Author Topic: AUTOLITE INLINE 4V CARB  (Read 2293 times)

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Dr Mabuse

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AUTOLITE INLINE 4V CARB
« on: January 16, 2025, 12:18:09 PM »
The Autolite inline 4V carb may have had outstanding induction distribution, but it was a failure. As I recall, the "problem" was fuel management when cornering or accelerating. Barry Grant tried to market a design similar to the Autolite, but it too failed.

Tom Vaught worked for Holley until 1978, and wrote about it in this link:
https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=819888
--------


Dr Mabuse

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Re: AUTOLITE INLINE 4V CARB
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2025, 12:33:41 PM »
From post #39 (in the link)
-------------------

"Agree, But the Beautiful RA-V type heads that Don has produced were originally designed for the Ford 427 engine.
Pontiac copied the design as many, many people know.

So there is a bit more to it vs a SD Truck Hood Scoop installed on some Pontiac hoods, would you not think?
But your comment is a bit funny to read though, thanks for the levity.

Tom V."

jayb

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Re: AUTOLITE INLINE 4V CARB
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2025, 05:58:34 PM »
Tom Vaught is a great guy, and a true hard core performance engineer.  He has helped me with supercharging and turbocharging applications, and I still have a couple of T80 turbos with wastegates that I got from him, for a cammer project.  I haven't used them, and he has asked to buy them back LOL!

I had two of the 1425 cfm Autolite inline carbs on my 66 Cyclone back in the 1980s.  The engine was a stroked 460 with an offset ground crank, aluminum rods, and 429 CJ heads, so the big round ports looked like a good match for those carbs.  I had built an individual runner intake sized to fit those carbs, and also put some velocity stacks on top.  They looked mean as hell, but I couldn't get them to work off the line; no matter what I did the pump shot wasn't big enough and the car would bog terribly when you mashed the throttle.  Then it would take off like a rocket.  Being in my 20s and not all that experienced, I really didn't know how to address the problem, and of course the carbs were worked over before I got them, so who knows what the issues could have been.  But it was pretty hard to beat them for cool factor...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

kcoffield

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Re: AUTOLITE INLINE 4V CARB
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2025, 09:00:13 AM »
The Autolite inline 4V carb may have had outstanding induction distribution, but it was a failure. As I recall, the "problem" was fuel management when cornering or accelerating. Barry Grant tried to market a design similar to the Autolite, but it too failed.--------

Failure? I guess so because they weren't a commercial success, but more like still born IMO. They were being introduced when Ford was exiting racing after Henry got wire brushed by Congress. The sanctioning bodies saw fit to them never finding a place in life and the combination rendered them into obscurity and were never developed beyond their initial introduction.

The much talked about fuel issue was no different than what Holley guys would call side hung floats and the solutions similar.

As far as Jay's experience and regarding shot size, a pair of Inlines has 8 pumps and more capacity than any single Holley. Shot size is/was adjustable with arm stroke, and bigger shooters and/or stronger springs will deliver the shot sooner over a shorter duration. It's possible that launch caused the front main jets in each well to become uncovered. Not sure pure carbureted IR is the drag racing solution, and some inter runner communication can help in many regards.

At the end of the day, they're novel and can be tuned to run pretty well but there's no magic in an Inline carb......they're just an ejector that regulates air/fuel like most any other carb. For those racing and looking for HP, because of their value, I used to advise people there were better places to invest $ for HP, but as the prices of Holley Carbs climb.....? But I think they are best for period correct build on fun street cars.

I've added some systems to my website and will be adding more in the near future. The FE system based on Jay's adapter is available and I also have and IR version. I also have carbs available, and you can pick and choose from menu pricing up to a turnkey system.

https://inlinecarb.com/parts--systems-for-sale.html

Best,
Kelly

« Last Edit: January 17, 2025, 09:03:39 AM by kcoffield »

MeanGene

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Re: AUTOLITE INLINE 4V CARB
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2025, 10:15:09 AM »
Man, now I need to dig out my old HotRod with the inline on the cover lol. IIRC a lot of the fuss was that they were made up from existing Autolite carb parts wrapped up in new castings. I got my paws on a couple, Cross-Boss stuff, back when Cantrell was still around in the 70's (might have been part of the truckload of goodies they got at the Holman Moody sale) but that was a long time ago. Was a cool design, but stillborn without much development time out in the world

Rory428

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Re: AUTOLITE INLINE 4V CARB
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2025, 10:53:21 AM »
To me, the Autolite inline, as well as the Kendig/Predator, and some other "new thinking" designs at the time, like the 4 2 barrel "Man A Fre" setup, were brought out to "build a better mouse trap", but after all these years, the conventional Holley carb is pretty tough to beat. We have a local fella in his early 80s, that is still drag racing the same 31 Model A that he has had since 1967, with a SB Chevy. He still has the same Man A Fre that he bought new, similar to the Man A Fre on the Milner Coupe in American Graffiti. He used it years ago, but when he built the current engine, he dynoed the new engine, with both his Brodix single 4 barrel single plane intake and Holley 750, and the old Man A Fre, and the Man A Fre, with it`s 4 Rochester 2GC 2 barrel carbs, was down by just over 100 HP. In the 80s, I tried a Predator on my 70 428 4 speed 70 Mach 1, that ran mid 12s back then, and compared to the Holley 780 Vacuum secondary, I did get the Predator to run almost as quick at the dragstrip, but didn`t much car for it`s part throttle response and drivability. I have seen, but never used an Autolite Inline 4 barrel, or seen one apart, but have no idea if all 4 throttle plates were connected, so they all opened together, or were staged, but with a separate accelerator pump for each bore, have to think that they would be pretty thirsty. I imagine that the idea behind the inline was for use with a plenumless, individual runner intake manifold, for use with 2 carbs, so a barrel for each cylinder, kinda like a 4 Weber setup, and used modified style intake to use a single inline. Wonder if each barrel had it`s own float chamber and float, it`s own idle circuit, and vacuum style of part throttle enrichment (think power valve). Very interesting experiment, and would certainly look cool hanging on your wall, but between trying to make it work well, and getting replacement gaskets and parts, probably best left to look at, on display.
1978 Fairmont,FE 427 with 428 crank, 4 speed Jerico best of 9.972@132.54MPH 1.29 60 foot
1985 Mustang HB 331 SB Ford, 4 speed Jerico, best of 10.29@128 MPH 1.40 60 foot.
1974 F350 race car hauler 390 NP435 4 speed
1959 Ford Meteor 2 dr sedan. 428 Cobra Jet, 4 speed Toploader. 12.54@ 108 MPH

thatdarncat

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Re: AUTOLITE INLINE 4V CARB
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2025, 12:13:24 PM »
Ford had a handy booklet available that, along with the description, had part numbers, etc. I think I got mine from official Ford answer man John Vermeersch years ago. There’s an Inline Autolite website too, and if I remember he has some parts for sale.

Kevin Rolph

1967 Cougar Drag Car ( under constuction )
1966 7 litre Galaxie
1966 Country Squire 390
1966 Cyclone GT 390
1968 Torino GT 390
1972 Gran Torino wagon
1978 Lincoln Mk V

thatdarncat

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Re: AUTOLITE INLINE 4V CARB
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2025, 12:24:10 PM »
Man, now I need to dig out my old HotRod with the inline on the cover lol. IIRC a lot of the fuss was that they were made up from existing Autolite carb parts wrapped up in new castings. I got my paws on a couple, Cross-Boss stuff, back when Cantrell was still around in the 70's (might have been part of the truckload of goodies they got at the Holman Moody sale) but that was a long time ago. Was a cool design, but stillborn without much development time out in the world

Kevin Rolph

1967 Cougar Drag Car ( under constuction )
1966 7 litre Galaxie
1966 Country Squire 390
1966 Cyclone GT 390
1968 Torino GT 390
1972 Gran Torino wagon
1978 Lincoln Mk V

MeanGene

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Re: AUTOLITE INLINE 4V CARB
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2025, 01:13:50 PM »
Man, now I need to dig out my old HotRod with the inline on the cover lol. IIRC a lot of the fuss was that they were made up from existing Autolite carb parts wrapped up in new castings. I got my paws on a couple, Cross-Boss stuff, back when Cantrell was still around in the 70's (might have been part of the truckload of goodies they got at the Holman Moody sale) but that was a long time ago. Was a cool design, but stillborn without much development time out in the world



Yep, that one. Actually I think I have a couple, the one I've had since I was a kid, and one I found at a swap

kcoffield

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Re: AUTOLITE INLINE 4V CARB
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2025, 09:06:03 PM »
...... I have seen, but never used an Autolite Inline 4 barrel, or seen one apart, but have no idea if all 4 throttle plates were connected, so they all opened together, or were staged, but with a separate accelerator pump for each bore, have to think that they would be pretty thirsty. I imagine that the idea behind the inline was for use with a plenumless, individual runner intake manifold, for use with 2 carbs, so a barrel for each cylinder, kinda like a 4 Weber setup, and used modified style intake to use a single inline. Wonder if each barrel had it`s own float chamber and float, it`s own idle circuit, and vacuum style of part throttle enrichment (think power valve). Very interesting experiment, and would certainly look cool hanging on your wall, but between trying to make it work well, and getting replacement gaskets and parts, probably best left to look at, on display.

All throttle plates are connected and are not progressive though the throttle linkage has a somewhat progressive linkage action. The D0ZX9510A 875 cfm carb was jetted as delivered to be run on a common plenum intake (ala CrossBoss) and the D0ZX9510B "1425cfm" carb was jetted to be an IR carb. The B-carb had a 2.25" throttle plate (in fact, it was sourced from the QuadraJet spread bore secondary) so about the same a 58mm IDA Weber.

Each pair of cylinders shared a float, metering valve, and main well but each cylinder had its own dedicated accelerator pump and metering circuits including idle.

There's an old internet myth that is repeated in the link in the first post of this thread, stating that the early carbs didn't have an idle circuit but that is not true. They all had the same circuits including idle circuits.....even the prototype dyno/lab mules......I know because I own 3 of the original 4 mules. -Still looking for the fourth.

I offer all gaskets and rebuild parts, and a host of others too, so that's not a problem.

Best,
Kelly
« Last Edit: January 17, 2025, 09:34:28 PM by kcoffield »

Dr Mabuse

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Re: AUTOLITE INLINE 4V CARB
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2025, 12:25:09 AM »
How do Webers overcome the "problems" of the Autolite inline 4V, and why didn't Ford figure it out right from the start, with their (otherwise) thoughtful, innovative, and excellent design?

Was it simply a case of running fine on a dyno, but not working under the G-forces of racing?
------------


kcoffield

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Re: AUTOLITE INLINE 4V CARB
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2025, 11:09:30 AM »
How do Webers overcome the "problems" of the Autolite inline 4V, and why didn't Ford figure it out right from the start, with their (otherwise) thoughtful, innovative, and excellent design?

Was it simply a case of running fine on a dyno, but not working under the G-forces of racing?
------------

Maybe, but I think it was more a matter of development budget, timeline, and the need/desire to use existing production parts......why wouldn't they? IMO, the whole fuel starvation issue is akin to the no idle circuit internet myth.......when people bring this up, I always ask, have you actually experienced this or just read about it?

Take the whole "side hung floats are no good argument".....it's argued that it's because the float pivot motion is out of the line acceleration (forward and stopping). OK, so when you replace them with center hung floats, why doesn't the same problem still exist in lateral corning g forces? And it's not like the same issues didn't/doesn't exist in Holley carbs. The position of the float doesn't stop the fuel in the well from being displaced by acceleration and that is what needs to be controlled in respect to where the fuel is tapped by the metering circuits in either case.

......and how many different versions of Holley carbs are there? -Many, and many more list #s. There is one version of Inline. It's just available in two different sizes.

I guess all I'm trying to say is, nobody races a stock engine or Holley carb as it is taken out of the box without modification and tailoring to suit. Why should an Inline be any different?

I have good reason to believe <700 (combined) of both versions of Inline carbs were ever made, and all of those parts were made at the same time in the first two quarters of 1970. The first production carb shows up in July. The parts were built into carbs in lots with the last being February of 1972 and pushed out to the dealers. All of those carbs were the same except for minor cosmetic differences. By the time the first production carb was available, it was already unavailable to race teams because of the rules changes and homologation requirements which the sanctioning bodies were right to be skeptical of whether Ford had met those requirements given what I stated about production numbers.

So there was no development beyond that first production run of parts, at least none that saw the light of day. What would a Holley carb be if they had one (their first) version and production expression for all time? .....and I'm certainly not bashing Holley Carbs. All my cars are equipped with them.

-Just a little perspective.

Best,
Kelly
« Last Edit: January 18, 2025, 11:12:12 AM by kcoffield »

Dr Mabuse

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Re: AUTOLITE INLINE 4V CARB
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2025, 09:34:17 AM »
How do Webers overcome the "problems" of the Autolite inline 4V, and why didn't Ford figure it out right from the start, with their (otherwise) thoughtful, innovative, and excellent design?

Was it simply a case of running fine on a dyno, but not working under the G-forces of racing?
------------

Maybe, but I think it was more a matter of development budget, timeline, and the need/desire to use existing production parts....
-Just a little perspective.

Best,
Kelly

Thanks for your detailed perspective! Many questions remain. It seems that Ford/Autolite would have studied the Weber designs as a model, in an attempt to create and implement a competitive and improved model, only to be abandoned by Ford.

Likewise, Barry Grant's attempt also failed, possibly/only because of his company's bankruptcy. He reported outstanding early results, especially with the intake charge distribution.

Here we are, over 50 years later, and without an insider's perspective, we may never know the "inside" story, with modern fuel injection the industry standard.

frnkeore

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Re: AUTOLITE INLINE 4V CARB
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2025, 11:59:02 AM »
Has anyone tuned one of these carbs, since Jay did his?

It doesn't seem like it would that big of a problem, to get the bog out of it, to a well experienced carb guy. There are some very talented guy's out there.

It pretty much has to be in the transfer or emulsion circuit. I doubt that it would be lack of accelerator pump capacity, with 4 pumps, Holley's get along just fine with 2 pumps, per 4v. 

Jay, did you try different size squirters?
Frank

Barry_R

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Re: AUTOLITE INLINE 4V CARB
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2025, 01:44:37 PM »
I would agree that the issues attributed to the inline carbs were due to the "darn near prototype" situation. 
Most every part or vehicle sees continuous upgrades over time - especially in the first few iterations as real world experience accrues.
The development of the 427 SOHC is similar - any significant issues would have been resolved if it had truly gone into volume production.
Instead, both are subject to decades of hearsay and retold rumors from years long gone by.

FWIW - even modern-ish EFI systems are really touchy when used in IR applications