Author Topic: 482 SOHC "Saleen Cammer" update  (Read 5958 times)

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cobracammer

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482 SOHC "Saleen Cammer" update
« on: July 01, 2021, 02:03:15 PM »
Well hello.....  I didn't see you there.  LOL

As this has been a crazy year (as I am sure it has been for all), I haven't had time to post, but I am always here looking at others projects......  a little "Dr. Feel Good" for my eyes.

Now that things have calmed a bit, I wanted to give a little update on the "Saleen Cammer" as well as a little project that I am sure will end up not being "little".

Car runs well!  Haven't really put that many miles on it, just a few loops around town every few months to get an alignment or car show.  Ofcouse the tuning the guys on "Car Fix" did on the show helped a lot with the unburnt fuel smell, but I needed to go a little bit further.  I picked up a set of high flow catalytic converters from Pypes.  As they are meant to go right after the collectors to take advantage of all that exhaust heat- I already saw a problem.  My headers were custom pieces and do not leave enough room between the V band flange on the collector and the transmission.  The next spot with a long enough run of straight exhaust tubing was right after the X pipe.  Distance wise, it was only about 12-15 inches from where they were meant to be mounted in a perfect world, but still- my thinking was that I was not going to get all the heat needed.  Either way, my fix was to use header wrap on the X Pipe.  This way the heat from my headers (which are ceramic coated) now travel through the insulated X pipe through the Cats and then on.  This should at least "buy" me a little more heat retention.  After a text drive of about 20 minutes or so- Total success!  Fuel smell has almost been eliminated.

Now on to the current project.  After a few years now of having the small oil leak under the car (even when its not running), I have been slowly investigating and testing to see if its really the rear main seal, Oil pan gasket(s), or a leak from elsewhere higher up that is making its way sneakily down undetected to appear as though its one of those previous areas.

First clue is that it will drip even when it hasn't been run in months.  It drips more obviously after its been run and the oil has thinned, but 3 or 4 months of just sitting in the garage, I will still see a little puddle.  Another clue was when I was installing brand new axle bearings and seals.  With just the rear of the car jacked up, no oil drips.  The car sat like this for a little over a week as I awaited tools and parts to arrive in the mail.  SO - the day I jacked it up in the rear, I also slid under the front and wiped everything down as much as possible as well as cleaned the floor under the engine.  By the time I was done with the rear bearings, there were no engine leaks visible.  My guess is that the oil in the pan was tilted away from the section in the rear that was leaking and thus didn't drip.  This gave me hope that it was just something like pan gaskets (as Jay had originally suggested it might be) when my mind kept going to rear main seal.
My last little clue was the oil pan fasteners.  It currently has studs with flange nuts all the way around.  A year or so ago, I went around the pan and hand snugged them all to approx. the same tightness (torque becomes an issue as there is not much room under there to get the torque wrench to each nut give the headers, starter, cross member, custom oil pan flare outs for additional oil capacity, etc.  I had noticed when doing this that it did feel as though a few of them were a little looser than the others.  Unfortunately, even after I snugged each one down at that time, the oil puddle kept haunting me.  This time, after the rear bearing job, I went around to each stud/nut again to see if any had loosened and they had!  the current fastener set up will definately need to be changed.

So in preparation, I purchased 2 brand new Milodon Premium FE oil pan gaskets (because the engine has a windage tray),  High temp Copper RTV (I know everyone says black or red- but this copper stuff specifically says for use with oil pans and I had it on hand from the exhaust work recently completed),  a set of Stage-8 locking oil pan bolts to replace the studs and flange nuts currently on there, and an engine support bar (because I am going to try and do this without pulling the engine.  What will need to be done in order to access the pan is that the front K member will need to be dropped.  My thinking is that it will be "easier" to do that then to pull apart the exhaust, Headers, trans, fuel system, coolant system......etc to pull the engine.  "Easier" meaning the lesser of 2 evils.

The only part of not pulling the engine I will regret is that I have always wanted to connect the small front sump of the oil pan to the rear deep sump.  I am not sure why this pan was designed like this (even has 2 oil drain plugs), but in my mind the 2 quarts of so that would live in the smaller front sump are basically useless.  My thought was to weld 2 seperate -12 AN fittings to the front sump and 2 matching -12 AN fittings to the rear sump- Attaching them with braided hose and AN fittings.  This way they can be connected after the engine has been installed and can run under the K member bracing to allow the front sump oil to flow freely into the rear sump (increasing capacity by like 2 quarts!).......  I guess that will have to wait for another time.

Anyway, I know these posts are slightly boring without photos, So I will try and snap a few as this "little" project gets under way.   8)
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

cjshaker

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Re: 482 SOHC "Saleen Cammer" update
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2021, 02:31:27 PM »
Just a note that if conventional cork/rubber gaskets were used on the oil pan, it's not unusual for them to compress and need retightening a couple of times. Same goes with valve cover gaskets. Not saying that's the issue with the leak, but locking bolts probably weren't the issue with yours being loose. With those gaskets, getting a 1/4 turn after allowing some "settling" time is not at all uncommon.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

cobracammer

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Re: 482 SOHC "Saleen Cammer" update
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2021, 02:50:41 PM »
Thanks Doug!  For a little bit, I was considering purchasing 1 cheap gasket, and then a few pieces of High temp silicone mat (usually come in sheets of Orange or Black)....  then just tracing custom silicone gaskets using the cheap one as a template.....

But the more I thought about it, I wondered why no one sells oil pan gaskets made out of high temp silicone rubber for the Ford FE engines.  My thought was that those silicone mats come in different thicknesses, don't shrink (or very little) and are naturally a tacky non-slip material- so probably would not need any sealant.  Anyone have thoughts on that?
« Last Edit: May 23, 2023, 03:13:53 PM by cobracammer »
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

WConley

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Re: 482 SOHC "Saleen Cammer" update
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2021, 08:05:52 PM »
Jason -

Glad to see you back!  Yeah a set of high flow cats are the "meow" for knocking down those pesky hydrocarbons.

I bet you're right that it's an oil pan gasket drip.  The double gaskets with the windage tray make it tough to seal.  Sounds like you're on the right track with the sealant and the new fasteners.

 - Bill
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

cobracammer

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Re: 482 SOHC "Saleen Cammer" update
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2021, 12:02:31 PM »
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what the difference is in torque specs for the oil pan on an FE?  I think the original torque specs were 12 to 15 ft/lbs, but I am assuming that it was for an iron block.  What should oil pan bolts be torqued to in an aluminum block?

If I am not mistaken, the oil pan bolts on the FE are:   5/16 - 18  X 3/4".

Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

cobracammer

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Re: 482 SOHC "Saleen Cammer" update
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2021, 09:31:03 AM »
Well, as expected- just taking the oil pan off was a pain in the butt!  It was a combination of lifting upward slightly with the Engine support bar, while loosening the Front K member, removing the motor mounts, disconnecting the Steering rack and getting just enough clearance to pull the pan.  Then once the pan was removed, unbolting the oil pickup tube from the oil pump and block in order to remove the windage tray as well.

Had to order a new oil pickup tube gasket- so while waiting for it, I am letting all of the oil drip out...... Cleaning the mating surface on the bottom of the block as clean as possible (Scrape with a razor and use soapy water/ degreaser ) to make sure the new gaskets (gasket/Pan/Windage tray) seal neatly.

Also, I read online that after removing an oil pan, its worth going around it to make sure the pan rails are still flat and not warped.  I am  planning to put it upside down on a flat surface and lightly tapping and deformations back flat with a hammer.  Plan is to do the same with the windage tray as well.

While trying to get the oil pan off, I realized that I would only be able to torque about half of the new fasteners when reinstalling.  I seriously doubt that torqueing half of them will be of any use.   Any ideas how I can do this properly with a socket on half of them and a crescent wrench on the other half?  Don't want to over or under tighten any of them, but cant think of how to ensure they all get the same tightness by hand.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/oufCtZcmrzunW8HVA

https://photos.app.goo.gl/E63juZ2Vj6MtpTq29

« Last Edit: July 08, 2021, 07:20:36 AM by cobracammer »
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

gdaddy01

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Re: 482 SOHC "Saleen Cammer" update
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2021, 04:26:38 PM »
use the same length box end , combination wrench , as the length of your racket , torque wrench handle . pull from the same place , length , from the bolts . 

mike7570

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Re: 482 SOHC "Saleen Cammer" update
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2021, 11:10:31 PM »
Sort of like new fangled cars using torque angle instead of foot pounds. Only with new cars you throw away all the bolts and start with new ones  >:(

cobracammer

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Re: 482 SOHC "Saleen Cammer" update
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2021, 10:34:47 AM »
Here is an interesting tid-bit.  While I am cleaning and recleaning the pan rails, windage tray and block mating surface. I just happen to notice that the Oil drain back holes in the rear man cap are in line with the oil pan mounting holes......

This means when the oil pan/ windage tray/ gasket sandwich is bolted onto the block, the oil drain back holes on the rear main cap drain directly onto the oil pan/windage tray assembly and not drop directly down into the pan.  A thought is that since the engine has a "slight" tilt rearward when bolted in place on the engine mounts, the oil drain back is probably pouring oil directly onto a "Shelf" made of the gaskets, windage tray and oil pan rail.  I could definitely modify the gaskets and windage tray ---but not the oil pan itself just given where the oil pan bolt holes are in relation.

Is this just a bad pan design?  OR a bad FE (Side Oiler) engine block design?  LOL  It does appear that other FE blocks, for example 390's, have the oil drain back in the rear main cap, but its shifted closer to the front and thus does not seem to be back as far as the side oiler drain back holes.....

This is not a photo of my actual block, but shows how the drain back holes site a little further back on the  427 Side Oiler block than say for instance a 390.   The second photo is something like a 390 (ignore the red arrow as it was in the stock image I found online)

https://photos.app.goo.gl/93nZvj11M6Lp8mhG7

https://photos.app.goo.gl/mNkHUEv1BeBHjXt1A
« Last Edit: July 08, 2021, 07:28:52 AM by cobracammer »
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

BigBlueIron

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Re: 482 SOHC "Saleen Cammer" update
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2021, 11:35:06 AM »
I generally notch the windage tray to prevent any blockage of the drain. Not sure why they aren't made that way.

cobracammer

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Re: 482 SOHC "Saleen Cammer" update
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2021, 01:13:21 PM »
Yea, I cleaned the windage tray to a state of "Squeeky", however there is still the outline of the clock mating surface visible.  This helps, because it shows where the windage tray overhangs the block creating that shelf that the oil is falling on. 

I took the windage tray and laid it on top of the oil pan (also in a clean state known as "Squeeky"), and with the outline of the block on the tray, I can also see that even if I fully notched out the windage tray to not block the oil drain back holes, the pan will still create a small shelf....  Luckily, it doesn't block it all the way. 

I also took a straight edge and went across the block mating surface (where the rear main cap bolts/studs are).  On the passenger side, the stud/nut are just below the mating surface so do not cause any interference.  The drivers side stands a little proud of the mating surface by possible 1 or 2 threads.  I am also assuming that this possibly caused a little warpage on the rear pad seal.  I will be notching out the windage tray for the oil drain back and also making 2 small clearance holes the the rear main cap studs are located just so the tray will seal flat when tightened.
It will have to do!

So here is where we are.  I have the pan, tray and pickup clean as a whistle.  I will be doing the aforementioned modifications to the windage tray for clearance.

I have a few stainless steel bulkhead fittings (-10AN male) that were advertised for turbo drain back setups.  I will be putting 2 of them in the bottom of the front small sump and 2 more slightly lower in the main large sump.  Connecting them is -10AN stainless braided hose with 10AN (female) aluminum fittings.  they will be offset only slightly so the front sump can finally empty into the main sump and be "useful" oil. 

after speaking with Jay, I ordered some 3/16 flat bar stock (mild steel).  I will be fabricating 4 oil pan reinforcement bars (2 smaller ones for the front and rear of the oil pan- 2 longer ones (about 12") for each side.  This with 1-1/4" Stage 8 locking fasteners should give me a little extra security.

I have been just letting the engine slowly drip out the remaining oil so that when the time comes, there will not be any contamination when I go to put on the new gaskets and RTV.

I am also going to try and flatten the oil pan rails out as straight as possible.  It appears that over time, I may have overtightened them trying to stop the leak, and now each bolt hole stands a little domed/convex above the rail.  I will try lightly tapping each one down with a hammer and checking for "flatness".

Here is a picture of the innards!  Thought this was interesting.  Everything is so clean, it doesn't even look like its been run!  Please excuse the gasket material.  I took this before I got to cleaning.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/6CPEmTkFUo94tVRcA


Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

cobracammer

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Re: 482 SOHC "Saleen Cammer" update
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2021, 10:13:27 AM »
Hey All,

Just wanted to give a quick update (although oil pan gasket replacement is usually not all that thrilling).  This thing kicked my butt!  Getting the pan out was a combination of lifting up on the engine with the Engine Support Bar, while also lowering the front K member, disconnecting steering, sway bars, motor mounts, some wiring, etc.  Due to the deep sump, the pick up tube was stopping the pan from coming right out.  Took about a day, in the end, it was a combination of lowering the pan just enough to unbolt the pick up tube, the pulling the pick up tube out the side.... then removing the pan.... then going back for the windage tray....  All of this was sort of covered in the first few threads.

Then it was on to cleaning, cleaning, cleaning, straightening the pan rails, straightening the windage tray, and cleaning again!  I went a little bonkers on each step mostly because I did not want to have to ever do this again (on this particular car).

https://photos.app.goo.gl/E6CKNKdzv9parDXx9

https://photos.app.goo.gl/6sqUz5yjYyb6p9uy6

https://photos.app.goo.gl/YM6rKTiE56PTCCFFA


Then I installed 2 stainless steel -10AN male fittings in the front smaller sump to allow the front sump oil to now drain back to the rear sump.... and 2 more stainless steel -10AN male fittings in the rear sump.  I read a bunch on these fittings as they are designed to go in oil pans for Turbo drain back applications, and the consensus was no Loctite or tephalon tape on the threads inside the oil pan.  They have special 2 part washers that are used- 1 seals the inside of the pan and the other on the outside.  Also because they are steel and not aluminum, you can really wrench them tight.  they will be connected by stainless braided hose with 90 degree female fittings on both ends.  This will create a little downward sloping arch/curve out the side of the pan on each side of braided hose.  (I initially had a straight hose end fittings that went from front to rear sump installed, but it just so happens that the steering rack interfered so I had to temp remove them (leaving the stainess steel pan fittings with rubber caps on them so no debris gets into the clean oil pan.).  I have some of these 90 degree fittings and some additional stainless braided hose on its way.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/u3cbff7xsyQN1LqJ6

https://photos.app.goo.gl/tr3h4xasvd1TMA8f6

Lastly we come to the 3/16 steel pan rails.  I thought about this for a day or 2 before I got started.  The thing is with these FE oil pans, they have double rows of little "Fillets" between each bolt hole.  This is there for strengthening the pan rails, but it would also stop a pan rain support from sitting flush.  What I decided in the end was to make custom square washers for each pan bolt hole.  It covers the engine area around each bolt hole up to the fillets.  Around the back, where the pan was leaking (I think), the 2 back pan washers are a funky shape because of the rear pan kickout, but after a little finesse on the milling machine, they perfectly hug the wonky area around each bolt.  On top of that, each flat washer for a Stage8 locking bolt so they will never back out.  These are pretty cool and well worth the $.  There were actually only 3 holes in which I had to  use the orignal stud and nut with a lock washer.  These were above my pans custom side kickouts (like a T pan).  It was impossible to get any tool of size in there with the exception of a small allen key..... and even with that, I could only get about 1/8th of a turn each time.... needless to say that just those 3 took me about 4 hours alone.


https://photos.app.goo.gl/ehG4mAfXQqz3HXr56


Also worth noting is I wanted to see how much oil I have been putting into this engine.  When I do an oil change, I put in 11 Quarts.  This is for the modified pan as well as the 3qt Accusump in the trunk (which under pressure doent hold exactly 3 quarts, but there is also oil in the lines that run from the trunk to engine.  I wanted to see where 11 quarts of oil sits with the windage tray on.  So after cleaning- but before the alcohol rub down, I put the pan on the counter and started adding quarts of water 1 at a time.  Believe it or not, 11 quarts of oil in this pan comes to about 1/8 of an inch above the oil baffle in the sump.  It doesnt even touch the bottom of the windage tray layed on top without a gasket  (although close).  So when the engine is running and some of this oil gets pushed into the accusump, the oil level is below the gasket seam.  Heck- even if all 11 quarts are in the pan at once, its still below the pan seam.

« Last Edit: July 13, 2021, 11:38:31 AM by cobracammer »
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

62Falcon390

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Re: 482 SOHC "Saleen Cammer" update
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2021, 11:45:45 AM »
i thought about doing that to my canton pan too. 

cobracammer

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Re: 482 SOHC "Saleen Cammer" update
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2021, 01:58:22 PM »
Here is the last piece of the puzzle!

https://photos.app.goo.gl/paeEhAhaRaC8hAfq5

As you can see, the running theme on this car is little no to room anywhere!  The bungs in the oil pan are stainless steel AN ports.  They are the non weld style with compression O rings on the inside and outside.  Although they are not leaking at the moment, It makes me feel a little nervous with a potential point for the oil to drain out while on the road.  To make me feel better, I am going to clean around each bung/ clean and scratch up the pan/ and then 2 part metal epoxy them all the way around.  This is for no other reason other than piece of mind and a little insurance against them coming loose during heat cycles or vibration.
Jason
2005 Saleen S281 (427 SOHC 2 X 4 EFI swap), T56 Magnum XL 6 speed, 9" Currie rear with 3.89 Gears

sixty9cobra

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Re: 482 SOHC "Saleen Cammer" update
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2021, 02:02:14 PM »
NM