Author Topic: 482 SOHC "Saleen Cammer" update  (Read 5759 times)

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cobracammer

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Re: 482 SOHC "Saleen Cammer" update
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2021, 02:41:26 PM »
Noticed 1 drip under the car while its been in the garage.  The single drip seems to come from between the bell housing and the backing plate.  Doing a little snooping with a flashlight (as I said before, there is almost no room in this engine bay), it looked like the starter was a little shiny and oily.....  Hmmm

 Its definitely not the oil pan anymore, so the oil leak a few months ago seemed to be a few things.

 Since the oil pan is clean and dry all the way around, I started snooping a little further while I had it up on the lift.  The only thing I could see is that the passenger side valve cover gasket seemed wet and "shiny" toward the rear and bottom.  As this is a high as I can go, I would guess that there is some oil that gets out of the valve cover gasket toward the rear...  drips down somehow and gets on the starter, and then possibly runs down the bellhousing- making it look like it comes from inside?

Either way, it was time to replace the valve cover gasket.  You have to take the battery and the battery tray out in order to get to 2 of the bolts holding the valve cover....  starting there- It was a quick removal followed by a 2 hours cleaning session on the head mating surface and valve cover.  I wanted to make sure that its 100% free of any oil residue or anything for that matter which would inhibit the gasket seal.

The valve cover went into the sink for a scrub with soap and water, followed by alcohol rub down...  Until it was completely clean and dry.

Then I tried something new.  I put gasket maker on the cork gasket very thinly, then installed that on the valve cover iself.  Once it was all lined up, I put the valve cover and the gasket I just installed on it face down (clean side of the cork gasket) on a plastic sheet on the garage floor.  Then I put about 40 lbs of weight on the valve cover to ensure a good tight seal when curing. 

Tomorrow, once the gasket maker has dried and the cork gasket is permanently adhered, I will put gasket maker (another thin coating) on the heads mating surface and install the valve cover.  I read online that this is to try and reduce the amount the cork gasket moves around when you try to install it all at once.  It would seem that with RTV on both sides of the cork gasket, when you try to wrench it tight , can squish out of place (possibly).

My thought is that even if this is not true, It cant hurt anything to do it this way.

The valve cover
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

jayb

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Re: 482 SOHC "Saleen Cammer" update
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2021, 04:47:13 PM »
Those cork valve cover gaskets do like to seep somewhat in that corner.  Make sure you stay on top of keeping the bolts tight, because after a few heat cycles the cork gasket will shrink, leading to potential leakage.

I've gone to the SCE valve cover gaskets for the SOHC, which are much better.  They are only partially cork, there is also a layer of normal paper gasket material in there.  They don't shrink as much, and they seem to seal better, at least on my engines...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

cobracammer

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Re: 482 SOHC "Saleen Cammer" update
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2021, 08:59:17 AM »
Thanks Jay-  I will keep up on it.   ;D  I will do periodic checks every 2 or 3 drives for until they don't appear to be shrinking anymore.  The cork one on the drivers side has stayed dry with no leaks at all! 
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

machoneman

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Re: 482 SOHC "Saleen Cammer" update
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2021, 09:26:05 AM »
So, Jason, when do we get some time slips from a track? Ten second car? Best guess?
Bob Maag

cobracammer

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Re: 482 SOHC "Saleen Cammer" update
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2021, 05:51:31 PM »
LOL.  Well.... slips from the track may need to wait.  Finally took the car out for a few miles after warming it up and still have an oil leak.  Its better mind you, but still there.  No regrets on pulling the pan and valve cover as I truly believe the original oil leak was a few different oil leaks making 1 really bad looking leak.  Oil pan is sealed and is dry.  Valve cover gasket is still dry, but as Jay said....  I will keep an eye on it and slightly tighten the bolts if any gasket shrinkage is detected....

This last leak is coming from the back of the block somewhere....  Still dripping down behind the backing plate and the block.  As much as it truly sucks to have to pull the transmission, driveshaft, exhaust, clutch, etc........  Its almost a relief to know that I have chased the pesky leak to 1 specific area.

I will take the time to pull all apart and clean it up while inspecting.  This will be a combo of fixing an oil leak while cleaning up the flywheel, bellhousing, etc.  I will keep you all posted, but the pan and valve cover re-do was well worth it and worked perfectly!
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

cobracammer

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Re: 482 SOHC "Saleen Cammer" update
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2021, 01:39:39 PM »
OK Car is back up on the lift.....

After a bit of investigation, this is what I am seeing.  There are drips of oil coming off of the bellhousing.  I am getting a strong sense that any oil leak on this engine ends up on the bellhousing no matter where it originates.

1st off, Both valve cover gaskets are clean and dry.  No longer an oil leak coming from the passenger side valve cover gasket.

2nd off, the entire oil pan is still sealed well.  As a matter of fact, even the back of the scatter shield (?  plate between the engine block and the bell housing) is clean....  Hmmmm....

OK so if the back of the scatter shield is not showing any indication of oil "wetness", but there is still drips on the bottom lip of the bellhousing..... how did it get past to end up dripping where it currently is?

3rd off, after scanning around for any sign of oil seepage, I saw a drip or 2 of oil on the dipstick mount against the oil pan and one drop on the oil pan stud right above it (maybe 1\2 above).  Now I am 1000% sure that oill did not come from the oil pan itself, because all the way around the lip of the oil pan was dry and no drips down the sides....  checked all the way around with a paper towel. 

Thought was maybe a leak from the dip stick tube since I removed and cleaned while doing the oil pan.  I managed to get a wrench up there and tightened it another 1 or 2 turns, but its snug because of the thread sealant used (it scres into the oil pan/ not press fit).

Lastly I still have a small oil leak from the distributor area.  I don't think I really ever took care of this issue when it first popped up because the larger oil leak seemed more important.

Possibly the oil leak is not from the back of the block at all (I say this as its not on the scatter shield between the oil pan/Block and the back of the scatter shield).....

Having said that, it is still on the bell housing..... and its getting there from somewhere....

I am going to try and solve the little oil leak at the distributor...  If that doesn't seep anymore and the oil dipstick tube stays dry.......... and I still have the leak, then I will pull the transmission....

Would rather be sure I have to pull it...  But at least I can mark the oil pan and valve covers off of the list of suspects.  Back of the intake manifold seems dry as well (tissue test).  Only oil I can see is the distributor area and those 2 drips on the dipstick tube (for which I already tightened it up so hopefully its a non issue now).

Keeping on-Keep'n on!
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

Stangman

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Re: 482 SOHC "Saleen Cammer" update
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2021, 03:57:39 PM »
Sounds like you are norrowing it down but the dipstick and dizzy seal arent going to leak near the scattershield. Sounds like a tranny removal are in order. Boy if your waiting for a completely leak free FE you may never drive this or go to the track. :). Keep up the good work.

Royce

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Re: 482 SOHC "Saleen Cammer" update
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2021, 08:35:25 PM »
I was once exasperated with a leaking FE that i could not seem to dry up.. I was whining to an old timer and he laughed.  He said FEs just sweat oil.  You have to live with it..

Good luck anyway.. You may have the prize for the most persistent trouble shooter I have ever seen..
1955 Thunderbird Competition Coupe Altered Chassis "War Bird" 383 Lincoln Y block 520 hp
1955 Thunderbird 292 275 hp Y Block
1956 Ford Victoria 292 Y block
800hp 476 cu in Edsel MEL.. 2 time EMC ..SOLD
1957 Mercury 2dr Wagon "Battle Wagon" drag car 
1957 Thunderbird Glass body Tube Chassis drag car 333 cu in 500 hp Ford Y block
1961 Starliner 390/375 clone
1965 GT40 tribute w/FE
1966 Falcon Pro Touring project
Kaase Boss 547. 840 HP 698 Torque  pump gas
1992 BMW V-12 5.0
2001 Lincoln 5.4 4 cam.

cobracammer

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Re: 482 SOHC "Saleen Cammer" update
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2021, 09:04:09 PM »

(Text from a message (PM) I sent- Didn't want to just post pictures without any point of reference)


The Ford FE distributor from MSD comes with 2 O-Rings in the box when you purchase it.

There is a larger "V shaped" (for lack of a better description) which the instructions have you install at the top.  This larger angled O-ring is the one that seals the distributor hole at the intake manifold.....  the second O-ring is not mentioned in the instructions at all, so I never installed it.

Searching online, many people asked the same question....  why a second O-ring in the box?  Some say they put it under the angled one for extra diameter, some leave it out all together (say its an extra), etc.

I pulled the distributor on the SOHC tonight to install a high temp silicone band at the top of the distributor (under the V shaped/Angled one) to see if it would seal a bit tighter.  I don't know if you remember, but this intake manifold was the "prototype" used by Robert Pond when he was working with the foundry /Machine shop at the time he was going to start offering them for sale.

When I pulled the distributor tonight, I looked down the hole and under the intake manifold, I saw that the hole that is in the top of the block for the distributor to pass through has a machined lip around it (as if it were meant to mate with that second O-Ring)?  Is that a place on FE's where an O-ring usually goes?  It would make sense as it would prevent some/most of the oil from in the crankcase from splashing up into the valley of the block.

Also, I had noticed that the witness marks on the distributor gear where they mate with the stub cam gear were not in the middle of each tooth...  Not bad, but slightly higher than the center of the tooth.  My thought is also if the 2nd O ring was added, it would lift the distributor up a few millimeters and probably lead to a more central mesh with the gears.

I installed it and had planned to re-check the timing tomorrow

https://photos.app.goo.gl/cAxa2rgN36uFJDzC9

https://photos.app.goo.gl/eBoVqxEUTVWNUTuP6

https://photos.app.goo.gl/KtWBnbttHap85XRFA




Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

galaxiex

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Re: 482 SOHC "Saleen Cammer" update
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2021, 11:01:00 AM »
The machined step in the block is a critical height.
That is where the dist seats to give proper height/engagement of the gear to the cam gear.

Personally, I wouldn't mess with that.

Quote from Ford racing dist gear install paper...

Quote

With the aluminum distributor housing fully seated against
the block, verify that the distributor gear can be lifted off the
support in the block at least .005". Next pull the distributor
gear down against the support in the block and hold it there.
Pull up on the aluminum distributor housing and verify that you
can lift it up at least .005" while holding the gear against the
support in the block. This procedure will confirm that the gear
is not being forced down against the support and not being
held up off the support in the block.

Every 20 minute job is 1 broken bolt away from becoming a 3 day ordeal.

galaxiex

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Re: 482 SOHC "Saleen Cammer" update
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2021, 08:41:51 PM »
Here's the Ford Racing paper on dist gear install.

It's for small blocks and 385 series engines, but the warnings and info still applies. (distance dimensions will be different for the FE)

https://performanceparts.ford.com/download/instructionsheets/FordInstShtM-12390-ABCDEFGHJKL.pdf
« Last Edit: August 14, 2021, 08:45:37 PM by galaxiex »
Every 20 minute job is 1 broken bolt away from becoming a 3 day ordeal.

cobracammer

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Re: 482 SOHC "Saleen Cammer" update
« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2021, 01:18:11 PM »
Thanks....  All leaks have been found and corrected except for a small one from between the scatter shield and the back of the block.  Its small but irksome.

Let you all know what I find when I pull the transmission.

 ;)
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

cobracammer

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Re: 482 SOHC "Saleen Cammer" update
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2021, 06:33:48 PM »
Hey guys (and gals).

Wanted to throw this one up here for a little discussion.

Haven't pulled the transmission yet, but had an interesting thing happen last week.  I had a mobile locksmith come to the house to make me a second transponder key. When I purchased the can, it only came with one key and I need a second transponder key for a little side project I will discuss at a later time (once I have finished it).

So in preparation for the locksmith, I pulled the car out of the garage into the driveway.  Its important to note that I did not rev the engine, just started it...... backed it out and let it run at idle for about 15 minutes.  I only let it idle to get the fluids moving around as it spends large periods of time just sitting.

I had noticed after the 15 minutes that there were NO Oil Drips at all.....  while it was idling, for the full 15 min.  I then shut the engine off and the car sat in the driveway in the same spot for another 3 hours.  After the 3 hours, I checked again and there was no oil at all.

I am 100% sure

Now for the interesting part.  After the locksmith had gone, I had to pull the car into the garage again.....  however, this time since it was going to be a while before starting again, I revved the engine up to about 2500 RPM just to raise the oil pressure in the accumulator before shutting the switch and locking in the oil charge for the next time I start the car.  When I shut the car off, I noticed a few drips on the garage floor.

Sooooo...... 

1)  car does not leak oil just sitting as previously thought.

2)  car does not leak oil at idle (1000 RPM)

3) car does start to leak oil when the RPM's are raised- in this example, 2500 RPM

This to me sounds like the rear main seal is good.  It seems like excess crankcase pressure is pushing oil past the rear main seal at elevated RPM's????

Its worth noting that both of the Valve Covers have 1.5" to 2" breather tubes coming out of them and I put K&N style breather filters on them (as I was told the OEM breather caps were very restrictive.....  Have not seem any oil or oily residue at all on the top of the engine, so none is getting through the breather caps..... 

The valley of the Cammer block does not have the hole provisions for lifters, so there is no venting or pressure under the intake manifold....

The front timing chain cover connects to the oil pan in the front of the engine and each head has a 2" round passage in the front which would allow crankcase pressure to be directed from the front of the oil pan, up through the timing chain cover, through the round passage on the drivers and passenger head and out the breather tubes on the valve covers.  Doesnt seem super restrictive.

The only thing I can think of is of I remove the breather filters on each breather tube on the valve covers and look down into the tubes, its not wide open.  There is a metal seal in the middle of each tube with only a small triangle shaped piece pressed down a little.  I am thinking this is so you don't accidentally drop something down there while filling the car up with oil.  I wonder if this is too restrictive.  I am thinking of pulling each tube and then drilling a grid pattern of small holes to allow more pressure to escape?

I am rambling now.  What do you guys think?  Does it sound like excess crankcase pressure?  I want to test, but unsure how (what to block off while testing or what not to).

Also, what is normal or acceptable crankcase pressure in a ford FE?  I run like 11 quarts of oil with the accumulator, so not much room (if any) between the windage tray and the oil when engine is off,  I am guessing with the size of a Cammer engine, most of that oil will be pumped up to the top and be draining back down when running so engine oil level will be much lower when the engine is running.

Alot of information here.  Any thoughts???/????  Greatly appreciated   :)
« Last Edit: September 14, 2021, 10:34:42 AM by cobracammer »
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

jmlay

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Re: 482 SOHC "Saleen Cammer" update
« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2021, 12:48:01 PM »
I have never owned or worked on an SOHC. Any reason why a PCV may not be run in place of the valve covers breathers? This would elevate crank case pressure as well as evacuate moisture.
Mike

cobracammer

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Re: 482 SOHC "Saleen Cammer" update
« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2021, 08:53:05 AM »
Hi Mike,

Yes, I actually had originally put the breathers on....  then a few years ago I installed a PCV valve for a while.  Not seeing any difference in the leak, I went back  to the breathers because I thought they would let more pressure out.

Now that I am almost 100% sure this last oil leak is a pressure issue and not a bad seal- I reinstalled the PCV valve set up, but it still builds too much pressure at cruise and above.

My last ditch effort before I just learn to live with the leak was to purchase the M/E Wagner Dual Flow adjustable/tunable PCV valve.  This apparently allows you to adjust the PCV valve for idle under one circuit- and then adjust a separate circuit for "Cruise" when the crank case pressures are higher.  Read about it in Hotrod magazine first, and then read up on the product on their website.  Holds promise.  Its on its way in the mail, and after tuning it, I will go for a drive and report back.
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears