FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: bartlett on June 29, 2014, 06:22:37 AM
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Its not a problem,only a question. Idling,cruising,trafffic my car will run 180-210 all day long never gets to hot.... Now Running down the highway it seems to run 200-210-215 .....never over heats but runs on the warm side.
setup
180 thermostat,new 4 core alum raid, clutch fan,shroud,5 blade ac fan blade, 370 gears ,tci 3,500stall, trans cooled through raid and aftermarket cooler infront of raid. Front of raid / grill area is wide open and Way free to moving air (imo) timing is 38 total ...
My question, My thoughts are that I think it should be cooling down on the highway and heating up sitting. It likes to run on the warm side when running down the freeway. Do you think this is the converter heating things up? or ?
p.s. this motor only has maybe 2,000 miles on it.... Its wierd, from dead cold it will goto 180 in less than 5 mins running time. it warms to temp very fast IMO. never over heats but gets to temp very fast.
p.s. air fuels are right on, plugs are perfect. car runs an pulls perfect....just think it should run cooler on the highway...Imo ...
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I'm no expert, but I've been studying cooling systems quite a bit in preparation for my upgrade. From what I've seen, a 4 tube aluminum radiator is a bit of an oddity. Are you certain that's what you have? The big majority of aluminum radiators available use two 1" tubes. Seems that as more tubes are added, subsequent rows become less effective, and as the core gets thicker it becomes harder to push the air through it. If you are in fact running a super thick core and have additional coolers in front of that, it sounds like you're having an airflow problem. I don't know if there's a fix for that other than going to a two row radiator.
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Yea its for sure a 4 core raid, I got the biggest I could buy for my setup.. I have been staring at it and also wonder if its a air flow problem. From the front it would seem unlikely to be a flow problem,But my thought its where does the hot air go ? The engine is so tight in there and there is no big gaps to be seen. I just dont see where the hot air can go. I do have a hood scoop but it faces forward. :o
I guess I never even thought of where the air goes ....lol ....
2nd thought ... would not a flow problem show up at idle more than highway speeds? ... p.s. I never hear my clutch fan lock up. I put my hand behind it and it is blowing like crazy. I have done the spin test and it seems all good. Its still very clean so its not leaking. I just never hear it fully lock up like my old durango use to ...
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I agree that going down the highway your water temp should be sitting right on the thermostat temperature. There are some thermostats that restrict water flow more than others; did you get a high flow thermostat or a standard one? One experiment you could try would be to take the thermostat out completely, and see how the engine cools that way. If it runs cooler down the highway, you have identified the problem.
I'm also with Wade on the radiator; a four core aluminum radiator is a strange one. Where did you get that?
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I agree that going down the highway your water temp should be sitting right on the thermostat temperature. There are some thermostats that restrict water flow more than others; did you get a high flow thermostat or a standard one? One experiment you could try would be to take the thermostat out completely, and see how the engine cools that way. If it runs cooler down the highway, you have identified the problem.
I'm also with Wade on the radiator; a four core aluminum radiator is a strange one. Where did you get that?
2X to what Jay said but.....make a simple coolant restrictor like the Moroso unit from sheet metal or a beer can (!) and cut the center hole a tad larger than the current thermostat's i.d. This may resolve the question and get you through the summer without yanking the puke tank again!
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mor-63440/overview/
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Im 99% sure the stat is a standard 180 stant thermostat.
Here is some pics of whats going on ..lol ..
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w279/bartlettracing/20140629_075521_zps41b9f367.jpeg) (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/bartlettracing/media/20140629_075521_zps41b9f367.jpeg.html)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w279/bartlettracing/20140629_075409_zpsda9b09dc.jpeg) (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/bartlettracing/media/20140629_075409_zpsda9b09dc.jpeg.html)
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Being I got nothing better to do today..lol ,...Im off to go drain the fluid and pull the stat out. I Have a ton of washers so I will see what I can make up ...
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Wow, knew the 4" rad was thick but the pics prove.....it really is thick!
One other easy or at least cheap temporary test trick to try. Loosen the 4 bolts on the hood (may need a pal to help here) and stack 2-3 washers under the L-R rearmost bolts. Idea here is to tilt the rear of the hood up and open enough to allow more hot air to escape from under the hood.
Can't see the front/bottom of the rad and the body structure. Sometimes adding a 3" - 4" tall 'spoiler' the width of the radiator's shell frame, underneath the front edge of the shell, will direct airflow now passing under the car upwards into the radiator itself. Again a cheap chunk of aluminum or sheet steel can be added to test how this may work w/o a lot of effort.
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I would try a Mr Gasket High-Flow 180 thermostat. It will flow more water but still warm it up correctly.
I think a two row aluminum radiator with 1" cores would work better for you.
It looks like you do not have a rubber seal on top running the length of the radiator core support.
I have found them to help cooling somewhat.
Overall just take a close look to see if there are any areas around the radiator
that will allow air to go around the radiator instead of through it.
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What do you run for a timing curve?
I would think that you'd well into the curve at highway speeds, but you never know. Delayed vacuum advance or an as delivered MSD curve would put advance pretty late and add some heat to the motor at steady cruise.
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Well testing done .... I failed :( :( :'( I built the washer and drilled out a 7/8 hole ....refilled the system and we went cruising... results , temp took longer to reach 210/215 ....after that the gauge stuck there like glue ... it would move alittle +- 5 degrees ect .... So this is worse than it was.. I looked in and the flow was kicking real well ! Im thinkin of jumping upto a 195 highflow stat...
Im leaning hard on the fan being the problem, Im never hearing it kick in hard, only spinning at a normal rate. Im just going to buy a new clutch fan to cure my gut.
My timing is all in at 3,000 rpm ....38 .... cruise is 3,200 rpm 62mph or so .....
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w279/bartlettracing/20140629_093112_zps9d35c375.jpeg) (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/bartlettracing/media/20140629_093112_zps9d35c375.jpeg.html)
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Maybe a fan cooled oil cooler would help? I use them on out tow vehicles. It helps a lot with running A/C and an automatic on the highway for sure.
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215 isn't that hot, maybe don't do anything? COuld even be within the tolerance of the gauge
As a rule of thumb, boiling point is increased by about 3 degrees for every pound of pressure.
So at 7 psi, straight water goes from 212 to about 233, and if you went with a 15 lb cap 250-ish
If you are running a 50% mix, boiling goes from 225 at zero standard atmospheric pressure, to 250 at 7 psi and 265 or so at 15 lbs
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IMO, if you are driving down the highway with the thermostat removed and you are still running at 215, you have a problem with airflow through the radiator. The fan isn't going to have much effect at highway speeds, when you've got 60 MPH of air blowing through the radiator. Somehow the air is not getting through, either from bypassing around the radiator or nowhere to go once it get through into the engine compartment. Although I suppose it is possible that if the clutch fan isn't spinning, it might serve as the block to the airflow.
Another potential test: remove the clutch fan altogether and see if the cooling improves on the highway. But I really think that the radiator may be the problem. On the other hand, as Ross says, 215 isn't bad...
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Is that a champion radiator ? I have the same issue.
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Yea IMo 215 isnt bad at all ..... I just think that being it only goes there driving on the highway that something is a miss.... I just thought I might track a simple problem down and cure it .... guess it might not be so simple lol ...
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I would run a 190~195 stat if it was me! Who knows what pulley's your running and so on. That will help and might keep you down to 200 or less.... JMHO
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Yes, what are the sizes of the water pump and crank pulleys?
Ford made a number of different pulleys based upon a number of factors. Lincolns and T-Birds often got pump pulleys smaller than the crank pulley while almost all 'performance' Fords got a.) bigger-than-crank pulley water pump pulleys or b.) equal sized pulleys. Slowing down the coolant flow for fast Fords was important for these higher rpm engines as opposed to loafer combos in luxury cars.
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Another thing to consider is going to the stock radiator. They are typically brass, and brass is better than aluminum at dispersing heat. I was sure an aluminum one would healp my car run cooler but the guys at "www.squarebirds.org convinced me otherwise.
Of course the old radiator has to be in good condition.
Here's what I did to get mine cooler.
I took it out of the car, straightened all the mushed and dinged spots so the air would flow through better. It wasn't in bad shape, but every little bit helps.
I then hosed out the fins from the engine side to the front side - a little bit of dirt and such washed out there too.
I then laid the thing flat with the hose side up and filled it with distilled white vinegar. I let it set over night and then some - about 16 hours.
Next I heated it via propane torch all along the tubes, I could hear a little boiling vinegar every once in a while. You have to be very careful not to heat any air pockets because you could end up melting the welds.
I emptied it and flushed it thoroughly with the garden hose on high.
Then I reinstalled it and filled it with water, ran the motor until hot, and then drained it - did this several times to get all the anti freeze out.
Then I used Prestone radiator flush as recommended.
I flushed that out by draining the radiator, filling with water, running until it flowed hot, then draining the radiator again. I repeated that several times until it ran clear.
I topped it off with one and a half gallons of anti freeze and it's running much cooler. At stop and go cruising speed it's around 195. I took it down the highway and it's just over 190. Ran it up and down an open stretch of highway at 3000 rpm, stomped on it up hill to 4000 rpm and it stayed between 190 and 195. Heck of a lot better.
Another thing I've heard that works well is "Water wetter". It didn't help me much, but I've heard from other guys that it can lower your temp 10 degrees.
Dave J
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I ve used water wetter on our 66 galaxie , 390 2 bblr all iron motor , during the summer months it would vapor lock from time to time , added water wetter just to try and lowered the temp 8- 10 degrees and solved my problem .. Bud
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Im going to put a 195 back in ,water wetter , and a new clutch fan for good measure ..... should be good ... thanks guys I will report the finding after a test ....
:)
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Bud, I have a 92 F-250 4x4 with a 460. It's stock, and sometimes vapor locks in the summer months. Never thought to try water wetter in that. I've also heard it works better if there is less anti-freeze in the water.
Dave
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Interesting, never seen the stuff. I have seen the high performance antifreeze that is supposed to be more efficient, but never tried it.
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It s in your summit and jegs catalog , and at o reillys auto parts as well , i found it first in the summit book and order d it .. Bud
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Oh and Dave lm not sure , but think i remember reading that on the bottle ..
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installed a 195 stat and refilled 50/50 exstended life and tested runs 200/205 witch is good being I installed a 195 stat. then added water wetter and it did nothing ! not a single point. (digital temp gauge) add one more bottle of wetter , tested . not one point. IMO the watter wetter is a bust and does not work as like most fixes in a bottle. The stat is opening at 195 right on the money... all tests done with my cars digital temp gauge and a hand held snap on gauge.
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Cooling system stuff is funny. I have had exactly the same experience with water wetter that you have - absolutely zero gain. Yet some people swear by it.
And contrary to your experience, I have never seen coolant temperatures decrease with an increase in the thermostat temperature. I will say this again, for what it's worth: Driving down the highway at 60 MPH, your coolant temperature should be exactly on the thermostat temperature. If its not, your cooling system is lacking in some way, most likely in the radiator's ability to dissipate the heat.
In any case, glad your combination got the problem solved - Jay
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jay it has not solved the problem.. It is running about the same as before. just hotter to start with ... Im going to swap the 180 stat back in I like the temps better with it than the 190 ... I think the problem is air flow ... after the 180 is back In I think Ill just leave it be... she has not over heated or even got real hot so I dont think I need to over think it .....
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Cooling system stuff is funny. I have had exactly the same experience with water wetter that you have - absolutely zero gain. Yet some people swear by it.
And contrary to your experience, I have never seen coolant temperatures decrease with an increase in the thermostat temperature. I will say this again, for what it's worth: Driving down the highway at 60 MPH, your coolant temperature should be exactly on the thermostat temperature. If its not, your cooling system is lacking in some way, most likely in the radiator's ability to dissipate the heat.
In any case, glad your combination got the problem solved - Jay
Same here on both counts. Although I have read about "no thermostat" allowing cavitation at the pump and steam pockets allowing some localized super heating due to a lack of head pressure at the pump (not cap pressure, but resistance to flow) Stewart water pumps pitches this pretty hard.
For me though, big radiator plus good fan = thermostat temp.
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well today has been maintenance day, I reinstalled the 180 stat and just added water back to the system to get the mixture 70/30 or so with watter wetter in there. I then Hot set my new rockers to 17 hot .. I set them cold a couple of weeks ago at 17 and hot they were about 21-23 ..so 17 hot should be a good spot. installed new cover gaskets and buttoned everything back up .... I let it run for a good 15 min and the temp went to 180 back to 165 to 180 to 190 and sat there .... I will be driving it tonight to the st paul car show ... pretty mild out so I dont exspect to see anything hot tonight .....
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Plus one on what Jay said , going down the highway at speed it should run on the t stat , i am running a 180 in my 434 , aluminum radiator no shroud and a good fan and at idle not moving it may hit 200-205 , but as soon as you move drops back to 180 . The 200 ish number is when its hot out , and no water wetter in this one but it did help on the 390 galaxie .. Bud
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yes it should run stat temp going down the hwy. It dont , and I can't get it to. after the reinstall of the 180 stat and reducing the antifreeze and adding water wetter it still ran the same... first 5 miles or so it would bounce around 180-190 (stat temp) 10 miles mark it was climbing to 200... 20 mile mark it was locked on to 205-210 and would not lower till i got to st paul and then dropped to 200 or so till I shut it down .... Seems like it takes 15-20 miles for everything to heat soak/trans temps to get the heat up there. once there it stays there ..... I dont think it's a problem,And should just toss the temp gauge out the window so I dont keep looking at it. LOL .... I just think it should run stat temp on the hwy.
Thought ? I run a 3,500 tci stall,and the trans cooler is through the raid and through a after market cooler... could the trans temp be getting hot enuff to cause the coolant temp to raise up like this ? I do not have a trans temp gauge installed ....
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A lot of guys have had this issue when running thick aftermarket aluminum radiators. When the engine and trans is making more heat at road speeds, the thick core just can't get enough air through it to cool properly. It basically becomes an air dam. When aluminum radiators started becoming popular, 3 and 4 rows used to be more common. Today, a 4 row is pretty uncommon....for a reason. As hot rodders, it's sometimes hard to get away from the "more is better" philosophy :)
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The tranny heat could be a factor for sure , mine is a five speed and my radiator is a summit universal fit and my top hose is stock but bottom hose i had to stare at all the hoses at auto zone , found one close and a trim to fit but i dont think it s has thick as yours , and when you look at say 1990 and up to present they use aluminum but not that thick . You could try running a bigger tranny cooler or one with a fan on it or even a tranny pan thats aluminum and finned . And maybe you should check tranny temp as well just to see where it s at when your temp is at 205 or higher .. Bud
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Cooling system stuff is funny. I have had exactly the same experience with water wetter that you have - absolutely zero gain. Yet some people swear by it.
And contrary to your experience, I have never seen coolant temperatures decrease with an increase in the thermostat temperature. I will say this again, for what it's worth: Driving down the highway at 60 MPH, your coolant temperature should be exactly on the thermostat temperature. If its not, your cooling system is lacking in some way, most likely in the radiator's ability to dissipate the heat.
In any case, glad your combination got the problem solved - Jay
I have to 2nd Jay's Red Line WW. I have had WW make the temp gauge show cooler a few degree's but really use less. One item I have found that does TRANSFER HEAT FROM THE CASTING TO THE COOLANT is Motor Max Fire Freeze. I learned about it years ago during the Kenny D. Buick GN Vs. Gene Deputy's Texas Turbo war's early 90's working with them both on head gaskets. They both told me that after adding the Fire Freeze that both of they cars' and their customers car's with EFI and knock sensors would NOT retard ignition timing as much. Now 6-8 degree's is a lot on our FE's but it is MONSTER on a boosted engine. You engine will warm up in half the amount of time that it does with any other mixture that I have found. Read that as street driven less wear and more mileage from faster warm up. I have only found it on line. http://firefreeze.com/ and then go to products it's the last one on the page. And no I have no affiliation with them.
Love to heard your results as I have used it in all of my cars and boats with closed cooling systems.
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I run trans coolers on all my stuff, extra insurance, on the lets sit in traffic and roast in the 100 plus heat situations.
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hey bartlett, what make is that shroud?
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You engine will warm up in half the amount of time that it does with any other mixture that I have found. Read that as street driven less wear and more mileage from faster warm up. I have only found it on line. http://firefreeze.com/ and then go to products it's the last one on the page. And no I have no affiliation with them.
Love to heard your results as I have used it in all of my cars and boats with closed cooling systems.
How could the coolant , which is as cold as the engine when it fires up put heat into the engine and make it warm up faster?
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Mike, if your reading this, it was great to see you again at Sally's! Here's a real shocker. I got late last week an e-mail from another old pal of yours from the past, Mike Sebrowski. Seems he saw an old blog of mine on the FE Forum about the Migut Brothers and used my screen info to contact me. He's away this week on vacation but after I gave him your e-mail addy, he promised to contact you soon. Ain't the Web and these Ford blogs a great thing? LOL.
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i see your running an electric temp guage with the sender on water pump. try putting it on the intake boss above the thermostat housing where it shoul be. also try checking the guage, i have had 2 autometer temp guages crap out on me in about as many years. also go online to dove website and buy their adjustable thermostat neck. they have a stud you turn to adjust the opening and then a jam nut to hold in place. i put two of them on my 2 cars and get rid of those spacers with holes in them, that way you can really fine tune the water flow through the system. hope it helps.
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Hummm. Run a 180 stat and hit 215. Then went to a 195 stat 200~205...
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What size pulley are you running? Do you have a plate on the back of the impeller? Sometimes those things can help. A cross flow Rad is better at cooling then a down flow. Just some thoughts