FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: Bad Byrd on February 13, 2014, 07:37:09 AM
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So every now and again I just get a real good nights sleep and I wake up with what I think is a real good idea. My history with building cars and bikes goes back 30 yrs, however the majority of that time is mainly over the last 15 with higher HP technology stuff. I have decided to ditch this carb stuff and and run a FAST EZ-EFI system.
Now my question is to you Engine builders with EFI conversions.
I have three options to choose from all based off of intakes I already own, I am not looking for the max HP, but a combo of HP, Original looking old school motor and drive ability. My combination is as follows:
1) Bored and stroked cross Bolt main 406 so CI is 445
2) Lentech AOD
3) Rear end gear is a 3.89
4) Car weight is about 3900 lbs wet (1961 Thunderbird)
Intakes available
1) Ford LR 1963 Dual Quad ( Thinking FAST EZ with dual quad upgrade Kit )
2) Shelby Side winder
3) Edelbrock Street Master
All three intakes have plus or minuses I am sure, the one that intrigues me the most is the dual quad with the FAST EZ, however I have read on this forum some short comings on the EZ system and I have also read the EZ 2.0 is a better system................I sure like the looks and the function of the 2.0 better so the right fit might very well be the Street Master or the Shelby which I know most here dont really like that intake for performance.
So what to do? I will be interested in hearing your thoughts, One thing is for sure................I have made up my mind and the carb really needs to go away.................Hell Its been so long I cant even remember how to tune on of those things!!! LOL
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Any of those intakes will support the horsepower levels that you will be making with that engine, assuming they are in the 425-475 HP range. I'll bet if you compared them on the dyno they'd all be within 10 HP of each other. On the 2X4 intake, you may have a fit problem; on the factory 3X2 Thunderbird intakes, the carb pads were flat rather than angled, and I believe that this was for clearance issues to the cowl or the hood. Your 2X4 intake has the angled carb pads, so that could pose a problem.
If it was me, and the fit problems could be resolved, I'd run the 2X4 intake, just because it looks period correct and 2X4 setups are just cool in general. Otherwise I'd run the Streetmaster.
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Hey Jay
The clearance isnt an issue at all, the Hood has been modified with a 4" Cowl hood scoop. the Angle issues is easily overcome with a Phenolic Machined spacer to get them flat and on plane I have done 3D cad drawings in inventor already to fix that issue if I used it.
The motor better produce more then 475HP, I have a lot of $ wrapped up in the porting of those factory heads, Callies Ultra rods, and stroker crank to see only 475. I might very well be asking too much from this old motor, but I dont have nearly the flow numbers out of the wifes 427 SBC and it throws down 400 to the tire behind a TH400. We will see though!
I am intrigued as well by the dual Quad set-up but no way to run the 2.0 version I would have to see if I can fit the original style system on there to make it fit. I would be very cool though! I do like the looks of the street master best out of the singles.............It just needs some serious work to get it to the porting level I have already done to the Shelby!
Thanx for the opinion I appreciate it!
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If you are running more than 475 HP, I'd really recommend going with a different intake; all three of them will be horsepower limiting over 500 HP or so. Maybe a medium riser 2X4 intake, or a Performer RPM? How much power do you expect to make with that engine?
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You know Jay I really don't know what to expect, I am so used to pulling big numbers from a Mod motor these old school builds just boggle my mind. The goal was to see 500hp to 525hp..................Which is so disappointing for the $ spent. I could have built a 800 HP mod motor for what it cost to build this motor. But at the end of the day it all comes down to drivability which the limiting factor with Higher HP old technology and a street car.
When you come from having a low 10 second daily driven 5000 lb truck to a 4000 lb old school FE that will be lucky to run with a Bone stock Subaru STI the whole thought is kind of depressing when you truly think about it. But it is what it is, and I know what I am dealing with.
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BByrd, a couple of thoughts.
First, if you insist on the use of components that were designed back in the sixties, you should expect to get '60s numbers from the dyno. New-design heads, with their greater combustion-chamber efficiency, coupled with the new runner profiles that then become available, will give a significant numbers boost. Particularly if you use the flow studies you do as the basis for your camshaft design. You need to start with a 21st Century perspective.
I have done a number of EFI conversions on FEs. Working with the Holley development people, I did the first dual-throttle-body installation on a MR 427, back when EFI conversions were just becoming available. On a street '67 Mustang, the Holley dual throttle bodies were good for almost two seconds reduction from 1500 to 6000 in second gear. That's over ANY pair of carbs. The project resulted in an ongoing series of articles I wrote for Super Ford Magazine. I'll never use a carburetor again.
KS
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You know Jay I really don't know what to expect, I am so used to pulling big numbers from a Mod motor these old school builds just boggle my mind. The goal was to see 500hp to 525hp..................Which is so disappointing for the $ spent. I could have built a 800 HP mod motor for what it cost to build this motor. But at the end of the day it all comes down to drivability which the limiting factor with Higher HP old technology and a street car.
When you come from having a low 10 second daily driven 5000 lb truck to a 4000 lb old school FE that will be lucky to run with a Bone stock Subaru STI the whole thought is kind of depressing when you truly think about it. But it is what it is, and I know what I am dealing with.
Weren't those mod motors supercharged or turbocharged? That's a whole different animal, of course. My supercharged FE made 1030 HP on the dyno, on 17 pounds of boost. If you are looking for big power numbers why don't you consider a turbo or a blower?
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Hey Jay
Not really looking for big numbers on this particular project, just making a general statement about the lack of HP per cubic dollar spent. Running a Supercharger on a FE and make it run on 93 isn't what I would call very reliable unless you willing to fork out $40K to $50K and I might as well put a Proline BBC in it and stomp the FE's guts out. This is probably why I am such a mod motor fan.....................For $25K I am dancing with 900 to 1000 HP motor and trans and driving it to work every day!
No I am good where I am at, I just need to ditch the whole carb thing, run the Fast 2.0 and call it good. It surely isn't going to win me any titles in the 1/4 mile...............But with the set-up I have I will surely stomp a civic or two! LOL
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Hey Jay
Not really looking for big numbers on this particular project, just making a general statement about the lack of HP per cubic dollar spent. Running a Supercharger on a FE and make it run on 93 isn't what I would call very reliable unless you willing to fork out $40K to $50K and I might as well put a Proline BBC in it and stomp the FE's guts out. This is probably why I am such a mod motor fan.....................For $25K I am dancing with 900 to 1000 HP motor and trans and driving it to work every day!
No I am good where I am at, I just need to ditch the whole carb thing, run the Fast 2.0 and call it good. It surely isn't going to win me any titles in the 1/4 mile...............But with the set-up I have I will surely stomp a civic or two! LOL
Right around the 500-600 hp level, mod motors are actually more expensive to build than an FE. Not only do you have to buy the forged internals, etc, you have to buy the boost on top of that; were an FE will do it naturally aspirated. Or for less money than a mod motor or an FE, build a boosted 460 based stroker and shoot for 1500hp on pump, but that wouldn't be as cool or different as an FE.
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I have had a Fast 2 system on my 433 FE with Tri Power fuel injection , it has been up and running for 5 months it has been faultless . No doubt it is not a cheap setup to start with but the overall look is very impressive and the driving of it is bloody unreal . Very smooth in its operation and delivers the goods at WOT .
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I have an ez2.0 on my 433ci FE,also nearing 5 months and it to is flawless. Its on an RPM with a 1" open spacer.
The timing control sold me on it,as well as the 8 injectors in the TB.
All my plugs look the same so distribution seems to be good.
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I love comparing apples to bowls of petunias falling from the sky! ;D
Here's an FE powered vehicle that went 400mph. Naturally aspirated*!
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2549/4138863556_d277a94b1f_b.jpg)
*One motor naturally aspirated. One not so much. Your mileage may vary. Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
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^ Now THAT is cool! 8)
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I guess My 550-600HP 390 that runs on 92-93 Pump is unfeasible :P, It was built for less than 6000.00 ( in 1996 ) ran great for 14 years ( refreshing now ) I agree with the above posts Old Tech Gets You Old Numbers , and even the best Parts may not perform depending on the combo , Sometimes it aint the Ingredients , its " the Cook" , I built a 390 with a 671 blower because then ( and even more so now , 427, blocks are still More than the Blower Kit was ( same deal back in 1986) I am sorry the Gentleman had a disappointing ) outcome on his FE , but not all have 8)
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Not Insulted or any of that , How is the Dist working for you ? its hard to know who is posting by log in names :o, I hope you did not take offense to anything I posted , I like all Fords Mod 5.0 FE etc , good luck with your projects
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No offense Faron.................none taken at all..................I am not even brand specific these days. I like my Ford, I like my Chevy's, dont own a dodge at the moment I have in the past and they run damn well too. Distributor hasnt been put in yet, After deciding to change to Injection I have not sunk that one down yet. I just picked up a Lentech AOD so some major changes have have been made to slow the progression.
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Somebody has got to tell my v10 about this 20 MPG stuff. ;D 5 is all it gets now. :'(
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Somebody has got to tell my v10 about this 20 MPG stuff. ;D 5 is all it gets now. :'(
I had a Crew Cab dually 4x4 about 9 yrs ago with a Kenne Bell Supercharged V-10, and it did about 12 on the freeway..................Hard to understand the 5 but I guess its possible. That was a cool rig, Dyno'd at 575/830 to the tires on 8 lbs of boost................was pretty cool tow vehicle!
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My 07 shelby was hard pressed to get 20 mpg on the highway , combination driving was about 16-17 , had a v-10 as well 11.5 mpg , i know what your say ng though new vs old .. BUT an fe can make awsome hp and maybe Jay needs to make an adapter for the mod motor super chargers out foe the fe ...... Bud ;)
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My 07 shelby was hard pressed to get 20 mpg on the highway , combination driving was about 16-17 , had a v-10 as well 11.5 mpg , i know what your say ng though new vs old .. BUT an fe can make awsome hp and maybe Jay needs to make an adapter for the mod motor super chargers out foe the fe ...... Bud ;)
Then you would actually have something, a intercooled Twin screw on a FE! No more heat generating Roots style superchargers. Drove my Lightning from Portland Oregon to Pamona california through the mountains and still averaged 20.2 MPG! Street tune was north of 600 at the tire the only major difference was I went from 3.73 rear end gears to a 3.55!
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I had an engineer from Whipple contact me a few weeks ago about building a box to fit on my intake adapter, so that a Whipple supercharger would bolt on. The box was going to contain an air to water intercooler. I'm working on getting him some drawings so he could start on that project; I think a Whipple on an FE would be pretty cool...
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I sold a SOHC 427 powered 57 Bird for a friend last year. Those engines are really wedged in there and you have to get pretty creative to make everything work. His was done with a brand new crate engine in 1972 when he pulled out a twin Paxton supercharged 312.
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I sold a SOHC 427 powered 57 Bird for a friend last year. Those engines are really wedged in there and you have to get pretty creative to make everything work. His was done with a brand new crate engine in 1972 when he pulled out a twin Paxton supercharged 312.
That is quite a job I will agree, and I loved them both.
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FYI I have deleted a bunch of posts in this thread - Jay
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Thanx Jayb
Sorry for the distraction!