67 Fairlane GTA 390 cruiser

[amdscooter]

Howdy everyone! Many regulars are probably already are familiar with me haunting the technical forum for some time now with questions bout my 67 Fairlane GTA 390FE. Decided it's a good time to start a project thread as I'm well beyond just header questions.



Basic specs of my Fairlane:
390 GT 14 bolt heads C7AE-A
C6 column shift
Stock 9" rear with what I believe to be the factory 3.00 gears.
Factory AC
Power steering
Power Brakes


Some more background in my initial thread here: http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=578.0.

390 FE details:
Heads fresh stock with Viton seals and hardened exhaust seats.
Short block .030 stock with oil mods, CJ oil filter adapter, Melling HV pump, chrome moly pump drive shaft, Comp 268H Cam(Intake and exhaust Duration @ .050" Lift:218, Valve Lift: 0.494, Lobe Lift:0.286) and Ford Racing Double Roller timing chain.
Springs, lifters, keepers, etc. from Comp K33-224-3 cam kit.
Edelbrock Streetmaster intake.
FPA headers.
2.5" pipes with Magnaflow mufflers.
Holley 4160c 600cfm carb. 
Stock distributor with Pextronix Flamethrower2 module and coil.



Here is the last video I uploaded for another member:
http://youtu.be/olhXxOS43lw

The bare tailpipes in that video are due to the muffler shop owner coming up one short on his order for my tailpipes. I was anxious to put the tune on the new motor so I took the car w/o them and will have them installed when I get back on the street. Since that video I've been sidelined by a leaking power steering pressure hose. Going to see if there is a better fitted replacement available next week. If not I'll order what I put on last time around from Autokrafters and "make it work" again until I find or make a better replacement. I also ditched the fan clutch for a flex fan due to clearance issues to the radiator. Been "fun" getting into my FE and learning lots as I go. A few questions to add to the ongoing list:

Ignition: Think I've got a decent handle on the total mechanical advance for the timing with 10 degrees initial and 36 degrees total mechanical advance.

1) With my setup should I use more initial advance if I can find a reasonable way to keep the total to 36?
2) What kind of spark gap would people recommend? I'm currently running the stock spec at .035. 
3) Timed vaccum port on the carburetor or full manifold as a source?

Carburetor: The street test runs I was able to do before the power steering line went to pot showed lacking performance off the line. Before my 390 was pulled I was able to get the stock 14" tire spinning from a stop pretty easily. I've checked the linkage and it "appears" to be opening the carb completely. Need to get my buddy over here to put his foot on the pedal to ensure it's pulling the linkage the same amount as I'm able to move from the engine compartment though.

1) Is the Holley 4160c 0-80457s 600cfm still appropriate or adequate for my 390 with new adds? Holley claims the carb is good for a v6 or small v8. Full specs on the carb here: http://www.holley.com/data/Products/Technical/199R7948-5rev5.pdf Basic specs: http://www.holley.com/0-80457S.asp

Thanks!

[jayb]

Good looking car.  I need one of those things...

I would experiment with running the initial timing up as high as 16, and the total advance as high as 40, to see if that helps your off idle acceleration issue.  I gap all my plugs at .035", no matter how much horsepower the engine has, so I think you are good there.  And I'd stick with the timed vacuum port for distributor vacuum.

I think you have a carb problem as the primary issue; that cam shouldn't kill low end torque so I don't think its the converter.  However, your car could benefit from a higher stall converter, so you might consider that at some point.  You can't check for full throttle just in the engine compartment; you have to press the pedal down while you are in the car.  Take your cell phone video camera, turn it on and put it on top of the carb, and then jump in the car and go to WOT a couple of times.  The cell phone camera should tell you what you need to know.

If your throttle blades are opening all the way, or even most of the way, you will need to do some carb tuning.  I'm not familar with that particular carb, but I've had to make modifications on a lot of single four vacuum secondary carb setups, where the carb just couldn't deliver the kind of accelerator pump shot the engine was needing when you slam the throttle open.  You can play with squirter size and pump cams, and even put on a larger accelerator pump to solve this problem, or you could go to a 650 or 700 double pumper Holley to solve the problem.

One thing that would tell you for sure is if you put a wideband O2 sensor setup on the car.  Innovate Motorsports makes a pretty good one, and it allows you to log data from the O2 sensor and figure out when you are going rich or lean.  It will allow you to debug a problem like this, and also save you some money in gas mileage if you can tune the carb to run at the correct A/F ratio while you are going down the road.  In your case, if you are stumbling on acceleration, I'll bet you would see the A/F curve give a lean spike right when you hit the throttle...

[amdscooter]

^^^ Thanks for the compliments and advise jay.

I am on the "timed" port already so thanks for the confirmation there. On the timing side I have a 18L~13L reluctor in the distributor set on the 13L side. So I can go up to 14 degrees initial advance and stay within that 40 degree total advance budget. Would you say 40 degrees total advance is about the maximum I should probably run?

On the carburetor side I'll definitely look into one of those Innovate Motorsports wideband O2 sensors. I'm pretty sure the blades are opening at least 90% so carb tuning is a likely suspect. I had planned on upgrading to a larger (700~750cfm) pretty quickly anyway, could you toss out a few part numbers of what I should be looking for in a suitable upgrade?   

[machoneman]

Nice car indeed!

Is the carb brand new or was it run on the old engine? Often swapping on a known good carb even for an around-the-block run is helpful in diagnosing any issues...such as is it solely the carb or not. If the plugs look good and the car runs strong from near highway speeds (40 to 70) I'd fool with your accel pump shot settings and maybe swap on a different pump cam (what color is the pump cam btw? Is the screw in the #1 or #2 hole?).  More here:

http://www.holley.com/data/Products/Technical/R7849-2.pdf

[amdscooter]

Nice car indeed!

Is the carb brand new or was it run on the old engine? Often swapping on a known good carb even for an around-the-block run is helpful in diagnosing any issues...such as it it solely the carb or not. If the plugs look good and the car runs strong from near highway speeds (40 to 70) I'd fool with your accel pump shot settings and maybe swap on a different pump cam (what color is the pump cam btw? Is the screw in the #1 or #2 hole?).  More here:

http://www.holley.com/data/Products/Technical/R7849-2.pdf

Thanks! The carb is not new.. but newish. Bought it January of 2011 and I did run it on the engine before the recent rebuild. My good friend who did the head work for me is looking for a carb I can use for troubleshooting purposes. The car seemed to run fine at highway speeds for the three miles or so I was able to run it. The plugs look normal. I'll have a look at the pump cam tomorrow and report back as to it's current settings.

-scott

[bartlett]

a good 2" spacer helps lowend torque alot ..

and I second the lm2 wide band by innovative .. I love mine and it looks cool to boot...

Ive always had to lean out stock holley carbs on the primary side. and I also changed to a light purple spring to get the secondarys active sooner .....

[drdano]

and I second the lm2 wide band by innovative ..

X3.  I'd be totally lost without mine on my 428.  It's been a huge confidence booster to *know* what is happening in the motor as changes to the carb/timing are made.  Worth every penny, wish I bought one 5 years ago.

[bartlett]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Innovate-Wideband-Air-Fuel-Ratio-LC-1-Wideband-Controller-Kit-Red-DB-Gauge-3796-/110978510236?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item19d6d5ad9c&vxp=mtr

[jayb]

That one doesn't include any datalogging capabilities, as far as I can see.  You really want the datalogging because you can't be watching that gauge all the time; I'd suggest a different product, like this one:

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/lm2.php

[amdscooter]

^^^ Thanks for the links guys. Looks like they both let you log to a laptop with a USB cable and software. If I can save a few bucks by not having to purchase the readout paddle I'm going that route. I have a few laptops here that are excellent candidates for carburetor tuning ride alongs. 

[bartlett]

I have a lm-2 and the one on the car .... No need to have any download hooopla.  you can watch the gauge pretty easy and see whats going on.  If you cant just have a buddy ride along and watch it for ya.  I find it easy to watch and mine is down by the shifter. The red led lite is realy clear .

[thatdarncat]

I just want to verify, is the Holley carb you have list #8007 ? That's what the link to the instruction sheet is you posted. If that's correct that carb is only a 390 cfm which is WAY too small for your car. Personally I like the good old #1850 ( with any dash number ) for an aftermarket choice and if you're looking for about 600 cfm the original Ford Holley's for any of the 390 GT motors are hard to beat and not too expensive as a used part. Please verify for us what the LIST # is of the carb you're using. Check this link:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-0-8007

[jayb]

I have a lm-2 and the one on the car .... No need to have any download hooopla.  you can watch the gauge pretty easy and see whats going on.

Well, maybe if your car is slow...

[amdscooter]

I just want to verify, is the Holley carb you have list #8007 ? That's what the link to the instruction sheet is you posted. If that's correct that carb is only a 390 cfm which is WAY too small for your car. Personally I like the good old #1850 ( with any dash number ) for an aftermarket choice and if you're looking for about 600 cfm the original Ford Holley's for any of the 390 GT motors are hard to beat and not too expensive as a used part. Please verify for us what the LIST # is of the carb you're using. Check this link:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-0-8007

Sorry bout that, looks like I posted the wrong link. I'll update the first post in a sec. Mine is the 4160c  0-80457s. It is a 600cfm, specs found here: http://www.holley.com/0-80457S.asp PDF manual here: http://www.holley.com/data/Products/Technical/199R7948-5rev5.pdf Thanks for catching my error. 

[thatdarncat]

Well, that's a big relief on the size of the carb lol. Next question - did the carb come with the car or did you purchase it recently? Reason I ask is looking at the specs in the intruction sheet it shows a "plain" secondary spring, which is in about the middle range of stiffness, but looking in a older Holley catalog I have it shows that carb coming with a "black" spring which is the stiffest. I would verify which spring it has. With a "black" one I'd guess you'd be barely opening the secondaries, if at all. Either that or just follow Jay's advice and work out a way to check for secondary opening under driving conditions. Oh, and by the way, that's one sweet Fairlane.