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Messages - Thumperbird

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286
FE Technical Forum / Re: 445 Stroker Build Help
« on: December 30, 2017, 09:46:03 AM »
Thanks My427Stang, our posts crossed each other.
I agree, the threads that get heated are no fun, it is so easy and natural to a degree to interpret or to take things how one wants from written words when in a face to face the tone would be so much different.

I've decided I need individual valve servo control so I can dial things in, wish that was out there for reasonable money.

Keep the info. coming guys, more thoughts on specific duration, LSA, ICL, and lift targets? (combinations)
Thanks all.

287
FE Technical Forum / Re: 445 Stroker Build Help
« on: December 30, 2017, 09:33:32 AM »
OK, new winner for best quote so far.
"Its like evaluating a person based on just the number on the bathroom scale.  One guy with a potbelly and no muscles can weigh exactly the same as another guy with zero body fat and a ripped physique.  But if you evaluate using only the scale they appear identical.  (Unfortunately I am closer to the first guy in this example...)"

All of these #'s are reference points to consider and they have relational significance, static and dynamic. I will no longer get stuck or fixated on a specific value other than selecting some combination of specifics that I and whom ever I purchase from feel is the best fit for the heavy car.

I intend to study the relationships of duration, overlap, LSA, ICL, etc. a bit more here, being a visual learner I need to see some graphs or be able to play with a program at least for education sake, I understand bench top analysis is very limited.  Is there any freeware out there worth playing with?

Definitely going to open up the heads and I almost wish now I would have gone with a lighter valve train but too late for that and I guess if I push things too much anyways I will destroy the block.  Can that centerline section between the cam and mains be strengthened in any way so it does not split?
Thanks.


288
FE Technical Forum / Re: 445 Stroker Build Help
« on: December 29, 2017, 02:07:11 PM »
Thanks everyone, this is a great discussion, exactly what I was hoping for, at least for me in that it enables trade off decisions based on a nice variety of inputs.

I will back the nitrous off.  I believe the MSD 6AL has an input I can toggle to retard timing should I give it a shot.
If I blow it up then I will try again I suppose with that "affordable" aftermarket block Scott and all are looking for.
Street strip dress the heads, Jay has provided a local shop recommendation for that work.
Already committed to Hyd. roller, Harland Sharp bar/rockers, Morel lifters.
May not be quite so concerned about CR, 10.25 might be good, but thinking I want to stay above 8 DCR
I will post a CAD model of the spacer some time here just for fun, it is nothing fancy at all.
Yes, how it impacts flow concerns me but am hoping a combination of 1" 4 hole spacer, followed by nitrous plate, followed by offset spacer will give me a nice "mix" of physics to yield a uniform flow.

My favorite quote so far "but the fast guys do head work, car show guys do big cams"
I do want it to idle and behave a little racy but want to back it up with some real responsive go as well, thinking of this as a hybrid, in between the car show bling and the track in terms of performance.

Thanks again, keep it coming and if there are more out there willing to give 2 cents worth I would appreciate it!
Back to building my paint booth so I can spray some epoxy primer tomorrow, of course it has to be the coldest day of the year so far.
 

 

289
FE Technical Forum / Re: 445 Stroker Build Help
« on: December 29, 2017, 08:15:27 AM »
Brent:
Certainly was not implying I did not like what you had to say and I hope others continue to chime in with their thoughts on this for a while longer here, please don't shy away.
As stated in original post, given lots of variation in recommendations, I was opening it up to a wider audience, and too that end, I am getting a little more comfortable with settling in on a design as planned.
As an automation equipment guy, when I don't have full understanding, especially in the case of very dynamic systems, I collect data so I can make the most informed decision possible.  Since physical prototyping and testing is prohibative I have to rely on published artiles and others experience to educate me.

For you guys that are builders and suppliers, of course you don't want me coming back at you with a problem so I suspect you remain a bit on the conservative side, of course you would.  Do I want to specify a turd, of course not, but some of the car build sport/fun lies in the edginess of the whole thing. (for a thunderbird)  At the end of the day, if there is secret sauce, yes I would kind of like to know what it is so I can be more independant down the road.

As for the nitrous aspect, I get the message, I will dial it back and if it is used it would be couple second shots at most anyways.  I fully understand there will be tuning all around, suspension issues, you name it, I just want to get off to a good start with a solid foundation and not leave too much on the table even though I want to get in it and go on a nice summer day.
Thanks for your time Brent and thanks all for your input.




290
FE Technical Forum / Re: 445 Stroker Build Help
« on: December 28, 2017, 08:17:12 PM »
Thanks for "throw in", much appreciated, making a spreadsheet to compile input on cam and compression.
I was not very clear on the trans. in my post, C6 first gear standard ratio is 2.45, the wide ratio first gear is 2.75 so I just added the .3 uptick to the 3.5 rear to get to 3.8 effective ratio.  The idea is that it will still go down the highway at a reasonable RPM since 3rd is 1:1 with 3.5 rear end.  Broader new what the build was when he spec'd the tranny, I will ask him for more details.
Will take it easy on the nitrous, it is mostly just for fun, I can set a shot as low as 75 per plate I think.
Since two carbs and two plates, is the nitrous shot HP additive?
New brake components all around and dual master cylinder so should be able to stop it.
Thanks again to all and keep the info. coming please!

291
FE Technical Forum / Re: 445 Stroker Build Help
« on: December 28, 2017, 03:10:43 PM »
Thanks all. 
Carb. spacers are my own design.
Hood has a hole, scoop sits above, just for fun.
Anyone else have some more specifics on cam #'s and compression?
Leaning towards at least 10:1 for compression, I can find 93 octane.
One of my bigger concerns is extra plenum volume due o spacers, how do I make this behave like regular RPM dual plane at lower rpm's?
Thanks.

292
FE Technical Forum / 445 Stroker Build Help
« on: December 27, 2017, 07:28:35 PM »
Hello everyone, new to forum, building a 445 stroker and need compression/cam specification advice.
Will use SCAT crank, H beam rods, pistons ?, hydraulic roller cam spec.?
So far, in addition to my own homework, I have engaged several of the well known builders in the US, some frequent this site.  I have gotten a fairly wide range of input on compression target and cam specifications, trying to triangulate on the best approach for my application.  At the end of the day I prefer to know what the lobe profile is specifically so that future changes can be a derivative of my starting point.  Below please find the desired outcome and target automobile setup so far, hoping and looking for feedback anyone is willing to share in collaboration on my project, thank you for your time.

Goal:
500+HP, 500 TQ, all in by 5500 rpm, pump premium, edgy but not too crazy rough idle is good, reasonable idle rpm, reasonably smooth cruiser but of course when I stomp on it from a stop or rolling start I want to get a heavy car up and going quickly with great low end throttle response.  If it pulls hard to 80 mph I will be happy, will likely not see the strip.

Car so far:
1965 Thunderbird (4500 pounds)
390 to be bored 0.030” over and stroked to make a 445
Edelbrock aluminum heads, 72cc (will receive at least port match to intake and exhaust)
Will deck the block to maximize quench
Edelbrock RPM Air Gap dual quad intake
BJ/BK carbs (custom 1” rise/run offset spacers to enable mounting (forward) on Edelbrock manifold, adds open plenum volume just above manifold carb flanges)
Another 1” of 4 hole spacer to set hood scoop height correctly (adds some more plenum volume)
½” nitrous plates (wet)
MSD 6AL ignition and distributor
Harland Sharp roller rockers
Morel lifters
Carter fuel pump
Melling oil pump
FPA headers (will be 2.5” true dual exhaust)
100 to 200 HP nitrous capability (not to really influence design other than H rods maybe)
Broader wide ratio C6 (very firm shifting) with 2600 to 3000RPM stall convertor
Quick Performance 3.5 ratio True Trac (with wide ratio trans. 1st gear is 3.8:1, 2nd 3.6)
27” tires
Electric vacuum pump (not too worried about engine vacuum)

What do you guys think for compression target?  Flat top or dished pistons?
Cam specification, lift, duration, lobe profile, LSA, IDL, dual profile?
Specific part # recommendations welcome as well.

Thanks all!

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