AM »
Sorry, Jon, but you need to check out some real engine builders and modern builds. Try Steve Morris for several Ford examples, and there are several others. With twin turbos, methanol injection, modern engine controls, 1500-2000hp is the new "norm" for street engines. They are getting those numbers with anything from small blocks to small 500-540ci big blocks. With the bigger cubes he's pushing 3000hp....on street engines, with 2 valves, and basic A460 blocks, which aren't cross bolted. Yes these engines belong in strip cars, but they ARE being put in street only cars. Welcome to the new age.

And there is always this 1100hp Kuntz and Co. FE. Listen to the idle of this thing...very smooth, on carburetors.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9g3ruuQLhs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKfWGll-Umw&spfreload=10

And another 1100+hp example from Kuntz, naturally aspirated with carbs. Notice the Shelby blocks being used.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OF6yJscOp58


Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

WConley

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Re: FE Block Filler
« Reply #34 on: November 01, 2014, 01:05:43 PM »
That 6.05 sec 240 mph Toyota Supra everyone's talking about is a stock block 6-cylinder engine.  Yes it's filled to withstand the 90 psi boost, but that sucker is making about 2,600 HP.  That's out of 3.5 Liters!

Our big lumps can make big power with supercharging and still live on the street.  Especially with turbos, you could tune a setup to be fairly docile for normal driving, as long as you keep a chunk of 2x4 under the gas pedal.  :o
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

cammerfe

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Re: FE Block Filler
« Reply #35 on: November 01, 2014, 01:40:58 PM »
Very accurate comment just above. Instead of hitch-hiking on this thread I'll start another one to shed some light on this-and-other related issues.

KS

fe66comet

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Re: FE Block Filler
« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2014, 02:12:54 PM »
I was speaking a real street driven car, and the limited technology a FE has to work with. If someone out there has a 2000 hp street driven engine that has a usable drivetrain, then some aliens from mars must have designed it for him LOL. I know plenty of real engine builders and some claims out there I sure would like to see some real proof on if it were true then a lot of top fuel teams are wasting a lot or time and money. They  could just run pump gas and have 2000 hp in the family cruiser and spend no money doing it.

thatdarncat

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Re: FE Block Filler
« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2014, 05:03:24 PM »
Respectfully Jon you need to follow the advice and do a little research on where the performance industry is today. Top Fuel and Nitro Funny cars surpassed 2,000 hp back in the early 70's. It's commonly accepted that they are over 8,000 hp today. See this article:

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/ccrp-1009-8000hp-top-fuel-engine/

You should also do some research on Hot Rod's Dragweek event, which is what Jay's cars are designed for. Many vehicles well over 2,000 hp that not only have to make all-out passes on the strip but also drive 250-350 miles each day to the next track, over 1,200 miles during the course of the week. And that is a combination of stop and go city driving, back country roads and interstate freeways. Potholes and all. Check Hot Rod magazines website under events. The big horsepower is made with a variety of turbos, superchargers and nitrous. Usually aftermarket engine controls, fuel injection, etc., but some old school with carbs. Since those components are bolt on they can be used on a FE the same as any motor. The internal parts needed as well, same as any engine - billet cranks, custom pistons - all available. The hard part that keeps most of us from building one is coming up with the cash.
Kevin Rolph

1967 Cougar Drag Car ( under constuction )
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cammerfe

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Re: FE Block Filler
« Reply #38 on: November 02, 2014, 05:27:04 PM »
Well said, Kevin.

KS

philminotti

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Re: FE Block Filler
« Reply #39 on: November 02, 2014, 06:26:30 PM »
I know this is an FE forum, but if anyone has any doubts about totally and completely streetable 2000 hp mills, check out Nelson Racing Engines.  Sick.

427Fastback

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Re: FE Block Filler
« Reply #40 on: November 02, 2014, 11:02:09 PM »
All the stuff I have seen on Nelsons engines has all of them running in street tune with street gas.Not race tune..
Not that 1200 HP isn't enough on the street but it's not the 1700-2000 claimed race tune numbers...

I tried to get Nelson to build  a Alien fuel injection system for a BBC...(aprox $12,000)Their phone manners and attitude cost them the sale...I had Hogans build a manifold..The owner of the engine and my self were far happier dealing with Hogan.......JMO....Cory
1968 Mustang Fastback...427 MR 5spd (owned since 1977)
1967 Mustang coupe...Trans Am replica
1936 Diamond T 212BD
1990 Grizzly pick-up

Cyclone Joe

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Re: FE Block Filler
« Reply #41 on: November 03, 2014, 12:34:06 PM »
Hello Jay,

Given your circumstances on having replaceable sleeves, would you consider something along the lines of a Woods Metal or Roses Metal as a 'hard bloc'? If you ever need to remove it, you just heat it up, and pour it out.  It should transfer load well and help dampen any errant frequencies.  We use this when machining large thin-walled parts.  You machine out most of the material, then use a low-melt eutectic to 'replace' the material you finished, finish the part, then dunk it in hot water and voila the eutectic melts and your part is complete. 

When 'casting' into the block you would have to warm the block up to 150F, and then pour the stuff in from a headed crucible.  You typically want eutectic alloys as they don't shrink away once they cool down.  Here is a link for some options, I'm sure there are more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusible_alloy  You'll want to look at the melt temperature, shrink percentage from liquid to solid, hardness and modulus when deciding.

Take care,
Joe Burnett
« Last Edit: November 03, 2014, 12:42:23 PM by Cyclone Joe »

900HP

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Re: FE Block Filler
« Reply #42 on: November 05, 2014, 12:41:05 PM »
Jay, I would just use the Hard Block, I've used it before with no issues (iron blocks). 

I would do a 3/4 fill.

If 3/4 is above the water pump, I would have "sleeves" installed so that the water pump inlets do not become covered.  I've seen it done with clear hose from the water pump up to the level of the block fill.  This allows water circulation for the top 2" or so of the deck and allows for more block fill without heating concerns.  The block fill is poured in around the hose and it becomes a coolant passage.

If I did the 3/4 fill on an endurance application I would look at piston oilers, BLP sells a nice set up.

Sorry I'm late to the party but I had to add my $.02

fe66comet

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Re: FE Block Filler
« Reply #43 on: November 05, 2014, 05:01:15 PM »
Even the 4.6 guys and LSI streeters I have seen come no where near 2000 street HP, sure if you run alcohol and a huge nitrous kit you could produce that much power but what kind of drivetrain are you going to use? And I hardly consider alcohol and nitrous oxide street fuel, at least at any gas station I go to. To say you have 2000 streetable HP is more like saying I have a drag car with license plates. As I said 4 HP per cubic inch would seem a little far fetched on a old school V8 on the street running gasoline, yes top fuel cars produce 8000 HP but that does not mean a street driven car made in 1964 can produce 2000 and run on pump gas. It would seem I keep being taken out of context as I do not dispute engines can produce 4 or more HP per cubic inch but it would be at the cost of crossing the line between a street driven car to a strictly race vehicle. This has been my argument with the logic at hand all along, not the maximum potential of any engine as that is not even a relevant subject here. No one here is building ultra modern fast and furious cars running four turbos and talking about it, this site is for a certain engine series built by Ford and that is what I am making reference to. Can a SOHC produce more than 1200 HP? Sure it can, on the street with 91 octane? Doubt it.

cjshaker

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Re: FE Block Filler
« Reply #44 on: November 05, 2014, 06:03:00 PM »
If I did the 3/4 fill on an endurance application I would look at piston oilers, BLP sells a nice set up.

Mark, who is BLP that you mentioned? I wouldn't mind looking at those oilers.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe