FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: Matthias390 on December 30, 2025, 05:06:22 AM
-
Hello from Germany,
my machine shop measured the cylinder wall thicknesses of my 390 FE block before starting to work on it.
The thinnest spot he measured is 0,4mm (0.016"). Cylinder 4, thrust side, adjacent to the freeze plug. Other spots on cylinders 1, 2 and 3 are around 1,2mm (0.047").
Cylinders 5, 6, 7 & 8 all have thin spots at around 1,8mm (0.071").
He said this is due to core shift and heavy rust in the coolant passage.
The block is standard size 4.050.
Target bore is 4.080, already bought new pistons and rings for 4.080
Goal for the motor is:
Torquey truck engine, max rpm around 5500
- 9,5 - 10,0 compression
- New Forged Sealed Power pistons
- New Molnar rods
- New Edelbrock aluminum heads
- New Roller cam from @blykins
- New Roller rockers from @blykins
- New Performer RPM intake
- New Headers
- Crank is 0.01 under and has been straightened and meticulously balanced with and without damper/flex plate
I have already bought ALL the parts, everything, spent well over 10.000$ in parts already (remember I have to have everything shipped to Germany and pay German VAT and import taxes) and budget is getting thin.
- The block has all the oil mods (by myself)
- The block has already received a line hone for the mains (@ a different machine shop)
My goal is perfection. I am 52 years old and intend to never open this engine ever again once it is finished. Do it once, do it right.
Boring/honing will be done with a boring plate.
Considering all this:
Does sleeving the block make sense?
My current machine shop (does only American V8s, nothing else) has never done sleeving and is sceptical.
He won't do it because he has never done it before.
Another machine shop, also specialized in American, V8s, specifically Ford, told me on the phone that doing 8 sleeves is absolutely no problem, has done it many times before, never an issue. Even on race engines for historic motorsport (Cobras, GT40s, Mustangs) well over 500HP, no issue.
He would put 8 sleeves in my block for reasonable money.
He said something about sleeve wall thickness of 5mm (about 0.197")
I asked him if it wouldn't be a problem that the sleeves will partially be in coolant and partially not: He said "No problem"
I asked him if the block will distort again during sleeving process, hence destroy the line honing of my main bearings: "No problem"
I am sceptical. What is your opinion?
Please keep in mind that finding a spare block in Germany/Europe is not so easy. Currently there is only 1 FE block in standard bore being offered, rough condition, the guy wants 1.600€ (about 1.900$ !!) and I don't know if this block is cracked, and how thick thy cylinder walls are.
Any thoughts are appreciated. Thanks guys.
best regards
Matthias
-
I am skeptical of the sonic check, that's thinner than any 390 I have ever seen, even bored.
Any way you can get another machine on it?
-
I also would not trust those sonic check numbers. I have never seen any FE block with numbers that thin. Perhaps buy a cheap sonic tester and do it yourself? Here's one on ebay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/201134359545?_skw=ultrasonic+thickness+tester&itmmeta=01KDQNPZXE863S954HWJBQN4PQ&hash=item2ed48ac3f9:g:32gAAOSwGvhT0Lxc&itmprp=enc%3AAQAKAAAA0FkggFvd1GGDu0w3yXCmi1e1me7yinCBRyR3Jx0%2B0EKduEuterQjTPpp6glalR3K%2FqnlV1Oi6xvE%2Fvs7GhIAX7VzriH7YwbrjDdDkOIhLRMzRuWqY5%2BToR6KBBgDJZh351fhdtoMY43lAHeuk%2BGR6ijjjibAhmYiSMLcj4E0A9L2zB%2BJbRLcg5A8rTYZRiB3qx5U9PDCdirwxvayxEwrviZlsstkMdVRSbDjjGjiBkhIZAmbyPeIeC04bgNenIiwXRKpA%2FU2BDRg1zpQsmf3rnk%3D%7Ctkp%3ABlBMUPT-2_XtZg
If you do this, you will have to carefully round the transducer so that it conforms to the shape of the cylinder bore. A few minutes with a file will do it.
Regarding sleeving 8 cylinders, this is a VERY bad idea. The shop who told you that probably doesn't have experience doing that with FEs. Sleeving adjacent cylinders will result in cracks at the deck between the bores after a few thousand miles, and the resultant coolant leaks. Sleeves are fine as long as they are confined to an individual cylinder, not two cylinders next to each other.
-
I'm having a hard believing .016 thickness too
-
No way is sonic checker is correct. Time for a recalculate .
-
Thanks so far.
I am with you. .016 sounds radically thin, one should almost be able to push it in with a finger.
Engine builder sounded pretty bewildered, too, when he told me about it on the phone. He said it is by a very large margin the thinnest cylinder he has measured in his career.
He claimed he double checked the calibration of his device twice.
I attached the pictures he sent me. Measurements in the second picture are metric, in mm, of course.
He stopped measuring bank 1 in more detail after he discovered the ultra-thin spot.
I remember seeing and removing the thick rust in the coolant passage. I attached a few pictures from the day I disassembled the block.
Had I known earlier, that Ford blocks are cast particularly thin per se, my alarm bells would have rung right then and there, but since I'm new to Ford, I didn't know.
I take away so far:
- Sleeving all 8 is a no go. That was also my personal feeling.
- Triple check the sonic measurement, maybe I can get away with sleeving only #4
-
Take a vacation to the US and find a 390 block you can use. Build a wood box around it and ship back to Germany. (May be stuck in customs for awhile)
Probably wouldn’t cost much more than the asking price for that other block and you get a vacation as a bonus!
-
Take a vacation to the US and find a 390 block you can use. Build a wood box around it and ship back to Germany. (May be stuck in customs for awhile)
Probably wouldn’t cost much more than the asking price for that other block and you get a vacation as a bonus!
Not an unreasonable idea.
Against it speak:
I don't have a suitable amount of free days from work until maybe September.
I don't want to (can't) spent that kind of money. Neither for a used block in Germany nor for a vacation with block-purchase ;-)
-
Are there any American car clubs around there? I had similar, reverse problems in the 90s working and restoring my '71 Westphalia camper bus. The local VW club was helpful pointing me towards mechanics and sometimes "unofficial" junkyards of people that had a lot of parts. This was before the Internet, though, so it might be less useful now, with everyone online.
Another technique is to look for ads of people selling rusted, wrecked cars or trucks, especially less desirable models. They may be priced cheap enough that if they have a decent engine you can use, you can just throw the rest of the car away. :)
Pat
-
get a good media blast to clean the water jacket well - even two times if necessary- only way to get a really good sonic test- watch for salt water use or chemicals in water--could be real odd chemical reaction-- media clean should not effect line hone--- good luck--possible good block ship from u.s.--military service member move-or?? good 352 us block--john
-
If the cylinders were indeed that thin, I couldn`t imagine that engine wouldn`t have split all the cylinder walls in normal use. Or how they could all possibly so thin at 4.05" standard bore, unless maybe it was a boat engine that was using salt water cooling, and that ate away more of the cylinder walls from the backside. Many years ago, when I worked at an engine shop, we had a Chevy 11 style 4 cylinder engine (Think 194 6 cylinder missing 2 cylinders), that was a boat engine, that was getting coolant in the oil. When the water pump was removed, you see pinholes that went completely thru the cylinder walls.
-
Are there any American car clubs around there? I had similar, reverse problems in the 90s working and restoring my '71 Westphalia camper bus. The local VW club was helpful pointing me towards mechanics and sometimes "unofficial" junkyards of people that had a lot of parts. This was before the Internet, though, so it might be less useful now, with everyone online.
Another technique is to look for ads of people selling rusted, wrecked cars or trucks, especially less desirable models. They may be priced cheap enough that if they have a decent engine you can use, you can just throw the rest of the car away. :)
Pat
Yes, there is a healthy US-car scene here in Germany/Europe. But since I consider you guys here, especially with people of the like of Jay or Brent being active in this forum, a lot more knowledgable and experienced with your own stuff, I rather asked here first for opinions and advice.
I have contacts in Germany who are already on the lookout for a new old block for me over here, but it may take a while until something pops up.
Buyinf an entire car/truck just for the engine is not an option: Space issue and even cars to be parted out are more expensive over here. And: if the engine is still complete and mounted inside a vehicle, it is next to impossible to measure the block precisely to avoid buying another boat anchor.
-
If the cylinders were indeed that thin, I couldn`t imagine that engine wouldn`t have split all the cylinder walls in normal use. Or how they could all possibly so thin at 4.05" standard bore, unless maybe it was a boat engine that was using salt water cooling, and that ate away more of the cylinder walls from the backside. Many years ago, when I worked at an engine shop, we had a Chevy 11 style 4 cylinder engine (Think 194 6 cylinder missing 2 cylinders), that was a boat engine, that was getting coolant in the oil. When the water pump was removed, you see pinholes that went completely thru the cylinder walls.
My machinist and I are both evenly amazed about how this engine did not crack.
He calibrated his ultrasonic device twice (on an old sleeve he has laying around). It has a rounded probe.
I took it out of an unmolested, original, bone stock 1970 F100 that we bought in Oregon and had shipped to Germany. Casting numbers however, indicate it is a 1972 block (and heads). Untracable if this engine was maybe used in a boat. But I consider it unlikely. Engine was bone stock. Even the rod and main bearings had the FORD stamping in them.
The truck it came out of is in pretty good condition, bed has almost full original paint in it, but a hitch and trailer brake was installed, so maybe a lot of towing? Noone knows.
-
I hope he didn't try to measure the cylinder walls with all that schmoo in the cooling jackets. That would certainly lead to the very erratic readings shown. Have them hot tank and clean the block first, then remeasure. Use a piece of pipe with a known wall thickness, say 100 mm OD with a 3 mm wall to check the calibration on the sonic tester.
-
I hope he didn't try to measure the cylinder walls with all that schmoo in the cooling jackets. That would certainly lead to the very erratic readings shown. Have them hot tank and clean the block first, then remeasure. Use a piece of pipe with a known wall thickness, say 100 mm OD with a 3 mm wall to check the calibration on the sonic tester.
No, like a wrote a post above yours, he calibrated his device on an old sleeve.
The pictures you see above were taken by me 1 minute after I removed the freeze plugs.
Since then, I scratched and "chiseled" out all lose rust, durt and grime I could reach, blew it out with compressed air and washed the whole thing intensively with a pressure washer, holding it in the cooling jackets for minutes. The block is now, that he has it in his shop, as clean as it gets.
-
Long shot but you dont have any close ups on deck surfacrs. Really inconsistany for what im thinking.
-
No, like a wrote a post above yours, he calibrated his device on an old sleeve.
This may sound harsh, but I think he screwed up. Calibrate on the china wall, it's the same material and it's easily measured with a caliper. Worst case, at the top of the cylinder where the deck is solid.
There is no way that measurement is correct, buy a tool for yourself or find a second guy with a different tool or some other way to validate.
-
The rust does look bad, but I would guess if it's as bad as it's made out to be, that those oil transfer tubes would be long gone as well. They always seem to fall apart LONG before the cylinders become that bad, especially on a 390. That is one of the most common issues on internally rusty blocks. They seem to be intact though, so I'd check if they held pressure. If so, I'd venture to say those numbers can't be right.
-
Thanks guys, appreciate the input.
Machinist is an engine builder (I only call him "machinist" here and there because I build my engine myself, I pay him only to bore/hone, square the block and plane the heads, cut the valve seats), specialized only in US American V8 engines and he does it for decades. He and I get along well and I kinda trust his expertise.
However, I sure wish you guys are right, which makes me wanna double check the measurement for sure.
Currently, the block along with rotating assembly and heads are still at his place, 3h drive away.
I will pay him a visit as soon as I can and measure the block together with him. I will then triple check on the calibration of his device, putting your tips to use.
-
Long shot but you dont have any close ups on deck surfacrs. Really inconsistany for what im thinking.
Sorry, I don't understand what you're aiming at. Could you elaborate for me?
You wanna see pics of the deck surfaces?
Or are you referring to closed (by rust) water passages on the deck surfaces?
Attached pics show the block right after I took the heads off
-
BTW before I had anything done to the block I did a crack check that turned out ok.
-
if you want to do a good build the press in plugs all need removal also cam bearings---- a good media blast cleaning is a -must- properly done the block will look better and be as clean or cleaner than from the foundry scrape/pressure wash is not good enough---others good with camera/computer skills should be able to show a good clean block -esp. inside water jacket john-old iron
-
Sorry if this has been covered and I missed it, but if he used a sleeve to calibrate his sonic checker, that will not be accurate to check the bores. A sleeve is a much different material than a cast iron block. My sonic checker requires that you select the proper material for an accurate measurement; mine says to use the grey iron setting for cast iron blocks. Check calibration on the rear block rail, as Ross suggests. If the transducer is curved it won't matter, as long as the transducer is held at a 90 degree angle to the flat surface.
-
if you want to do a good build the press in plugs all need removal also cam bearings---- a good media blast cleaning is a -must- properly done the block will look better and be as clean or cleaner than from the foundry scrape/pressure wash is not good enough---others good with camera/computer skills should be able to show a good clean block -esp. inside water jacket john-old iron
Of course everything is removed. Those pictures where taken over a year ago, during disassembly.
Meanwhile, block is clean and no other part is attached to the naked block anymore.
Perfection is the goal. :-)
-
Sorry if this has been covered and I missed it, but if he used a sleeve to calibrate his sonic checker, that will not be accurate to check the bores. A sleeve is a much different material than a cast iron block. My sonic checker requires that you select the proper material for an accurate measurement; mine says to use the grey iron setting for cast iron blocks. Check calibration on the rear block rail, as Ross suggests. If the transducer is curved it won't matter, as long as the transducer is held at a 90 degree angle to the flat surface.
Thank you Jay. That is a good hint. I will tell him to do that.
-
maybe others with camera skills can show what a good media blast looks like on a block and inside water jackets -- a GOOD media blast will look as good or better than foundry new--- I would never build a good motor only scrape and pressure wash ---- you will never get water jackets clean like a media clean any other way --- only total rust removal will give you best sonic read----rust will not measure the same as the base metal--- a good media clean WILL clean ALL water jacket passages lke new!!! john
-
Not sure what you mean by "Media Blast", but if you are referring to something like "Wheelabrading" or shot blasting, my concern would be trying to get ALL of the steel beads out on the block afterwards. I have had cylinder heads cleaned that way, and they look like brand new, but those tiny steel beads can be pretty much impossible to get them all out. Same with sandblasting and glass bead blasting, my machinist buddy has had issues with intake manifolds and cylinder heads that had been glass beaded, and then ended up with errant fragments showing up and seizing up valve guides. I have never "media blasted" a block, and the current 428 had a lot of rust and scale in the water jackets, which took a lot of effort to remove, but patience, some long skinny screw drivers, wire rod (like gas welding rods), compressed air, and some long wire brushes, along with plenty of hot soapy water and time, got the block pretty clean and scale free. I probably spend 3 or 4 hours just of the rust removal, the scale in the bottom of of the water jackets was well over 1/2" deep of loose debris. When I was done, I could fill the jackets with fresh water, shake the block, and when I dumped the water, there was no more flakes coming out. I wonder if a place that dips car bodies in a huge tank to remove rust, like Redi Strip would remove such rust, but there is no such facility anywhere near my location.
-
We bake/tumble all of our cast iron blocks and heads. Most shops that I know of do as well. It makes them look brand new, inside and out. A couple rides in the jet wash afterwards get them clean.
I have had issues with getting glass beaded parts clean in the past, so I mainly do vapor blasting on aluminum parts now.
-
have you looked on ebay uk? there's often fe's for sale, there's a 390 in bits now for under £1000. oh, and a 360 block is the same as a 390 block just with a 352 crank'.
neil.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_fsrp=1&rt=nc&_from=R40&_nkw=ford+fe+v8&_sacat=6030&LH_ItemCondition=7000%7C3000
-
A friend of mine who has a car restoration business, mostly NASCAR and sports racing cars, that I helped with parts on 3 63-1/3 427 Galaxies. He picked up a NOS std bore sideoiler block, and was SOOO proud of it- until we sonic tested it. 7 cylinders were fine, but 1 was at .025 in one spot- guess that one got past quality control at the factory. He got unhappy very quickly
-
Sorry for the thread drift but wasn't the story that someone had managed to purchase a bunch of late production side oiler rejects that were supposed to be destroyed and they had surfaced several years ago up for sale? Jim Kramer
-
have you looked on ebay uk? there's often fe's for sale, there's a 390 in bits now for under £1000. oh, and a 360 block is the same as a 390 block just with a 352 crank'.
neil.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_fsrp=1&rt=nc&_from=R40&_nkw=ford+fe+v8&_sacat=6030&LH_ItemCondition=7000%7C3000
Thanks a lot for that tip. I did not. Will do now :-)
That engine you mentioned is already 40 thousands over. I need a standard bore 360/390, that I can have bored to match my brandnew pistons/rings.
-
Found a block only 120 miles away from home.
Standard bore size 4.05".
My machine guy borrowed me his sonic tester, so I took it with me to check the block out. Measured all the cylinders, 12 spots each.
One spot, pointing toward the front of the block, is 0.08", all the other measurements turned out to be 0.14" to 0.24".
Am pleased with that.
Unfortunately, although the guy I bought it from, is the owner of an engine machine shop, too, he did not have a straight edge. So I could not check the alignment of the main bearings.
But, very pleasantly, although the block looks like oil changes weren't on the regular menu, all the water jackets look almost new. Mister no-oilchange must have at least used proper coolant.
-
But, very pleasantly, although the block looks like oil changes weren't on the regular menu, all the water jackets look almost new. Mister no-oilchange must have at least used proper coolant.
To me, that is a good sign. That means the engine likely hasn't been rebuilt and cut on. That means you're starting with fresh factory surfaces to clean up and likely in stock specs. That's a good thing...usually.
-
Also, I have foumd a rather large "X" casting mark driver side, close to the transmission flange.
In the lifter vallye D3TE ist cast in and beneath the oil filter flange A426
So a 73 casting design, cast on the 26th of April 1974.
The main bearing supports have an additional rib, compared to my other FE block.
Can you guys tell me what this X and the extra ribs are about?
-
Well, that joy of having found a replacement block was short lived.
"New" block is cracked......
How do you guys judge this? Fixable with laser welding?
-
You could do a hard fill on the block. You could use a ceramic sealer on the water jacket. Or you could stitch seam the crack. I'd probably do the ceramic seal as my first choice, with stitch the block as my second. The hard fill has some cooling considerations where the other two don't.
That's really not that bad. If it's not cracked in the crank saddles, you are usually able to repair the block. Lastly, don't trust your eyes. Get the block Magnafluxed. There could be other cracks hiding that you can't see.
-
I don’t know maybe just me but a crack is a no go for me. I know your having a hard time finding a good block but spending money on a cracked block especially an FE which isn’t cheap just doesn’t make sense. It’s not like your doing a numbers matching restoration that that block has to be used.
-
Get the block Magnafluxed. There could be other cracks hiding that you can't see.
Isn't that the mag particle tool I can see in the pictures?
-
Did you ever go back and recheck your old block?
-
The BB Mopar guys would just drill the end of that crack and JB weld it... I'd recommend cleaning the block and doing a complete mag and pressure test. If that is the only crack best way to fix it would be with lock-n-stitch. As for what block you have sounds like it is from the MCC foundry. They only made 360/390 blocks and all came with the crows foot main webbing. Easy way to ID them is they have a mirror 105 where the DIF blocks have a 352. Decent block, but some had problems with the oil feed to the heads cracking. If you find that you can just sleeve the feed hole.
Edit: looking at your picture of the block I can see the 105.
-
As mentioned, every "105" 360/390 block that I have seen has the extra main webbing. The cracked block, assuming the outer water jacket is the only cracked area, is routinely repaired with the Lock N Stitch, pretty common stuff at machine shops. That said, if it was a 427 or 428 block, it may be worth the expense, but for a 390 block, personally I would look for another block. I understand that FEs are rather scarce in Europe, so that could be a factor. It may be a coincidence, but the few times that I have had a FE block that put oil into the cooling system via the passage inside the bolt, has been on a 105 block.
-
Did you ever go back and recheck your old block?
No, it is still at the machine shop, a 4h drive away from home.
The machine shop guy mailed me his sonic tester when I went checking out the "new" block. I mailed it back to him. When I go bring him the "new" block, I will pick up my old block and will repeat the sonic messurement together with him.
Anyway, I trust him. He is a pretty competend dude and he has built his fair share of American V8 engines (it's all he does, US American V8 engines)
-
The BB Mopar guys would just drill the end of that crack and JB weld it... I'd recommend cleaning the block and doing a complete mag and pressure test. If that is the only crack best way to fix it would be with lock-n-stitch. As for what block you have sounds like it is from the MCC foundry. They only made 360/390 blocks and all came with the crows foot main webbing. Easy way to ID them is they have a mirror 105 where the DIF blocks have a 352. Decent block, but some had problems with the oil feed to the heads cracking. If you find that you can just sleeve the feed hole.
Edit: looking at your picture of the block I can see the 105.
I will definetaly check the complete block with the paint intrusion method before I spend another dime on it.
I am already in contact with a machine shop near my home where they do laser welding. Am waiting for their estimate.
JB weld is not happening for sure . :-)
-
As mentioned, every "105" 360/390 block that I have seen has the extra main webbing. The cracked block, assuming the outer water jacket is the only cracked area, is routinely repaired with the Lock N Stitch, pretty common stuff at machine shops. That said, if it was a 427 or 428 block, it may be worth the expense, but for a 390 block, personally I would look for another block. I understand that FEs are rather scarce in Europe, so that could be a factor. It may be a coincidence, but the few times that I have had a FE block that put oil into the cooling system via the passage inside the bolt, has been on a 105 block.
Yeah, I've seen this method. Am not really a fan. In case the laser welding turns out to be too expensive, I might consider it.
Looking for another block is really not that easy over here. We have a fraction of the amount of cars/trucks over here that you guys have. And what is here, usually was an enthusiasts vehicle from the day it touched European soil, means they're better taken care of, not lightly discarded. Virtually zero examples can be found in the few wrecking yards we have left over here.
I looked for a substitude block for 3 months and found only 3 offers:
1x 600 miles away in Berlin for 1600€ (1500$), alledgedly standard bore diameter, pictures showed that it was dragged over a concrete floor on all its sides and on the main bolts
1x same distance, only 600€, but already 4,10" bore diameter, I would have had to buy new pistons/rings
1x the one I bought. Cost me 1100€ and is cracked. Probably would have been cheaper if I had spotted the crack on the spot.
I'm willing to pay up to 500€ for the laser welding. If it is more, I'll probably take the bullet and keep looking for another block. Or consider the stitching method (which my machine shop guy also recommended)