Author Topic: Ford MG9394 Bellhousing  (Read 6450 times)

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gwingard

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Ford MG9394 Bellhousing
« on: January 11, 2021, 06:20:45 PM »
I'm curious to know if anyone out there in FE-land can tell me what vehicles used the MG9394 bellhousing.  I got one of these when I bought solid lifter 390 block but I'm not sure if it actually belonged with said block.  This bellhousing gave me additional pressure plate clearance when I was building a 410 motor with a McLeod clutch for my 1964 Mercury Marauder.  This bell had a smaller release lever window which I modified to accept the modern rubber boot for the release lever.  The release lever fulcrum need to be moved .355 in the direction of the crankshaft to accommodate my Mercury release lever.  After these mods everything worked just fine.  Any info on this bellhousing would be greatly appreciated.

Geoffrey

thatdarncat

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Re: Ford MG9394 Bellhousing
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2021, 07:46:15 PM »
I don’t really have any specific info, but looking through my date code notebook log I was reminded there is currently one for sale on the FE Fanatics Garage Sale Facebook page. I’ve seen a few others, but this one has a nice clear picture of the date code so I noted it. The date code of this one is “8 1 (backwards) E” which is 1958 January 30th, which is in the 1958 model year. The only FE powered vehicles at that time would be a full size Ford, T-Bird, & Edsel, so one could maybe assume those are the applications, but that’s just speculation. The next generation of bellhousings I tend to see, going by date codes, are the ones with the “4848339” casting number. The MG 6394-A bellhousings may only have been used for the first couple model years, but that’s just speculation at this time too. It would be nice if some more people would note the date codes of this stuff, if anyone has one of these lying around, or a known application, hopefully they post it up. Here’s the one on Facebook.

Kevin Rolph

1967 Cougar Drag Car ( under constuction )
1966 7 litre Galaxie
1966 Country Squire 390
1966 Cyclone GT 390
1968 Torino GT 390
1972 Gran Torino wagon
1978 Lincoln Mk V

427John

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Re: Ford MG9394 Bellhousing
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2021, 08:07:44 PM »
I've got 1 of those too,I think they were used in the 58 model year,mine has a late 1957 casting date,the smaller window was due to use of a leather boot with metal clips instead of the rubber.I'm not sure which lever it used,obviously not the same as the later bells.I've got a couple more that have a number of 4848339 that have  59 and 61 casting dates on them,so they must have switched to them at some point,and then they started using the C3AA in 63.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 08:18:48 PM by 427John »

Gregwill16

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Re: Ford MG9394 Bellhousing
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2021, 08:17:03 PM »
I've never seen one of the MG bellhousings, but I sold one of the 4848339 versions last year with a 4C or D date. It had one of the leather boots with it as well.

427John

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Re: Ford MG9394 Bellhousing
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2021, 08:17:44 PM »
Kevin another possible use could be early Edsel and Mercury MEL motors supposedly FE bells fit them too.When I get a chance I will take a closer look at mine to see if any have the PP clearance hump like the C5AA and C6OA bells,since Geoffrey mentioned that it gave him additional PP clearance maybe one is for a 11.5" PP.

427John

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Re: Ford MG9394 Bellhousing
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2021, 08:24:45 PM »
Geoffrey what brand PP were you running the reason I ask is a buddy had a clearance problem with a centerforce PP in an early Galaxie bell but I don't remember which number it was.

Rory428

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Re: Ford MG9394 Bellhousing
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2021, 11:41:06 PM »
I don`t recall the casting number on it, but I have a similar looking bellhousing behind the 428 in my 59 2 door sedan. The casting date was for a late 1960 or early 61 as I recall. I prefer the later style clutch forks with the flat leaf retaining spring, so I replaced the pivot fulcrum and clutch fork with McLeod pieces, which works fine with the 59s factory mechanical clutch linkage. I also used a new McLeod steel flywheel and 11" Long Style "Street Pro" clutch kit. I am using a small block wide ratio Toploader, and had to use the inside mounting holes, as the early only has the narrow pattern. Biggest concern is these early bellhousings have a smaller hole for the transmissions front bearing retainer. I had 3 options, 1 is to find a 1964 only Toploader bearing retainer, 2nd is to have your existing retaining machined down to the smaller diameter, or finally, do as I did, have the bellhousings hole opened up to the 65& newer size. I went that route so than if needed, any other Toploader would fit. Although these early bells are designed to use the early long shaft "follow Thru" starter motor, that did not use a steel block plate between the engine block and bellhousing, and had a smaller flywheel, I used the later 184 tooth flywheel, and short nose starter, and a block plate, and it starts up great with no funny noises.
1978 Fairmont,FE 427 with 428 crank, 4 speed Jerico best of 9.972@132.54MPH 1.29 60 foot
1985 Mustang HB 331 SB Ford, 4 speed Jerico, best of 10.29@128 MPH 1.40 60 foot.
1974 F350 race car hauler 390 NP435 4 speed
1959 Ford Meteor 2 dr sedan. 428 Cobra Jet, 4 speed Toploader. 12.54@ 108 MPH

427John

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Re: Ford MG9394 Bellhousing
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2021, 01:32:17 AM »
That doesn't surprise me on the flywheel clearance the early flywheel is actually no smaller than the late one just the ring gear pitch is different,supposedly you can even switch the ring gear if you want.Did you have any issues with longer input shaft small block toploader working with the shallower car bell?The truck bell is deeper and works fine with the small block trans,I measured them once but can't remember how much difference there was.

GerryP

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Re: Ford MG9394 Bellhousing
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2021, 09:13:15 AM »
...I measured them once but can't remember how much difference there was.

5/8"

thatdarncat

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Re: Ford MG9394 Bellhousing
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2021, 10:34:53 AM »
...I measured them once but can't remember how much difference there was.

5/8"

I don’t want the post to go sideways, one of our members a while ago endeavored to get an accurate measurement of the difference between the passenger car and pickup truck bellhousings. He came up with .400”. Here’s a screenshot of the post from one of the FE Facebook pages. This of course is just a sample of two bellhousings, but so far it’s best documented measurement I’ve seen.

Kevin Rolph

1967 Cougar Drag Car ( under constuction )
1966 7 litre Galaxie
1966 Country Squire 390
1966 Cyclone GT 390
1968 Torino GT 390
1972 Gran Torino wagon
1978 Lincoln Mk V

Rory428

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Re: Ford MG9394 Bellhousing
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2021, 11:15:34 AM »
That doesn't surprise me on the flywheel clearance the early flywheel is actually no smaller than the late one just the ring gear pitch is different,supposedly you can even switch the ring gear if you want.Did you have any issues with longer input shaft small block toploader working with the shallower car bell?The truck bell is deeper and works fine with the small block trans,I measured them once but can't remember how much difference there was.
Not at all. I bolted up the bellhousing and block plate, with no flywheel or clutch, and there was sufficient clearance between the splined nose and the pilot bushing. I then measured the length of the input tip, and compared it to the distance from the backside of pilot bushing to the bottom of the hole in the crankshaft, and there was lots of room, no need to trim the top down. Now, this was with a factory Ford 1UB 428CJ crank, I can`t say that every FE crank has the same depth hole(s), but in my case, it was a non issue. Makes you wonder if this "problem" was an urban myth, or has anybody actually had such an issue, first hand in real life? Maybe earlier, or later cranks had a shallower hole, I can`t say myself.
1978 Fairmont,FE 427 with 428 crank, 4 speed Jerico best of 9.972@132.54MPH 1.29 60 foot
1985 Mustang HB 331 SB Ford, 4 speed Jerico, best of 10.29@128 MPH 1.40 60 foot.
1974 F350 race car hauler 390 NP435 4 speed
1959 Ford Meteor 2 dr sedan. 428 Cobra Jet, 4 speed Toploader. 12.54@ 108 MPH

Heo

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Re: Ford MG9394 Bellhousing
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2021, 11:28:35 AM »
I had one bottoming out but that was on a Y-block,62 truck 292with 56 passenger bell. Maybe the "myth"
comes from there?



The defenition of a Gentleman, is a man that can play the accordion.But dont do it

allrightmike

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Re: Ford MG9394 Bellhousing
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2021, 11:37:52 AM »
Were '58 T-birds available with a manual transmission?

SSdynosaur

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Re: Ford MG9394 Bellhousing
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2021, 01:40:30 PM »
Yes. Three speed on the tree. I don't know if availability covered the MEL engine or not but definitely the 352 FE.

427John

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Re: Ford MG9394 Bellhousing
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2021, 02:41:20 PM »
Were '58 T-birds available with a manual transmission?
I'm not sure about all 3 years(58-60)but I've got some squarebird clutch stuff around here somewhere,and if I remember right it came out of a 58.

SSdynosaur

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Re: Ford MG9394 Bellhousing
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2021, 04:09:59 PM »
Yes. I can confirm that '58 T-bird definitely had a 3-on-the-tree available, at least with the 352 FE engine. I don't know of availability with the MEL engine.

Rory428

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Re: Ford MG9394 Bellhousing
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2021, 11:14:50 PM »
59 Tbird also was available with a 3 speed manual, no idea how common they are. I saw such a car at a local informal car gathering in late July last year.  352 with a 3 speed manual, with a column shifter. I recall, I believe on the other FE board, one of the guys converted his 1960, I think, Thunderbird, from a 3 speed to a 4 speed Toploader. I have to think there are not many looking for Squarebird clutch linkage, but for those that are, I imagine finding that stuff would feel like winning the lottery.
1978 Fairmont,FE 427 with 428 crank, 4 speed Jerico best of 9.972@132.54MPH 1.29 60 foot
1985 Mustang HB 331 SB Ford, 4 speed Jerico, best of 10.29@128 MPH 1.40 60 foot.
1974 F350 race car hauler 390 NP435 4 speed
1959 Ford Meteor 2 dr sedan. 428 Cobra Jet, 4 speed Toploader. 12.54@ 108 MPH

TomP

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Re: Ford MG9394 Bellhousing
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2021, 03:50:45 PM »
There was a 430 three speed manual TBird for sale in England in a Custom Car magazine ad in the late 90's. Cheap too.

427John

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Re: Ford MG9394 Bellhousing
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2021, 04:34:31 PM »
Probably Johnny Beauchamp's Inaugural 59 Daytona Holman Moody built 430 Bird  ;D,those Holman Moody racers were manual.

gwingard

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Re: Ford MG9394 Bellhousing
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2021, 10:55:16 AM »
Wow, what great responses to my query.  To answer 427John's question, I'm running a Ram 1518 flywheel and a McLeod 75212 Street Pro clutch and pressure plate.  My trans is an HEH D toploader.  Sorry that I failed to recognize the date codes when I did the work on the bellhousing but my curiosity about all this isn't strong enough to make me take it all back apart to look!  I had some some issues at the time with not having enough throw out bearing free play but I believe that was due to a defective pressure plate that McLeod replaced for me.  I remember doing a lot of measurements from the engine side of the bell to the trans mount side but sadly I failed to make note of it.  As I recall the MG9394 bell was on the order of .400 longer.  Relocating the lever fulcrum wasn't a big deal as there was plenty of meat in there to work with.  As I also recall, the solid lifter engine core I used in this build has a C5 date code so I guess that the bell I got with the core was from an earlier vehicle.  The stock bell housing in my '64 Merc was a C3AA6394 A and lacked clearance for the McLeod  pressure plate.  I attempted to clearance the original bell but there wasn't quite enough meat on the bones and wound up grinding through it.  I guess it was just plain luck that I had the MG9394 lying around and that it could be made to fit.  Thanks to everyone for all the thoughtful input. 

gwingard

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Re: Ford MG9394 Bellhousing
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2021, 01:37:10 PM »
Opps, fat fingered the difference in length of the bellhousings.  I think it was .0400. 

427John

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Re: Ford MG9394 Bellhousing
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2021, 03:37:18 PM »
So your saying the earlier MG bell was deeper than the C3AA?I was always under the assumption that the car bells were shallower,but now it sounds like early ones weren't,I guess I need to measure,I've got examples of the MG,4848339,and the C3AA,as well as the later C5AA & C6OA.Maybe the earlier cars used a longer input shaft on the trans like the later small block transmissions.

thatdarncat

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Re: Ford MG9394 Bellhousing
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2021, 04:35:50 PM »
Sounds like there’s an opportunity for someone to write “The Great FE Bellhousing Comparo” book  ;)
Kevin Rolph

1967 Cougar Drag Car ( under constuction )
1966 7 litre Galaxie
1966 Country Squire 390
1966 Cyclone GT 390
1968 Torino GT 390
1972 Gran Torino wagon
1978 Lincoln Mk V

427John

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Re: Ford MG9394 Bellhousing
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2021, 05:49:51 PM »
Sounds like there’s an opportunity for someone to write “The Great FE Bellhousing Comparo” book  ;)
I don't know if there is enough to fill a book,maybe a slightly longer than normal post. ;D

427John

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Re: Ford MG9394 Bellhousing
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2021, 07:11:37 PM »
Ok did some quick measuring on the bells by placing the block mounting surface flat on the floor and measuring from the floor up to the trans mounting surface and here are the results:
      MG 6394  deep starter pocket early narrow ford bolt pattern ~6.5" deep uses early style leather fork boot with metal clips
      4848339  deep starter pocket early narrow ford bolt pattern ~6.5" deep uses early style leather fork boot with metal clips
C3AA 6394 A  deep starter pocket early narrow ford bolt pattern ~6.5" deep this bell and later uses rubber fork boot
C5AA 6394 A shallow starter pocket late wide ford bolt pattern ~ 6.5 " deep identical to C6OA-D except that bellhousing mount bellcrank ball stud boss is intact and drilled and tapped for use on 65 and later Galaxies.
C6OA-D mine is unavailable due to being on car but is identical to C5AA-A except that bellhousing mount bellcrank ball stud boss is partially milled away for use in Mustang/Cougar and Fairlane/Comet with block mounted bellcrank ball stud.
C5TA 7505 A  shallow starter pocket late wide ford bolt pattern ~ 6.75 deep
  So it looks like the cars used the shallow bell from the beginning in 58.
Also the the centerforce PP clearance problem on my C3AA bell wasn't in the area of the hump on the C5AA/C6OA bells but in the area of where the clutch fork passes thru,gwnigard was your Mcleod PP an 11.5/12"?If so did it clear the MG bell without grinding?
« Last Edit: January 19, 2021, 01:20:10 AM by 427John »

427John

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Re: Ford MG9394 Bellhousing
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2021, 03:25:50 AM »
One other casting for early use that I've seen pictures of that has at least 2 different casting numbers one marked CAK 6394 A ,the other marked CRAK 6394 A appear to be a casting with accommodation for the clutch fork hole and pivot on either side.The pictures of the one marked CAK had the fork hole and fulcrum on the driver side and the one marked CRAK had the fork hole and fulcrum on the pass. side,possibly the meaning of the R in the casting was for right?Also the casting dates start with 8 maybe 58 since its early bolt pattern and deep starter pocket.Anybody know of an app,from that era (late 50's)that would use a pass. side mounted clutch linkage?UK or Australia?Did any rigs over or down there use FE's?Anyone wanting to see a pic of the CRAK bell can view it on mustangtek.com on their bellhousings tab down towards the bottom of the list.The pics I saw of the CAK bell on a google search showed the inside where you could clearly see the bosses for the fulcrum mount on both sides. I would link the pics here if I knew how.

thatdarncat

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Re: Ford MG9394 Bellhousing
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2021, 07:53:53 AM »
One other casting for early use that I've seen pictures of that has at least 2 different casting numbers one marked CAK 6394 A ,the other marked CRAK 6394 A appear to be a casting with accommodation for the clutch fork hole and pivot on either side.The pictures of the one marked CAK had the fork hole and fulcrum on the driver side and the one marked CRAK had the fork hole and fulcrum on the pass. side,possibly the meaning of the R in the casting was for right?Also the casting dates start with 8 maybe 58 since its early bolt pattern and deep starter pocket.Anybody know of an app,from that era (late 50's)that would use a pass. side mounted clutch linkage?UK or Australia?Did any rigs over or down there use FE's?Anyone wanting to see a pic of the CRAK bell can view it on mustangtek.com on their bellhousings tab down towards the bottom of the list.The pics I saw of the CAK bell on a google search showed the inside where you could clearly see the bosses for the fulcrum mount on both sides. I would link the pics here if I knew how.

Link to the discussion and pictures of the CAK-6394-A bellhousing:

https://www.fordmuscleforums.com/threads/bellhousing-id.580578/
Kevin Rolph

1967 Cougar Drag Car ( under constuction )
1966 7 litre Galaxie
1966 Country Squire 390
1966 Cyclone GT 390
1968 Torino GT 390
1972 Gran Torino wagon
1978 Lincoln Mk V

427John

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Re: Ford MG9394 Bellhousing
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2021, 02:40:52 PM »
Thanks Kevin,hopefully someone will know what the the use of the pass. side clutch linkage is.

427John

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Re: Ford MG9394 Bellhousing
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2021, 11:42:31 PM »
No guesses as to the reason for a late 50's FE bellhousing with right side clutch linkage?It also has external ribbing so maybe a HD application?Anybody know of any FE powered agricultural equipment from that era,bale wagon, combine something else.

Rory428

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Re: Ford MG9394 Bellhousing
« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2021, 01:51:35 PM »
427John, do you have any photos of the FE bellhousing with right side clutch linkage? I have never heard of such a thing, although many of the Australian 59 style "Tank" Fairlanes had 332s, although I didn`t know if they were available with a manual transmission. I would have to think trying to engineer a clutch fork setup to fit past the long shaft starter motor, not to mention the RHD steering box would be rather challenging, to say the least.
1978 Fairmont,FE 427 with 428 crank, 4 speed Jerico best of 9.972@132.54MPH 1.29 60 foot
1985 Mustang HB 331 SB Ford, 4 speed Jerico, best of 10.29@128 MPH 1.40 60 foot.
1974 F350 race car hauler 390 NP435 4 speed
1959 Ford Meteor 2 dr sedan. 428 Cobra Jet, 4 speed Toploader. 12.54@ 108 MPH

thatdarncat

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Re: Ford MG9394 Bellhousing
« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2021, 04:02:54 PM »
427John, do you have any photos of the FE bellhousing with right side clutch linkage? I have never heard of such a thing, although many of the Australian 59 style "Tank" Fairlanes had 332s, although I didn`t know if they were available with a manual transmission. I would have to think trying to engineer a clutch fork setup to fit past the long shaft starter motor, not to mention the RHD steering box would be rather challenging, to say the least.

Here’s a picture of the CAK-6394-A one in the link I shared above. It has a flat on the passenger side that could be opened up, and a provision for a clutch fork pivot.

Kevin Rolph

1967 Cougar Drag Car ( under constuction )
1966 7 litre Galaxie
1966 Country Squire 390
1966 Cyclone GT 390
1968 Torino GT 390
1972 Gran Torino wagon
1978 Lincoln Mk V

427John

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Re: Ford MG9394 Bellhousing
« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2021, 10:00:43 PM »
In this pic you can see clearly that the rivets for the fulcrum are on the right side and that the left side is is undrilled.Unfortunately there is no other view of it showing the fork hole or the inside but this leaves little room for other conclusions.

427John

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Re: Ford MG9394 Bellhousing
« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2021, 10:14:29 PM »
Just googled the australian fairlane and according to wikipedia it was manufactured 59-62 with a 332 FE the custom 300 and ranch wagon came with 3 speed manual as standard the fairlane 500 came with auto so depending how accurate that info is maybe mystery solved.

gwingard

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Re: Ford MG9394 Bellhousing
« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2021, 05:36:30 PM »
Sorry to be so long in getting back on track with this topic.  To answer 427John's question, "gwingard was your Mcleod PP an 11.5/12? If so did it clear the MG bell without grinding?"  My Mcleod PP is an 11 incher.  I didn't do any grinding to make it fit.  This PP did hit on my factory C3AA6394 A bellhousing.  What a nightmare!  I'm really happy that I was able to make the MG9394 work.  Hopefully it keeps working as my clutch wears!

427John

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Re: Ford MG9394 Bellhousing
« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2021, 06:46:44 PM »
Thats weird an 11" PP should have fit in the C3AA bell no problem since thats what they came with originally.Maybe the way Mcleod makes their PP takes up a little more room when installed,or your C3AA bell had a little casting flash in the wrong spot.You had me excited there for a minute thinking that a 11.5 PP would fit in them.

gwingard

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Re: Ford MG9394 Bellhousing
« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2021, 05:33:03 PM »
To say I was surprised that the Mcleod didn't fit my original bell would be an understatement.  Like a dope I failed to turn the motor over by hand when I first assembled the clutch and transmission.  When I went to start it for the first time the motor turned about 30 degrees and locked up which damaged the trust surfaces on my brand new main bearings.  Was an expensive mistake I'll never make again...

TomP

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Re: Ford MG9394 Bellhousing
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2021, 12:43:36 AM »
That CRAK bellhousing is a shocker. I could have sworn they had a left side fork and Z bar and a crazy mechanical linkage with a tube across the firewall to operate it in the diagrams and pictures i've seen. The column shift rods had two tubes across the firewall so there was a bunch of crossshafts on the firewall plus the wiring and brake line.

Was there maybe manual trannies with right side levers?

427John

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Re: Ford MG9394 Bellhousing
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2021, 08:15:06 PM »
The Aussie application is just speculation,it could be for something else altogether such as agricultural (combine or balewagon),it just seemed right hand drive could be a possible explanation.I was guessing that the R in the CRAK vs CAK prefix indicated right hand drive.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2021, 01:50:50 AM by 427John »

TomP

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Re: Ford MG9394 Bellhousing
« Reply #38 on: February 25, 2021, 12:24:04 AM »
I would think it must mean Right as well. I Googled for pictres of an Aussue 59 Ford ... tried every slang term, "tank Fairlane" etc, and all are frickin' slushboxes. I fugured there must be one for sale with a Bring-a-Trailer style ad with 200 pictures.