FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: Stangman on October 06, 2023, 10:28:58 PM
-
So I have a Griffin crossflow 2 row 1 1/4 inch tubes aluminum radiator and Jegs dual 11 inch fans with the shroud assembly. For the most part on a normal day let’s say 80-85 degrees and not humid car runs 185-192. Now the days that it’s 85 and up and humid ( you know the days that when your driving and stick your hand out the window and the wind is hot) the car will creep up to 200 and if I was to let it I’m sure it would go higher so days like that I don’t even drive the car in case I get stuck in traffic I mean I am in New York there’s traffic a lot. So Jay talks about the radiator that’s in his Shelby that keeps his Cammer cool so I was going to get it with the Spal dual 12 inch fans. So they just came out with the same radiator that is now a triple pass system. So in theory the water is staying in the radiator longer so the fans should suck out more heat right or do you think it BS. Has anybody had a dual or triple pass radiator and does it work better.
-
I can't answer the question with experience with that radiator, but there can be diminishing returns as you limit airflow by more resistance too, especially at idle.
My opinion is you don't have a radiator issue, you have a minor fan issue. I got away from electric fans on a Mustang due to real estate and the lack of ability to put 2 big real fans on there. The SPALs are certainly nicer than most, but remember it's all about CFM passing all the way from the front of the radiator, then out of the bottom of the car. A Mustang has to not only suck it's way in, but push it's way out and there is a lot of trapped air that keeps the engine compartment hot due to big shock towers.
If the Spals flow significantly more, it'll help
If you were overheating under load or on the road I'd chase a radiator, but on a good engine, almost always, idle heat is due to airflow
-
I think it's the fans. I'm doing a test right now.
During our high level FE talk Rory explained his cooling.
I explained to him how mine works. It doesn't.
Driving to the show with the engine running for about 45 minutes it was about 160*. The air was cool and damp. Normal.
I have to block air flow to get the temp to rise on a cold morning.
Driving at speed my rad works fine. Even going across the Cobequid Passin towing the trailer during the hot part of the day, 195*. Slow down and get in traffic it will start to climb. When it gets to 210* I start thinking about my next move out of traffic.
I have a stock 428 brass copper rad that I've been using for 30 years. I like the brass top. I don't think I need a bigger rad.
I need more air flow.
I had a 16" electric fan. I have taken that off now. I bought two cheap amazon 12" Spal look a like fans. 1750 cfm each.
I also have a 428 clutch fan 19 1/2".
I'm going to try the 12" electrics first.
$59 for two fans, free shipping. Worth it? We will see. They come on Tuesday.
(https://i.postimg.cc/kGRyzJ8V/IMG-20231003-080011692.jpg)
-
Clutch fan, hands down.
I've added: keep in mind Ford's really big.heavy cars (Lincolns, Galaxies, Thunderbirds) and fast one like Mustangs, Cougars, etc. all had factory clutch fans. All could idle in heavy traffic for hours if need be and never overheat.
-
+1^^^
-
Well one thing I can say is even if it’s not real hot when I’m driving on parkway it runs up at the 192-195. I think it’s because of my 3.70s with a short 26 inch tire. 50 miles an hour is 2500 rpm. I know it’s not a lot but I don’t like to go much higher than that it just sounds loud in car. It seems like as soon as I get off parkway it goes back down to about 188-192. Now I never really worried to much but I just got a new gauge that reads easier my other one the gauge increments were small and close together so I guess when it was close to 190 I was fine. Maybe I’m just chasing my tail but there are times that it runs hotter and I want to just not have to worry about it. There has been a crossflow in there since 1969 and the opening for the radiator has been opened up so no way to mount a stock radiator to use clutch fan. Not sure if I could get a shroud for crossflow to line up with stock fan assembly.
Another thing is I do have a electric fuel pump (in tank) and between the fans and that my alternator is I think a 55 amp my rebuilder says it’s pumped up to around 70 the gauge does go down when fans come on. Add the headlights at night and maybe my fans aren’t spinning fast enough. A one wire 100 or 130 amp is happening over the winter.
One thing is it’s never overheated never puked out of the radiator but I want to over cool it so I don’t have to worry.
-
mine was overheating at speed but cooled as soon as you slow down or stop-the bottom rad hose was sucking shut when i give it gas and opens back up at idle.i pulled over and raised the hood and it looked fine,then i reached over and revved up the carb and i saw the bottom hose moving.it was sucking shut every time i gave it gas.i put a spring in my bottom hose and it runs cool now.
-
In my case the hose is 2 piece with metal in the middle it can’t collapse the hoses are only 6 inches per side.
-
mine was overheating at speed but cooled as soon as you slow down or stop-the bottom rad hose was sucking shut when i give it gas and opens back up at idle.i pulled over and raised the hood and it looked fine,then i reached over and revved up the carb and i saw the bottom hose moving.it was sucking shut every time i gave it gas.i put a spring in my bottom hose and it runs cool now.
Yeah, I forgot the collapsed hose deal, likely by others here too. Old, spongy hoses can do that. I do remember long ago most lowers did come from the parts stores with a coiled spring installed. Don't know if current suppliers for older car lowers still do this.
Btw, I am a big fan (no pun intended) of electric fans as virtually all modern cars have them, and for many years too. But, I've read of too many issues owners of older cars, most pre-EFI, have had with adding-in aftermarket SPAL type fans. Not sure why (too little cfm?).
-
Well one thing I can say is even if it’s not real hot when I’m driving on parkway it runs up at the 192-195. I think it’s because of my 3.70s with a short 26 inch tire. 50 miles an hour is 2500 rpm. I know it’s not a lot but I don’t like to go much higher than that it just sounds loud in car. It seems like as soon as I get off parkway it goes back down to about 188-192. Now I never really worried to much but I just got a new gauge that reads easier my other one the gauge increments were small and close together so I guess when it was close to 190 I was fine. Maybe I’m just chasing my tail but there are times that it runs hotter and I want to just not have to worry about it. There has been a crossflow in there since 1969 and the opening for the radiator has been opened up so no way to mount a stock radiator to use clutch fan. Not sure if I could get a shroud for crossflow to line up with stock fan assembly.
Another thing is I do have a electric fuel pump (in tank) and between the fans and that my alternator is I think a 55 amp my rebuilder says it’s pumped up to around 70 the gauge does go down when fans come on. Add the headlights at night and maybe my fans aren’t spinning fast enough. A one wire 100 or 130 amp is happening over the winter.
One thing is it’s never overheated never puked out of the radiator but I want to over cool it so I don’t have to worry.
Oophs! Missed thhis part about alternator output vs. your electrically operated stuff. You definitely need a higher output alternator!
-
A better alternator is going to be a step in the right direction if there is a significant voltage drop under normal driving conditions / lower RPM cruise. I know I have contemplated the look of my Cougar with the hood hinges adjusted so that the rear portion is open allowing air to escape out the top/cowl. Could be just the tweak you need to get that heat out of the engine bay. I have been itching to log under-hood temperature before and after such a "mod". Anyone seen any legit data on this?
-
I was tasked with testing about every plastic molded fan on the market, back about 17 years ago, (now). The best most efficient fan was the Ford Taurus fan used from introduction on up to I believe 2004. Designed by a company in Massachusetts, these guys knew their stuff. Lots of hot rodders used them. The next best were Spal, efficient and compact. There have been lots of knockoff fans but none matched the performance of the Spal. The short chord, narrow blades, have too really be designed for the application, too work properly. They may quote 1750 cfm, but that is at zero back pressure. When you put a radiator, in there, the fans will usually "stall" , and provide insufficient airflow, for cooling. That was the real reason the Taurus fan worked in so many applications, the blades were a longer chord length ( wider ), and the curve of the blade kept it out of "stall" over a wider range. Many of the knock off fans would go into stall when combined with a 2 or 3 row radiator, with a moderate finish count of 15 fins per inch, basically doing very little air movement. The reason a steel clutch fan, or flexible steel fan, works is that wide long blade chord length, which provides higher pressure, to work with multi row radiators.
-
I have never ran a electric fan as I prefer mechanical stuff..My 68 has a 427 in it and i run a stock clutch fan.I have the stock rad as well.Car has never got hotter than 200 and that was sitting in a line up to a car show...The key to the whole system is the shroud and the depth of your fan in the shroud. To deep or to shallow and you kill the purpose of the shroud.....JMO...Cory
-
A lot of good stuff for me to get working on. Between a better alternator and maybe a better fan I might be a little better. It’s not like I’m overheating I just want to be able to drive my car whenever I want. If I can get 10 degrees and a little more consistency in traffic that’s all I’m looking for. I would also like to get a hood with a scoop to let some of that heat out.
-
Running at speed.
RPM 2700 at 107 KPH or 66 MPH Speed limit 100 KPH ::)
Oil 63 psi
temp 180*
Volts 13.5
Runs all day like this on the highway.
I'm also adding a air fuel ratio gauge.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/EJqhDJXqvuo
-
Running at speed.
RPM 2700 at 107 KPH or 66 MPH Speed limit 100 KPH ::)
Oil 63 psi
temp 180*
Volts 13.5
Runs all day like this on the highway.
I'm also adding a air fuel ratio gauge.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/
What gears and size tire. I would assume 3.50 and a 28 inch tire.
-
Running at speed.
RPM 2700 at 107 KPH or 66 MPH Speed limit 100 KPH ::)
Oil 63 psi
temp 180*
Volts 13.5
Runs all day like this on the highway.
I'm also adding a air fuel ratio gauge.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/
What gears and size tire. I would assume 3.50 and a 28 inch tire.
Yes. 3.50 and 28 inch tire.
-
A lot of good stuff for me to get working on. Between a better alternator and maybe a better fan I might be a little better. It’s not like I’m overheating I just want to be able to drive my car whenever I want. If I can get 10 degrees and a little more consistency in traffic that’s all I’m looking for. I would also like to get a hood with a scoop to let some of that heat out.
Well, having run scoop hooded cars, they really don't let heat escape except at a dead stop. What was mentioned here was adding a washer or two to the rear hinge hood side bolts, allowing the hood to stick up a tad at the rear edge. That does work at idle and underway to let heat escape if one can live with the hood sticking up a tad.
-
Amazon, they came early again.
The fans look great. I could not find any markings on the fans other than the stickers.
They do not have made in china on them so I'm happy.
I tested them and they both work and seem to pull a lot of air.
I will make up a bracket using my available junk.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VfmbjNXN/IMG-20231008-155957490.jpg)
-
Well, having run scoop hooded cars, they really don't let heat escape except at a dead stop. What was mentioned here was adding a washer or two to the rear hinge hood side bolts, allowing the hood to stick up a tad at the rear edge. That does work at idle and underway to let heat escape if one can live with the hood sticking up a tad.
Thanks for this feedback. Exactly what I was getting at.
-
To put the Air Fuel Gauge in I had to take the pipes off.
So I started it without the pipes. ::)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbgTW8R-s08
I made some aluminum gaskets for the collectors and got the pipes back in with the O2 sensor installed.
Fans next.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MpY7WYH9/IMG-20231011-102658837.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/MHMqb9RY/IMG-20231011-110815762.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/M6rcRNJV/IMG-20231011-130250129.jpg)
-
Just a couple of random thoughts:
As large a rigid stock type fan as you can fit with a shroud will cool best. A clutch will not make it cool better but will help with horsepower loss of the rigid fan.
The fans shown a couple of posts above are fine if they work good enough for your application.
A straight blade electric fan will always pull more air than a curved blade electric fan at the same size. The curved blade fans only exist because they are quieter.
A paddle blade electric fan pulls even more air but is a lot noisier.
I always try to use the truck style 7" dual belt crank pulley with a 5" dual belt water pump pulley.
I like the Powermaster 477491 Ford G3 1 wire alternator. I run the small dual belt pulley. I run a 2ga charge wire directly to the plus side of the battery and NOT to the starter solenoid. You will need dual v belts with a 3G or the belts will squeal.
There's a lot of things that can help with cooling. Vacuum advance helps, but I personally don't use it. Make sure timing is adjusted properly. Fuel mixture too.
-
I have the fans hanging in place now.
I have them as close to the fins as possible with out them touching the fins.
Wiring next.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Cx4Bd07W/IMG-20231012-153619997.jpg)
-
That looks alot like the stock radiator in my '66 Galaxie. I was happy with a fan Ford has for the newer Mustangs as shown here (http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=11627.msg128408#msg128408). A bit pricy but a very nice unit that needed very little work to fit the radiator.
-
Joe, this is the setup we run on the Cougar and on the 68 Mustang drag car. They put out a ton of air. I believe you can order this same setup without the fan relay kit, but the relay kit makes it easy to wire. On the cougar I relocated the relay to the bottom side of the shroud and you can't see it at all.
With both fans running this setup will sweep my barn floor for me.
https://www.stang-aholics.com/i-30750833-67-70-mustang-dual-electric-fans-with-shroud-and-wiring-for-24-inch-radiator.html
(https://i.postimg.cc/qvh5t45N/IMG-3429.jpg) (https://postimages.org/) (https://i.postimg.cc/8z2nM92t/IMG-3446.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
-
I don’t know how to put pics in but those are the fans that I have now Mike.. They work good just looking for a smidge more. Gonna go to the 12 inch setup. The more I think about it my charging system could be the culprit. I think the fans slow up on longer rides. Sometimes after a long ride with fans on and I put on blinker my volt gauge rocks back and forth with the blinker. The car also doesn’t run as crisp. Yeah this winter gonna really go over the whole car. Everything’s been the same since it’s been together since 2013. What started this thread was the triple pass radiator that I saw, I guess nobody has gone down that rabbit hole so I will stick with a regular radiator.
-
When I put those on the Cougar I did a 150A alternator at the same time. A quick alternator change can't hurt...
-
Yes the alternator will definetly be happening.
-
Joe, this is the setup we run on the Cougar and on the 68 Mustang drag car. They put out a ton of air. I believe you can order this same setup without the fan relay kit, but the relay kit makes it easy to wire. On the cougar I relocated the relay to the bottom side of the shroud and you can't see it at all.
With both fans running this setup will sweep my barn floor for me.
https://www.stang-aholics.com/i-30750833-67-70-mustang-dual-electric-fans-with-shroud-and-wiring-for-24-inch-radiator.html
(https://i.postimg.cc/qvh5t45N/IMG-3429.jpg) (https://postimages.org/) (https://i.postimg.cc/8z2nM92t/IMG-3446.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Do you drive the car over long distance? Like burn a full tank during the afternoon run and then pull off the highway and sit in a line of traffic? What kind of performance does it give?
-
I don’t know how to put pics in but those are the fans that I have now Mike.. They work good just looking for a smidge more. Gonna go to the 12 inch setup. The more I think about it my charging system could be the culprit. I think the fans slow up on longer rides. Sometimes after a long ride with fans on and I put on blinker my volt gauge rocks back and forth with the blinker. The car also doesn’t run as crisp. Yeah this winter gonna really go over the whole car. Everything’s been the same since it’s been together since 2013. What started this thread was the triple pass radiator that I saw, I guess nobody has gone down that rabbit hole so I will stick with a regular radiator.
A larger rad will allow you to carry more coolant. That's always a plus.
It could the voltage regulator. They go blinky sometimes.
Which water pump and pulley do you use?
I use a Edelbrock pump and small diameter CVF pulley. I think that helps my car.
-
Howie I use the same CVF aluminum pulley I think you told me to get that years ago and like I said for the most part my car runs at a normal temperature but there are days that are nice out that I would like to take my car out and don’t because if I get caught in traffic it will go up to temps I don’t like to see. How’s your fan setups coming out.
-
Do you drive the car over long distance? Like burn a full tank during the afternoon run and then pull off the highway and sit in a line of traffic? What kind of performance does it give?
I've driven it on cruise night which is basically a standstill of old cars in August. After installing the fan setup I haven't had trouble with it getting above 180 or so (it has a 160 stat). Prior to this it had a factory 7 blade fan with a shroud and it wouldn't keep up. If you stopped moving the temp would climb and never slow down.
-
Howie I use the same CVF aluminum pulley I think you told me to get that years ago and like I said for the most part my car runs at a normal temperature but there are days that are nice out that I would like to take my car out and don’t because if I get caught in traffic it will go up to temps I don’t like to see. How’s your fan setups coming out.
My goal is for extreme cooling on the cheap. ;D
So I put the $59 fans in. My relay starts both fans no problem.
I think the larger surface area that I'm now covering will help.
The real test will be to get it hot and drive into some traffic in town.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/cdASdGr3i0E