FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: 428Marauder on February 03, 2014, 08:29:42 PM
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Hello. I have a 1965 Mercury Marauder that has had the motor and trans changed to a 428. It was running well for awhile, after I had the carb rebuilt, then this summer I started having problems with it stalling out on me, and then not wanting to start. Usually it starts when cold and drives fine for about 5 miles before it starts to sputter and stop, particularly at low speeds.
Here's what I've done:
Added trans cooler
Replaced exhaust
Replaced points
Replaced coil
Replaced battery
Cleaned carb
Changed from electric fuel pump to mechanical
Drove it today and it ran fine, then stalled, sputtered and coughed, and again didn't want to restart but did while in a parking lot. Then on the way home it stalled again while making a u-turn, started up, and then drove the rest of the way home without a problem.
I already paid a mechanic to rip me off, charged me way too much to replace the points and clean the carb ... and somehow bent the fan and ruined my radiator, then said it was like that when I got there ... so I put in a new aluminum radiator ... problem is, a 5 minute test drive, the car is gonna be fine. Once it heats up is when it starts to stall.
Any ideas?
PS. My temp gauge is broken, so I don't know how hot it is running, but I know what an overheating motor sounds like, and it's not knocking.
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428,
Kinda reminds me of a fuel issue or lack of it! Are you sure the pump is ok? I would also check the lines, cap, and any fuel filters in the system. Btw when I first drove my Fairlane home it stalled and quit on me about 1 block from home! Turned out the batt cables were trash and not making contact... I suspected it when I looked at them, and then tried jiggling them a little. It started right up and carried me that last block home.
Bruce
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The pump is brand new, and I was having the same problem with the electric pump (plus flooding issues), so I'm pretty sure it's not the pump. (note: throttle seemed more responsive with the electric pump, but it was higher PSI than needed).
Car runs fine, until it heats up. Somehow the problem is related to heat.
Needs new battery cables anyway, I'll try that, but I don't suspect that is the issue.
One thing I was thinking is that the gas tank is maybe rusting from the inside, fouling the gas? Or maybe I should be using higher octane gas? I don't want to take on replacing the gas tank, if at all possible. Maybe try a can of seafoam? I've never used that stuff and can't imagine it will make a big difference.
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Are you running a carb spacer , between carb and intake ? , if not try a phenolic spacer and check fuel line from pump to carb and make sure it away from the block and intake manifold . And what octane gas are you running .. BUD
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I'd empty the tank and check the fuel pickup for an obstruction. Do you have inline fuel filters and if so how do they look as Bruce questioned? How close are the fuel lines to the heads, intake,and any other heat source?
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I think there is a fuel filter right before the carb, but nothing inline. Some of the fuel lines are right on top of the valve covers, I tried adding some wooden clothes pins there (old vapor lock trick) as a heat buffer, but same issue.
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Are you running a carb spacer , between carb and intake ? , if not try a phenolic spacer and check fuel line from pump to carb and make sure it away from the block and intake manifold . And what octane gas are you running .. BUD
No spacer. What is a phenolic spacer? (suppose I can google it).
The cheap stuff. 87.
The guy I got the motor from said it had been rebuilt around 2000, and had less than 1k miles on it since, so if that's true ... 87 should be fine, no?
I've spent about $600 in the last month trying to figure this out ... car runs about the same. Usually it's fine for the short trips I take, like to work and back, where it has a chance to cool down, but if I try and go to run some errands after work, stop at the bank and the grocery store ... I can expect problems. Not a daily driver ... but it would be nice if it could be if I wanted it to.
The gas tank is going to need to be replaced at some point, just can't afford that right now. Gas gauge has never worked since I got it, and I suspect it's the sending unit, so when that old tank comes out ... might as well put in a whole new deal there.
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Video of running engine (back when it was on the electric pump):
http://www.flickr.com/photos/arizonaclassiccars/5446716685/in/set-72157623491547733
That was also before I replaced the exhaust, which included re-planing the exhaust manifolds. No more exhaust leak.
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I used to have a Jeep that had a little fuel injected 4 banger in it, and I installed a throttle body spacer to make it faster ... are you saying that maybe the carb is getting too hot?
Just give me a reason to install a functional teardrop cowl induction hood. I'll do it man .... seriously. I put a lot of time into making that hood nice, only part of the car ready for paint. I've always thought it would look really cool with a teardrop hood though. I'll cut a big hole in the hood if it makes the car run better.
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Today's fuel boils at a very low temperature compared to gas back in the day. Its normally under 40-50 psi of pressure in a fuel injection system, so it doesn't need to have a high boiling point; the pressure raises the boiling point to a sufficient temperature. Unfortunately this doesn't work so well for carbed systems, because the fuel is exposed to normal atmospheric pressure in the float bowl.
My guess is your fuel is boiling and flooding the engine after the engine heats up. Here's a way you can check this: find a local source for some leaded race gas, like 110 octane, and try 10 gallons of that in your tank. Race fuel boils at a much higher temperature, and is much friendlier to older engines. If the car runs well on race gas, you know the problem.
The solution is a little more difficult. Unless you want to mix race gas with your regular fuel all the time, you have to do some things to keep the fuel and carburetor cool. A wooden or phenolic spacer under the carb will help, and moving the fuel lines well away from the sources of heat in the engine compartment will also help. The best solution is a return style fuel system, where there are two fuel lines from the tank, one running to the engine and the other running back to the tank. A return style fuel pressure regulator will keep the fuel circulating past the carb, and only deliver the fuel that the carb needs. This keeps the fuel in the line cool. If you don't have that, especially in low fuel requirement situations, the fuel will stay in the line leading up to the carburetor for a relatively long time, and it can get hot. As soon as it comes through the needle and seat in the carb it is no longer pressurized, and will often boil, spitting out of the carb vents and into the engine, flooding it. With a return style fuel system the fuel is cool when it hits the carb, and doesn't boil.
Hope that helps - Jay
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Helps a lot. Thanks.
Next question ... can I do a return style system myself? Is there an electric pump inbetween? I'm not a really great mechanic, but I can do jobs that take a long time and don't make sense for me to hire a mechanic to do. Is it all just plumbing or do you need a gas tank set up for that? I almost don't need to try the race gas ... you nailed it.
P.S. My first car, in 1986 was a 69 Mustang coupe. Factory scoop with the turn signal indicators that didn't work. Cut a hole in the hood and put a little air cleaner in there to make it ram air. 250 inline 6 cyl, 3 speed ... was actually pretty fast, a lot lighter than a V8 fastback or convertible. Nice Mach 1. My dream car, 69 Boss 429. The black one.
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I had an older brother, that died a few years ago ... and he was really smart and could always figure out stuff and tell me how to do stuff ... he had a REALLY fast Mustang. So, thanks to all of you for helping me. This seems like an awesome place and I will do my best to contribute here.
My brother's race car:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBzZdIBA9bU
Fastest 96 Mustang convertible .... ever? I could never understand putting that kinda money into trying to get an 8.X second thrill. If you are rich, or retired and that's how you want to spend your time ... God bless ya ... but don't be an addict about it ... spending more than you can afford. I wrecked 1 car ... in my life, a 65 Galaxie convertible ... I got it stuck on some train tracks, and a train came. Nothing I could do. Every other car I ever owned I fixed it up while I drove it, sold it for more than I paid for it. I've never made a car payment. If I don't have the money, I don't buy the car. It's insane to me that someone might spend $45k on a new car, when you might be able to find a decent 60's Shelby Mustang at that price.
Crib notes: I paid $900 for my car, done a lot of work myself ... have about $9k in parts, and outside labor alone in the car ... and it's still not ready for paint. It was a rustbucket. 4 years I been working on this car. Never again will I take on a car with rust issues. Pics in the projects forum.
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Next question ... can I do a return style system myself? Is there an electric pump inbetween?
You can do a return system yourself! But that kind of depends on the pump. Some pumps dead head and others require a return. What electric pump did you use!? And what was the PSI @ the carb?
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Unless I missed it, you're still running the mechanical pump? Older vacuum test gauges would often double as fuel pressure gauges. Should run fine if you've got 3-1/2 lbs or so and your system is otherwise set up factory style.
I agree with the earlier comment about checking your tank and lines for obstruction, but I'd also try an in-line pressure gauge close to the carb first. You can watch from when it's cold 'till when it stalls. I'll assume that the electric pump is somewhere down along the frame, but the same test could be run on either setup.
Vapor lock is a big deal with mechanical systems, fuel lines running over valve covers would cause me to re-route to the front and over the intake factory style, get your lines away from heat sources whenever possible.
I'm running a factory style mechanical pump with no return line on a 750 vac sec Holley with zero issues.
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Next question ... can I do a return style system myself? Is there an electric pump inbetween?
You can do a return system yourself! But that kind of depends on the pump. Some pumps dead head and others require a return. What electric pump did you use!? And what was the PSI @ the carb?
It was just a generic one. Was running at 12 PSI.
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It was just a generic one. Was running at 12 PSI.
Thats why you had the problems that you did. You needed a fuel pressure regulator up near the carb and set it for 6~8psi. 12 is way too much for any needle and seat on a carb. JMHO
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Yeah, thats why I decided to just go back to a mechanical pump.
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JUST make sure your fuel line is away the hot motor , and intake .. you can insulate your fuel line as well , and phenoic spacer is available thru summit or even at local parts stores and they keep the carb insulated from manifold heat .. Bud
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Plus 1 to all the above. When my engine's cold my in line pressure gauge bounces between 7 and 3 psi with every stroke of the pump. At that rate my carb has never had issues, your 428 should run fine there. 12 PSI sounds like an early GM TBI pressure, I'd stick with mechanical 'till you get it sorted out since you already have the parts.
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Gee, I'm repeating an old post of mine from other Forums! Crack the gas cap immediately after it stalls. If you get a big whoosh, it's a form of vapor lock from lack of gas tank venting. To double check, remove the cap, tape off the tank's fill tube completely with duct tape and punch a small 1/8" hole in the tape. Drive it and see if stalling goes away. If so, it's the factory steel vent tube under the car is blocked, if so equipped, or the gas cap isn't vented.
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Yeah you can check your vent as well , on other question is doe s your gas have 10 percent or more ethanol in it ? ..Bud
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I'm not sure the ethanol percentage in AZ.
But I did reroute the fuel line that was resting on the intake below the spark plug wires to above the wires and so far, so good.
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If your fuel line was actually resting on the intake the re-route was a must. Even if it doesn't solve the issue its a big step in the right direction to control incoming fuel temp.
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I had some very similar symptoms that I fought for quite a while, ended up being 3" section of hose that connects fuel tank to hard line going to front. Hose was original with no exterior cracking but had crack on inside of hose going under clamp. Sucking just enough air to cause issues. I had thought it was heat related because it had started almost immediately after a new exhaust installation.
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Amazing. It may be the aluminum radiator and replacement factory fan ... but no, she was still stalling out.
That was it. Re-routing the fuel line so it was not resting on the intake. Took me five minutes ... fix a problem I've been battling for years. Good news is, new fuel pump, new fan, new radiator, new voltage regulator, alternator, water pump, battery ... everything is new on it ... and it just runs like a champ. I tell ya. There's no replacement for displacement. We'll see if I can drive her in 110 degree Arizona heat ... that's the real test. Anyone try Watter Wetter?
Also I put in some 89 octane gas. In Arizona it can be up to 10% ethanol.
This is a ribbed service block 428 with a 1U stamped crank. You could call it a Cobra Jet ... with mild, pretty standard heads. My first FE, but I am an old Ford guy. Been harder than I thought. Does not like heat. If she gets too hot, she starts puking trans fluid out of the front seal.
I added a trans cooler, as well, but so far the aluminum radiator is performing really well, despite the fact that it doesn't fit perfectly.
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Yes ive used water wetter before and it did help , glad you got it sorted out and todays gas does not like heat much , but just do every thing you can to help .. Bud
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Good news 428 :D- A car that doesn't stall along with all the new pieces should make it fun to cruise. On the water (or coolant?), some thoughts- Are you running a closed system with recovery? How's the cap, holding pressure? Thermostat? A missing thermostat allows the coolant to circulate too quickly and doesn't give the radiator time to do it's job. Even a high quality aluminum radiator can fall behind if the flow isn't properly regulated.
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This is a ribbed service block 428 with a 1U stamped crank. You could call it a Cobra Jet ... with mild, pretty standard heads. My first FE, but I am an old Ford guy. Been harder than I thought. Does not like heat. If she gets too hot, she starts puking trans fluid out of the front seal.
We could call it a 428 cj. Or.... we could just call it a highly overbored FE with a 428 crankshaft that overheats at the drop of a hat. Either way.
Few other thoughts worth mentioning, heat help here in the deep south.
1. Best and biggest carb spacer you can fit
2. block exhaust crossover in intake
3. Don't mount your coil on top of the intake. It'll get smokin hot and heat soaked in no time (makes it hard to start hot as well). Mount it in front of the driver side head if you can.